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EPMD
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Jan 2017
Location:
Posts: 24

Scotties - Down 5 with hammer after 8

Three times, BC has trailed by 5, with hammer, with two ends to play, and they've resorted to handshakes every time.

Would you quit at that point?

I'd at least want to play the 9th, score a couple of points, and leave with a touch of positive momentum. Maybe I'm too optimistic, but I'd hate to give up when scoring 3 and stealing 2 still seems possible to me. This is a tough tournament to get to, you work your ass off to get there, and then you leave the ice early any chance you get?

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Old Post 02-23-17 12:53PM
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Squiggsy
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Registered: Apr 2008
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Let's look at the BC/Manitoba game. BC scored two points in 8 ends. Both were singles with the hammer. Now they are suddenly going to get 6 points in 3 ends against the #2 team at the Scotties? Let's say they get 3 in 9. What are the possibilities they steal 2 in 10, and then steal the extra end? They hadn't stolen a point all game.

The other two games were similar. I'm not sure how many times at the Scotties a team was down 5 with 2 to play, and won. I would guess that number is zero, but I'd be interested to read the game summary from any game that happened in. Alberta was up five on Nova Scotia and lost, but that was after 5 ends.

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Old Post 02-23-17 01:12PM
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nelsosi
Swing Artist

Registered: Mar 2012
Location: YYZ, Canada
Posts: 420

quote:
Originally posted by Squiggsy
I'm not sure how many times at the Scotties a team was down 5 with 2 to play, and won. I would guess that number is zero,

I'd be willing to bet it is not zero.
But I guarantee it's zero if you shake

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Old Post 02-23-17 01:24PM
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Squiggsy
Swing Artist

Registered: Apr 2008
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quote:
Originally posted by nelsosi

I'd be willing to bet it is not zero.
But I guarantee it's zero if you shake



I just went and looked at the boxscores for the Scotties from 2010-2017. In those years, no team came back from a five point deficit after 8 ends to win. None of them even forced an extra end. The biggest comeback after 8 ends was 4, and done a couple times. McCarville did it last year against Brothers, by taking 2 with hammer in 9, stealing 2 in 10, and stealing the extra end.

I'm still pretty confident no team has ever come back from a 5 point deficit after 8 ends in a Scotties. Feel free to prove me wrong.

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Old Post 02-23-17 02:17PM
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Clappy
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Feb 2017
Location: Livonia, MI
Posts: 34

I guess you'll never come back from 5 down if you're always resigning.

I would have at least started the 9th end and seen if scoring 3 was possible. No sense in throwing equity away.

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Old Post 02-23-17 02:50PM
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guido
Drawmaster

Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 853

quote:
Originally posted by Clappy
I guess you'll never come back from 5 down if you're always resigning.

I would have at least started the 9th end and seen if scoring 3 was possible. No sense in throwing equity away.


The idea of the early handshake was a sportsmanship move. 5 down with 2 to play seems to be the deadline, 4 down if you don't have hammer. In a week long tourney, with a 1-9 record, it would be foolish and unsportsmanlike to continue. Now if the score happened to be be 25-20 , maybe a different story.

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Old Post 02-23-17 04:23PM
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Gerry
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Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
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Dating back to 2009/10 season, women's teams are 3-1342 when down 5 with 2 ends to play. None of those wins has come in the National Scotties.

2016 NWT Scotties:
http://www.curlingzone.com/game.php...owgameid=177164

2015 Fort Rouge Ladies Classic
http://www.curlingzone.com/game.php...owgameid=165686

2014 Cloverdale Cashspiel
http://www.curlingzone.com/game.php...owgameid=142657

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Old Post 02-23-17 04:42PM
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Squiggsy
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Registered: Apr 2008
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Thanks for the stats, Gerry.

Oh my. Those are soul crushing. At least the MB and BC ones involved 4 non playoff teams. The NWT game got her into a provincial final, where she was also down by 5 with 2 to play.

