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Squiggsy
Swing Artist

Registered: Apr 2008
Location:
Posts: 246

Since the direct berths into the pre-trials were all won by teams that qualified directly to the ROTR, the first 10 teams are the top 10 teams on the 2016-17 CTRS, not already in the trials.

Before adjustments, they are:
1. Morris
2. Bottcher
3. Thomas
4. Howard
5. Dunstone
6. Gunnlaugson
7. Balsdon
8. Casey
9. Korte
10 Deruelle

Dunstone left his team to join Laycock. Jason Gunnlaugson has left his team, and take over Dunstone's team, so #5 actually becomes Dunstone. Pat Simmons has taken over Jason's team, so #6 is now Simmons.

Spots 11 & 12 go to two year CTRS points leaders, not already qualified. They are:
1. Lyburn
2. Bice

Unless teams reorganize, the 12 teams at pre-trials should be:

1. Morris
2. Bottcher
3. Thomas
4. Howard
5. Gunnlaugson
6. Simmons
7. Balsdon
8. Casey
9. Korte
10 Deruelle
11. Lyburn
12. Bice

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Old Post 05-01-17 05:21PM
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UnattachedFC
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Jan 2016
Location:
Posts: 99

quote:
Originally posted by Squiggsy
Since the direct berths into the pre-trials were all won by teams that qualified directly to the ROTR, the first 10 teams are the top 10 teams on the 2016-17 CTRS, not already in the trials.

Before adjustments, they are:
1. Morris
2. Bottcher
3. Thomas
4. Howard
5. Dunstone
6. Gunnlaugson
7. Balsdon
8. Casey
9. Korte
10 Deruelle

Dunstone left his team to join Laycock. Jason Gunnlaugson has left his team, and take over Dunstone's team, so #5 actually becomes Dunstone. Pat Simmons has taken over Jason's team, so #6 is now Simmons.

Spots 11 & 12 go to two year CTRS points leaders, not already qualified. They are:
1. Lyburn
2. Bice

Unless teams reorganize, the 12 teams at pre-trials should be:

1. Morris
2. Bottcher
3. Thomas
4. Howard
5. Gunnlaugson
6. Simmons
7. Balsdon
8. Casey
9. Korte
10 Deruelle
11. Lyburn
12. Bice



You're wrong. Just read highest ranked team not already qualified for the Trials or Pre-Trials.

http://www.curling.ca/blog/2015/05/...rings-unveiled/

1. Winners 2014 Home Hardware Canada Cup (Now top 2016-17 not yet qualified): Morris
2. Highest ranked team on the 2014–15 CTRS not already qualified for the Trials or Pre-Trials : Bottcher (Howard is higher, but changed team in the process)
3. Highest ranked team on the 2015–16 CTRS not already qualified for the Trials or Pre-Trials: Howard
4. Highest ranked team on the 2015–16 CTRS not already qualified for the Trials or Pre-Trials: Thomas
5. Highest ranked team on the 2015–16 CTRS not already qualified for the Trials or Pre-Trials: Lyburn (Meachem is higher but has a new team)
6. Highest ranked team on the 2015–16 CTRS not already qualified for the Trials or Pre-Trials: Menard
7. Highest ranked team on the 2016–17 CTRS not already qualified for the Trials or Pre-Trials: Gunnlaugson (formerly known as team Dunstone)
8. Highest ranked team on the 2016–17 CTRS not already qualified for the Trials or Pre-Trials: Simmons (formerly known as team Gunnlaugson)
9. Highest ranked team on the 2016–17 CTRS not already qualified for the Trials or Pre-Trials: Balsdon
10. Highest ranked team on the 2016–17 CTRS not already qualified for the Trials or Pre-Trials: Casey
11. Highest ranked team on the 2015–17 (two years) CTRS not already qualified for the Trials or Pre-Trials: Lyburn
12. Highest ranked team on the 2015–17 (two years) CTRS not already qualified for the Trials or Pre-Trials: Bice

I think Korte would have qualified had hteir team stayed together but they didn't.

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Old Post 05-01-17 06:24PM
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Squiggsy
Swing Artist

Registered: Apr 2008
Location:
Posts: 246

quote:
Originally posted by UnattachedFC


You're wrong. Just read highest ranked team not already qualified for the Trials or Pre-Trials.



I think I see where I made my mistake. From here: http://www.curling.ca/team-canada/2...cation-process/

The Curling Canada site slotted in McEwen, Jacobs, Koe, Gushue, McEwen, Carruthers into spots 1-6 for the pre-trials. They said that should a team win more than one berth, or already have qualified, then it goes to the 2016-17 CTRS ranking. I looked and saw that the names were already in there, that they go to this year's rankings. I missed the line where it says not already qualified. I'm not sure why Curling Canada has their names in those slots. I would have thought Curling Canada would have published these in an easy to see, readily accessible format for the public, but I guess not. Many in the media didn't even know Carey had the women's two year spot, because it wasn't that clear to them. Thanks for the clarification.