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Old Post 02-23-17 04:56PM
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decade
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Jan 2011
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Posts: 1426

Give MM a break, It is likely her swan song and she is giving the youngsters some much needed experience,

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Old Post 02-23-17 05:12PM
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Manitoba Legend
Supreme Champion!

Registered: Jan 2009
Location: Hovel of Fame
Posts: 10869

Sunny Ways!


at least Marla & Co. came out to compete, play hard and enjoy the great experience of a Tournament of Hearts!

Feel real bad for Shannon Aleksic though - one of the great ladies of BC Curling - having to go thru this type of thing!

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Old Post 02-23-17 06:52PM
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On The Nose
Swing Artist

Registered: Apr 2014
Location: In the House
Posts: 355

Is there another sport in which one team concedes when significantly behind? I can't think of any...
In some golf competitions, a player can concede a hole - but that's different from conceding a game.

In baseball, if it's 21 - 0, they still play all 9 innings (or 8 1/2 if the home team is ahead)...
In hockey, if it's 10-0, they still play until time expires - even if it's quite impossible for a team to score 10 goals in the last 5 minutes, they still play the last 5 minutes...
In tennis, if it's 6-0, 5-0 for Player A, they still play out the match...
In all other sports I can think of, it's the same - there is no conceding.

But in curling, it is considered 'sportsmanlike' to quit.
I don't like that.
I'd prefer if everyone played until you don't have enough rocks remaining to score the number of points you require.

I was down by 5 after 7 ends the other night (in an 8 end game)... I decided to play the 8th end (with the Hammer). When my Third disagreed, I simply said "Have you ever scored 5 in an end?" He said "Yeah." I said "I rest my case - we play on."
No - we didn't win - but we tried. I think giving an honest effort should be considered more 'sportsmanlike' than quitting. Calling someone 'unsportsmanlike' for trying their best seems quite wrong.
As others have said - if you shake hands, you are guaranteed a loss. If you continue, you at least give yourself a chance - even a small chance is better than no chance.

Perhaps teams began conceding in curling in part because ice time is important, and they didn't want games enduring an extra 10 - 15 minutes when it's unlikely to change the outcome, making the next draw start late.
In any case - I still say 'play until it's impossible to win' - in all sports.

__________________
"It is easy in the world to live after the world’s opinion; it is easy in solitude to live after our own... but the great man is he who, in the midst of the crowd, keeps with perfect sweetness the independence of solitude." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

Last edited by On The Nose on 02-24-17 at 02:53AM

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Old Post 02-24-17 12:50AM
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curlky
Drawmaster

Registered: Oct 2013
Location:
Posts: 501

quote:
Originally posted by On The Nose
Is there another sport in which one team concedes when significantly behind? I can't think of any...
In some golf competitions, a player can concede a hole - but that's different from conceding a game.

.. I was down by 5 after 7 ends the other night (in an 8 end game)... I decided to play the 8th end (with the Hammer). When my Third disagreed, I simply said "Have you ever scored 5 in an end?" He said "Yeah." I said "I rest my case - we play on."


…Perhaps teams began conceding in curling in part because ice time is important, and they didn't want games enduring an extra 10 - 15 minutes when it's unlikely to change the outcome, making the next draw start late.
In any case - I still say 'play until it's impossible to win' - in all sports.



Well, there are some caveats to this. In most US professional and amateur team sports, while teams don’t concede, they do bench the starters and start playing the reserves who never get to play. At this point they have given up the concept of winning. This doesn’t really apply to curling, but I think it is similar to what is routinely done in curling

As for you have you scored 5 before analogy, I would ask a modified question, have you scored 5 before when you needed 5, in other words gone into an end with a plan to score 5 and then you got 5? Doubtful. Truthfully you don’t even plan on getting three, you plan for 2, and hope to get a mistake to get to 3. Big ends rarely happen, but they will be more likely to happen with a closer score, or early in the game. When the team up 5 knows you need 5, they will modify their strategy, essentially willing to concede 1 or 2, but to guarantee that you don’t score more. This strategy change is a huge thing, as not the team ahead doesn’t have to throw hard shots (doubles/angle raises/come arounds) they just throw the easy peel or take out. Maybe at your club, or at a fun spiel simple hits are often missed, but at a national level event, rarely do you have flashes of stones especially maybe 2 in an end you would need to score that many.

So why in curling do you concede? If it is a bonspiel, many times its because there are more games to play in a short period, and conserving energy is a thing. Saving your front end some energy in the tank for the next match can go a long way. Take the Scotties, 11 draws in a week is a lot. As for other reasons, you look at down 5 after 8, and say get 2 in the 9th and then concede. If you are down 5 at that point, it is probably more likely that you give up 1 or 2 versus score the deuce. Do perhaps to save the teams energy, you concede to prevent further demoralization. Most people at some point of losing badly get demoralized and just want the suffering to end.

If it is a league night, I see no hardm in playing out the ends until you run out of time or run out of rocks. Maybe you just want to go have a beer.

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Old Post 02-24-17 11:45AM
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Squiggsy
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Registered: Apr 2008
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Posts: 246

quote:
Originally posted by On The Nose
Is there another sport in which one team concedes when significantly behind? I can't think of any...
In some golf competitions, a player can concede a hole - but that's different from conceding a game.



In golf you can concede a putt, shot, hole, match, or an entire tournament between countries, as long as it's match play. You can concede in MMA by tapping out. In boxing the boxer can quit at any time, or his/her corner can throw in the towel.

quote:
Originally posted by On The Nose

In baseball, if it's 21 - 0, they still play all 9 innings (or 8 1/2 if the home team is ahead)...
In hockey, if it's 10-0, they still play until time expires - even if it's quite impossible for a team to score 10 goals in the last 5 minutes, they still play the last 5 minutes...
In tennis, if it's 6-0, 5-0 for Player A, they still play out the match...
In all other sports I can think of, it's the same - there is no conceding.

But in curling, it is considered 'sportsmanlike' to quit.
I don't like that.
I'd prefer if everyone played until you don't have enough rocks remaining to score the number of points you require.




In Little League, and other leagues, if you are up by 10 after the completion of an inning, the game ends, even at the Little League World Series level.

The difference between curling and hockey, is you play for a set time. Curling plays to a set number of rocks.

You can play however you want, but you won't make many friends, including ones on your own team, by playing the last end down 5, especially on the late draw on a Tuesday night.

quote:
Originally posted by On The Nose


I was down by 5 after 7 ends the other night (in an 8 end game)... I decided to play the 8th end (with the Hammer). When my Third disagreed, I simply said "Have you ever scored 5 in an end?" He said "Yeah." I said "I rest my case - we play on."
No - we didn't win - but we tried. I think giving an honest effort should be considered more 'sportsmanlike' than quitting. Calling someone 'unsportsmanlike' for trying their best seems quite wrong.
As others have said - if you shake hands, you are guaranteed a loss. If you continue, you at least give yourself a chance - even a small chance is better than no chance.



Many curlers have taken a five. Heck, I took five on Tuesday. A few even have taken an eight. How many of those are in the last end, when down by five? None. You likely have some skill to be up by five, so removing four rocks in the last end, knowing you don't need anymore points, is fairly easy. There's a huge difference between taking a five in the second end, and taking five in the last end. They are different scenarios, which don't play out anywhere near the same.

quote:
Originally posted by On The Nose


Perhaps teams began conceding in curling in part because ice time is important, and they didn't want games enduring an extra 10 - 15 minutes when it's unlikely to change the outcome, making the next draw start late.
In any case - I still say 'play until it's impossible to win' - in all sports.