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Old Post 05-01-17 09:43PM
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IN-OFF-FOR-2
Swing Artist

Registered: Mar 2013
Location:
Posts: 420

Does anyone have the definitive answer or just speculation?

Who is OFFICIALLY in the trials and pretrials?

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Old Post 05-02-17 11:06PM
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UnattachedFC
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Jan 2016
Location:
Posts: 99

quote:
Originally posted by IN-OFF-FOR-2
Does anyone have the definitive answer or just speculation?

Who is OFFICIALLY in the trials and pretrials?



The names I've put are the teams that would be in as it stands and if the teams stay together (at least 3 out of the 4 members) It's not official until Curling Canada announces it next week.

For the trials. The first 7 teams have been named: Carruthers, Epping, Gushue, Jacobs, Koe, Laycock and McEwen for the men. Carey, Englot, Flaxey Homan, Jones, Scheidegger Sweeting for the women.

http://www.curling.ca/blog/2017/05/...ings-in-ottawa/

Curling Canada was supposed to name the next 12 teams today. They haven't, but I fully expect to name them by the end of the week.

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Old Post 05-03-17 01:42AM
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IN-OFF-FOR-2
Swing Artist

Registered: Mar 2013
Location:
Posts: 420

Do we "assume" if any of the teams break up or have less than 3 between now and the pre-trials, that the next qualified team then qualifies?

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Old Post 05-04-17 10:15PM
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Three
Swing Artist

Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 249

quote:
Originally posted by IN-OFF-FOR-2
Do we "assume" if any of the teams break up or have less than 3 between now and the pre-trials, that the next qualified team then qualifies?


Probably. I'm guessing it is taking longer than expected to announce who is going to Summerside because Curling Canada wants a commitment from all the teams that accept an invitation. Idle speculation on my part.

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Old Post 05-05-17 11:54AM
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Three
Swing Artist

Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 249

http://www.curling.ca/blog/2017/05/...rials-unveiled/

Greg Balsdon, Kingston, Ont.
Brendan Bottcher, Edmonton
Adam Casey, Charlottetown/Regina
Dayna Deruelle, Brampton, Ont.
Matt Dunstone, Winnipeg
Jason Gunnlaugson, Winnipeg
Glenn Howard, Penetanguishene, Ont.
Bruce Korte, Saskatoon
William Lyburn, Winnipeg
Jean-Michel Ménard, Gatineau, Que.
John Morris, Kelowna/Vernon, B.C.
Charley Thomas, Calgary

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Old Post 05-05-17 03:12PM
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Lebowski
Knee-Slider

Registered: Feb 2012
Location:
Posts: 4

Looks like Curling Canada forget about Team Bice. Menard could only get a 2 year spot and Bice was ahead of them 241 to 238. What gives?

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Old Post 05-05-17 06:12PM
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Squiggsy
Swing Artist

Registered: Apr 2008
Location:
Posts: 246

quote:
Originally posted by UnattachedFC


You're wrong. Just read highest ranked team not already qualified for the Trials or Pre-Trials.

http://www.curling.ca/blog/2015/05/...rings-unveiled/

1. Winners 2014 Home Hardware Canada Cup (Now top 2016-17 not yet qualified): Morris
2. Highest ranked team on the 2014–15 CTRS not already qualified for the Trials or Pre-Trials : Bottcher (Howard is higher, but changed team in the process)
3. Highest ranked team on the 2015–16 CTRS not already qualified for the Trials or Pre-Trials: Howard
4. Highest ranked team on the 2015–16 CTRS not already qualified for the Trials or Pre-Trials: Thomas
5. Highest ranked team on the 2015–16 CTRS not already qualified for the Trials or Pre-Trials: Lyburn (Meachem is higher but has a new team)
6. Highest ranked team on the 2015–16 CTRS not already qualified for the Trials or Pre-Trials: Menard
7. Highest ranked team on the 2016–17 CTRS not already qualified for the Trials or Pre-Trials: Gunnlaugson (formerly known as team Dunstone)
8. Highest ranked team on the 2016–17 CTRS not already qualified for the Trials or Pre-Trials: Simmons (formerly known as team Gunnlaugson)
9. Highest ranked team on the 2016–17 CTRS not already qualified for the Trials or Pre-Trials: Balsdon
10. Highest ranked team on the 2016–17 CTRS not already qualified for the Trials or Pre-Trials: Casey
11. Highest ranked team on the 2015–17 (two years) CTRS not already qualified for the Trials or Pre-Trials: Lyburn
12. Highest ranked team on the 2015–17 (two years) CTRS not already qualified for the Trials or Pre-Trials: Bice

I think Korte would have qualified had hteir team stayed together but they didn't.



It looks like I wasn't wrong, or "spreading misinformation". They just went straight to the 2016-17 list for slots 1-10. http://www.curling.ca/team-canada/2...cation-process/ My list was correct for spots 1-11. Spot 12 is a mystery to me.