Being down five in the last end is impossible to win. Even if you have a mathematical chance, it's still impossible. There's no shame in conceding a match when it's not your day. It's courteous to all players to do so. You're making it sound like it's seppuku to quit. If you're down 12-1, with 2 ends to play, it really doesn't make sense to play the last 2. In fact it makes more sense to concede the game, and throw 20 minutes of practice rocks. That will make you a better curler. If you made me stay on the ice to play the 8th (10th) end, and you're down 5, there's zero chance I buy you a drink after the game.

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Old Post 02-24-17 11:59AM
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nelsosi
Swing Artist

Registered: Mar 2012
Location: YYZ, Canada
Posts: 420

quote:
Originally posted by Squiggsy
You can concede in MMA by tapping out. In boxing the boxer can quit at any time, or his/her corner can throw in the towel.

Those rules are in place to prevent people from dying. Has nothing to do with sportsmanship.



quote:
Originally posted by Squiggsy
In Little League, and other leagues, if you are up by 10 after the completion of an inning, the game ends, even at the Little League World Series level.

We're talking about 12 year old kids here.


quote:
Originally posted by Squiggsy
If you made me stay on the ice to play the 8th (10th) end, and you're down 5, there's zero chance I buy you a drink after the game.

I know some club curlers who will not concede a game. Period. Maybe they play only once a week, and they want the ice time. It could have nothing to do with thinking they could still win; they just want to play. I have no problem with that thought process at all.

Also some club leagues use 'ends won' as standings tiebreakers. When you shake, you lose the remaining ends.

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Old Post 02-24-17 12:10PM
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Squiggsy
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Registered: Apr 2008
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Posts: 246

quote:
Originally posted by nelsosi

Those rules are in place to prevent people from dying. Has nothing to do with sportsmanship.



Dying? That's a little dramatic. Hurt? Absolutely. There are times in MMA where a guy is in an arm bar or a choke. There is zero possibility he can get out of it, so he concedes. It's a little different than curling, but the whole sport is different. He asked if there were any others. I gave examples. If you want another one, then I'll go with cricket.

quote:
Originally posted by nelsosi

We're talking about 12 year old kids here.



Correct. That's why I said Little League. Even at the Olympics if a team is down by 10 runs the game is over. Those aren't 12 year old kids.

For more examples, let's look at NCAA football. If there is mutual agreement by the coaches for a game that's gotten out of hand, the quarters can be shortened and played with a running clock. Usually they get shortened by five minutes. The game isn't stopped at half time, but they get it over with as quickly as possible.

quote:
Originally posted by nelsosi

Also some club leagues use 'ends won' as standings tiebreakers. When you shake, you lose the remaining ends.



That's true, and if that were the case I'd play as well. That's not the case at the Scotties, nor does it sound like it was the case in On The Nose's game.

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Old Post 02-24-17 12:51PM
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On The Nose
Swing Artist

Registered: Apr 2014
Location: In the House
Posts: 355

quote:
Originally posted by Squiggsy

Being down five in the last end is impossible to win. Even if you have a mathematical chance, it's still impossible. There's no shame in conceding a match when it's not your day. It's courteous to all players to do so. You're making it sound like it's seppuku to quit. If you're down 12-1, with 2 ends to play, it really doesn't make sense to play the last 2. In fact it makes more sense to concede the game, and throw 20 minutes of practice rocks. That will make you a better curler. If you made me stay on the ice to play the 8th (10th) end, and you're down 5, there's zero chance I buy you a drink after the game.


No, taking 5 in the last end obviously is not "impossible" (as you contradictorily mention when you state that there is still a mathematical chance). I can guarantee that teams have scored 5 in the last end several times in the history of curling.
It's not likely, of course, but it is certainly possible. It's more possible at the club level than at the elite level, naturally, because it requires a few errors by the team that's ahead - and that's more likely to happen at the club level.

Hell, according to your explanation, no 8 enders should ever be scored, either - because the other team will surely manage to make at least one take-out in the end. But 8 enders do happen, obviously. And when they occur, it is in large part due to errors from the other team - errors in execution and in strategy.
And so 8 enders are possible. Just as scoring 5 in the last end is possible.

In any case, my point in writing my post was more toward the idea that conceding is considered 'more sportsmanlike' than trying one's best and giving an honest effort to the very end. The very nature of sport is to give 100% to the very end, is it not? Conceding out of 'convenience' seems to be the antithesis of this.

__________________
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Old Post 02-24-17 05:47PM
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curlky
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Registered: Oct 2013
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quote:
Originally posted by On The Nose
The very nature of sport is to give 100% to the very end, is it not?


No, I dont think so

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milobloom
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Registered: Mar 2005
Location: St. Albert
Posts: 817

Ron Northcott on the most recent Curling Legends Podcast relayed a Brier story where in the first draw of the Brier, the team they were playing wanted to concede, but the Brier officials said they couldn't (play every end). They ended up losing the game (granted they lost the ice due to mechanical problem). There was some discussion that all teams might actually replay the 1st draw, but it was decided to let it stand.

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Old Post 02-25-17 10:38AM
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rick8end
Swing Artist

Registered: Nov 2014
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 202

Rachel Homan was down by 4 with two ends to go the other night and she shook hands. Where's the outrage at that? There should be none by the way.

B.C. was just not a very good team this year. If they chose to quit after 8 ends to save energy, or because they knew it was hopeless given the talent discrepancy, or because they were just plain down emotionally, that's their businesss. There is nothing wrong with that.

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Old Post 02-25-17 10:50AM
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Squiggsy
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Registered: Apr 2008
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quote:
Originally posted by On The Nose

No, taking 5 in the last end obviously is not "impossible" (as you contradictorily mention when you state that there is still a mathematical chance). I can guarantee that teams have scored 5 in the last end several times in the history of curling.
It's not likely, of course, but it is certainly possible. It's more possible at the club level than at the elite level, naturally, because it requires a few errors by the team that's ahead - and that's more likely to happen at the club level.




I did not contradict myself. There is a mathematical chance that five children from Ethiopia could beat the Golden State Warriors in a game of basketball played with NBA rules. In reality, it's impossible for those five children to win the game. Impossible.

Teams may have scored 5 points in the last end several times, but none of those times come when they've been down by 5 points. Gerry even posted stats that showed women's teams were 3-1342 when down 5 with two to play, but none of those teams were down 5 with one to play. Until you can prove that a team was down five in the last end, and scored a 5+ ender, your point is moot.

quote:
Originally posted by On The Nose



Hell, according to your explanation, no 8 enders should ever be scored, either - because the other team will surely manage to make at least one take-out in the end. But 8 enders do happen, obviously. And when they occur, it is in large part due to errors from the other team - errors in execution and in strategy.
And so 8 enders are possible. Just as scoring 5 in the last end is possible.



I'm guessing curling strategy isn't your strong point. It's likely why you were down 5, and also why you thought you could still tie it. My explanation does not say why an 8 ender should never be scored. There are many situations that arise in curling where it doesn't matter if the other team scores 1 or 8. This is where 8 enders happen. There's no point in hitting an open rock to prevent the 8, when the only thing that will help win the game is to try and bury the rock and steal a point. If a team is up by 5, they aren't going to leave rocks in play. They'll be hitting. The biggest reason for 8 enders is the scoreboard, not errors or strategy.

quote:
Originally posted by On The Nose


In any case, my point in writing my post was more toward the idea that conceding is considered 'more sportsmanlike' than trying one's best and giving an honest effort to the very end. The very nature of sport is to give 100% to the very end, is it not? Conceding out of 'convenience' seems to be the antithesis of this.



This is completely wrong. As was pointed out earlier, it's okay to concede, especially if you are trying to manage your fitness levels for a championship. Why give 100% effort in a meaningless end, when it may harm you in the next end? Marathoners don't sprint right out of the gate, or they won't make it all 26.2 miles. Discretion is the better part of valor. It's not unsportsmanlike to concede. Sometimes it's way more sportsmanlike to concede, and to show respect for the other team.

Here's a prime example: http://bot.curlbc.ca//web/Comp?compid=607

Go to the Herndier vs. Thompson game in the first round of the C event, played in draw 5. After 4, possibly 2 ends, it was clear Thompson was going to lose. The loser of this game is out of playdowns, and the winner has to play at 9:00 am the next morning. After 8 ends, Thompson was down 12-2. They were down 10 points! Their previous two games they lost 10-0, and 4-2. After almost 3 games they had scored 4 points total, but they continued on because they thought they could score 11 points in three ends. That's ridiculous. The other team still needs to eat supper, and they play again the next morning. As a competitor, you need to respect the competition, and let them go get rest. This isn't a junior's game or Nunavut's first time at a national championship. It was extremely unsportsmanlike to continue playing. She has a habit of doing that, including when she's out of rocks and it is mathematically impossible for her to win.

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Old Post 02-25-17 11:54AM
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EPMD
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Jan 2017
Location:
Posts: 24

quote:
Originally posted by Squiggsy
It was extremely unsportsmanlike to continue playing.

Why does the losing team have a responsibility to help out just that one leading team with their tournament fitness? What about the other teams not playing in that game? Aren't they disadvantaged if the leading team gets to take time off that they don't get themselves? You could argue that the losing team has just as much responsibility to the rest of the field to give the leading team a hard fight...even if that fight is inevitably a losing one.

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Old Post 02-25-17 12:11PM
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On The Nose
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Registered: Apr 2014
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Posts: 355

quote:
Originally posted by Squiggsy


I did not contradict myself.


Of course you did.
You're obviously unfamiliar with the definition of 'impossible'... You seem to believe it means 'extremely unlikely'.

quote:
Originally posted by Squiggsy
There is a mathematical chance that five children from Ethiopia could beat the Golden State Warriors in a game of basketball played with NBA rules. In reality, it's impossible for those five children to win the game. Impossible.

Well... in the history of curling, some teams have scored 5 in the last end when they were 5 down. Perhaps it's never occurred at what we refer to as the 'elite level' - at least not in a documented game... but it has certainly occurred at the club level. Ergo - not impossible... ergo, history proves that you are wrong.

quote:
Originally posted by Squiggsy
Teams may have scored 5 points in the last end several times, but none of those times come when they've been down by 5 points. Gerry even posted stats that showed women's teams were 3-1342 when down 5 with two to play, but none of those teams were down 5 with one to play. Until you can prove that a team was down five in the last end, and scored a 5+ ender, your point is moot.

See above.
Obviously, I don't have documented proof - both because club games are not typically documented, and because I don't have access to whatever little documentation may exist. But common sense dictates that it has happened several times.


quote:
Originally posted by Squiggsy
I'm guessing curling strategy isn't your strong point. It's likely why you were down 5, and also why you thought you could still tie it.

Are you 14 years old?
In any case, that loss was our only loss of the round. In the A section.

quote:
Originally posted by Squiggsy
My explanation does not say why an 8 ender should never be scored. There are many situations that arise in curling where it doesn't matter if the other team scores 1 or 8. This is where 8 enders happen. There's no point in hitting an open rock to prevent the 8, when the only thing that will help win the game is to try and bury the rock and steal a point. If a team is up by 5, they aren't going to leave rocks in play. They'll be hitting. The biggest reason for 8 enders is the scoreboard, not errors or strategy.

8 enders will not occur without several errors from the other team, and a likely error in their strategy at some point in the end. The score may or may not play a role. I'm sure that some 8 enders have been scored in the 1st end...
And to score 5 in the last end when 5 down is possible, as well. It will take errors from the other team - and errors in both execution and strategy are certainly possible at the club level. Throw in a pick, and, well... it's possible to score 5.

quote:
Originally posted by Squiggsy
This is completely wrong.

No, it's not wrong, because this portion of my post is an opinion. Disagree all you like - but it doesn't make your opinion more 'right' than is mine.

quote:
Originally posted by Squiggsy
As was pointed out earlier, it's okay to concede, especially if you are trying to manage your fitness levels for a championship. Why give 100% effort in a meaningless end, when it may harm you in the next end?

I assume you mean game, not end...
Nonetheless, what if a team simply wants to continue? What if they are not inclined to give up until there is no mathematical chance to come back? What if they have no desire to ''conserve energy'? (realistically, playing one additional end usually won't exhaust players to the point of affecting their next game - but I digress...) What if the team thrives on competition? What if the Skip wants one more end to assess how his/her team is playing? What if the Skip wants to see how the team reacts psychologically/emotionally in the circumstance of being down with little chance to win?
Why should the wishes and wants of the team that is ahead take priority over the wants and wishes of the team that's behind?

quote:
Originally posted by Squiggsy
Marathoners don't sprint right out of the gate, or they won't make it all 26.2 miles. Discretion is the better part of valor.

Marathoners don't typically quit before the end of the race just because they can't win, either. And they are in a position where, after the winner crosses the finish line, it is actually impossible (look up the definition of 'impossible') for any other runner to win - and still, they don't quit (unless they are in extreme physical distress).

quote:
Originally posted by Squiggsy
It's not unsportsmanlike to concede. Sometimes it's way more sportsmanlike to concede, and to show respect for the other team.

I don't necessarily have a problem with teams conceding - it's their decision, and their business. What I have a problem with is people like you who are critical of teams who don't concede, and who want to compete and give an honest effort to the very end.
Though I don't have a particular problem with teams who concede, given the two scenarios, I'll have more respect for the team that decides to fight to the end - which is something that is considered admirable in just about every other sport.

In tennis currently, Nick Kyrgios has a terrible reputation of being unsportsmanlike. Why? Because he stops trying when he's behind in a match. Because conceding is not permitted in tennis, he simply stops giving 100%, and gives only 40% effort. Because of this, the majority opinion is that he lacks respect for both his opponents and for the game.
Interesting, isn't it, how, in curling, this same 'giving up attitude' is considered 'respectful' and 'sportsmanlike' by some.

If a tennis player who is losing badly continues to give 100% effort to the end of the match, it is considered admirable. It is certainly NOT considered disrespectful for making his opponent play until the end, and thus get more tired for his next match. It would be considered absurd - and very unsportsmanlike - if a tennis player stopped giving 100%, or gave up, so that his opponent could have time to have a proper dinner and/or so his opponent could rest or 'conserve energy' for his next match. In pretty much any sport, this behaviour would be considered absurd, and would not be respected. Except in curling, where the tradition is to give up, and where continuing to give 100% to the end is somehow considered 'disrespectful' by some.
Very strange...

quote:
Originally posted by Squiggsy
She has a habit of doing that, including when she's out of rocks and it is mathematically impossible for her to win.

We may actually agree on something here...
I agree that it lacks respect for the winning team when the losing team insists on continuing the game after they have lost all mathematical chance of winning.
When a team has no mathematical chance of winning (not enough rocks remaining to score the required points), and the team which is behind still wants to continue playing it out until the end (for whatever reason), the respectful thing to do is to ask the other team if they mind continuing - and allow the other team's decision to dictate whether the game ends there or whether it continues.

__________________
"It is easy in the world to live after the world’s opinion; it is easy in solitude to live after our own... but the great man is he who, in the midst of the crowd, keeps with perfect sweetness the independence of solitude." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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guido
Drawmaster

Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 853

An 8 Enders can be scored with both teams curling 100% AND proper strategy

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BDure
Harvey Hacksmasher

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Well, I think we're about to see another example (although it would be w/o hammer, and it depends on getting two in the 8th).

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guido
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Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 853

Just lost a little bit of respect

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