What I think Curling Canada means by "highest ranked team not already qualified for Trial or Pre-Trials" is a team that didn't get a direct berth for winning a specific event. This would be spots 1-4 for the ROTR, and spot 1 for the RTTR. That takes out Koe, Carruthers, and Gushue for the men. The men listed as spots 2-10 for the RTTR are Jacobs, McEwen, Epping and Laycock, all of which are listed multiple times. These are the teams listed at 4-7 for the ROTR, as they got berths handed to them for non-specific events. I believe Gushue would have been on this list as well if he hadn't beat Koe in the final of the 2017 Brier. Although he gets spot #2 in the ROTR, he still won a direct berth. The direct berth doesn't matter for ROTR, as he already got spot #2, but it matters for slotting in spots 1-10 in RTTR.

I still have no idea how Menard gets spot #12 over Bice, unless Bice turned it down.

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Old Post 05-05-17 06:49PM
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Three
Swing Artist

Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 249

Hey Squiggsy, pretty sure you can get very close to the 'right' answer using the 'wrong ' formula because let's face it the CTRS points leaders from two years ago will be very similar to the top of this year's list. I am pretty confident that CurlingCanada did follow their own published rules and did take the highest non-qualified teams from the points list two years ago for those four spots. That is how Menard got in.

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Old Post 05-05-17 07:18PM
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Squiggsy
Swing Artist

Registered: Apr 2008
Location:
Posts: 246

quote:
Originally posted by Three
Hey Squiggsy, pretty sure you can get very close to the 'right' answer using the 'wrong ' formula because let's face it the CTRS points leaders from two years ago will be very similar to the top of this year's list. I am pretty confident that CurlingCanada did follow their own published rules and did take the highest non-qualified teams from the points list two years ago for those four spots. That is how Menard got in.


They 100% didn't go to the past lists, which is why my list and UnattachedFC's list are in much different orders. I had Bice, not Menard. He had Menard, not Korte. The rest of the teams are the same, but different orders. Here is the link which shows which team got what spot, and why: http://www.curling.ca/team-canada/2...cation-process/

For spots 1-10 I took the teams that were ranked highest on the 2016-17 CTRS rankings, because that's how I interpreted the rules when I first read them. This is the exact ranking that Curling Canada produced. UnattachedFC went through and put them in slots 1-10 (I'll get to 11 & 12 in a minute)using the stated criteria, and all ROTR teams excluded. I still think I'm right based on this from Curling Canada "On May 2, 2017, we will identify the 12 teams in the order shown above. Should a team earn more than one berth or, has already qualified for the Trials (or Pre-Trials), we will immediately go to the 2016-17 CTRS for a replacement team." For example, number 3 is McEwen, who already qualified for the Trials. This means it goes to the 2016-17 spot, who is Thomas. If you went by the 2015-16 rankings, it's Howard. The same for slot 4. I had it as Howard, who is next on the 2016-17 CTRS. UnattachedFC had it as Lyburn.

The only slots that don't go to a replacement are slots 11 and 12 which are the 2 year slots. They keep going down the two year slots until they find another team, and they ignore the 2016-17 only list. This is how Chelsea Carey got in for the ROTR women's event, when most people said she wouldn't. These spots went to Lyburn and Menard. Lyburn gets in because he has 265.709 points. I thought Bice would get in, but as shown below, he doesn't.

I figured out how Menard gets in. Menard and Bice are in a virtual tie, separated by 3.381 points. Gushue has 520.533 points, so 1% of that is 5.205 points. The only event in 2016-17 that Menard and Bice both played in is the Challenge de Curling de Gatineau. They did not play each other, so it goes to tiebreaker part two. Menard had 4 wins at this event, and Bice only had 2 wins. Menard wins the tiebreaker, and gets the last spot.

I have no idea why Curling Canada couldn't just make a simple spreadsheet and show who got into each spot, and the points for it. It would save a lot of confusion. Just putting Menard in over Bice and giving zero explanation to the millions of curling fans is a terrible idea.

Last edited by Squiggsy on 05-05-17 at 09:53PM

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Old Post 05-05-17 09:49PM
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Lebowski
Knee-Slider

Registered: Feb 2012
Location:
Posts: 4

quote:
Originally posted by Squiggsy
I figured out how Menard gets in. Menard and Bice are in a virtual tie, separated by 3.381 points. Gushue has 520.533 points, so 1% of that is 5.205 points. The only event in 2016-17 that Menard and Bice both played in is the Challenge de Curling de Gatineau. They did not play each other, so it goes to tiebreaker part two. Menard had 4 wins at this event, and Bice only had 2 wins. Menard wins the tiebreaker, and gets the last spot.

I have no idea why Curling Canada couldn't just make a simple spreadsheet and show who got into each spot, and the points for it. It would save a lot of confusion. Just putting Menard in over Bice and giving zero explanation to the millions of curling fans is a terrible idea.



Menard and Bice both played in the Tier 2 Grand Slam event where Bice made the playoffs and Menard did not. Bice and Menard also both played the 2015 Gatineau event where Bice made the final going 6-1 and Menard was 4-3 and didn't qualify.

How do those not count if this is for a 2-year berth, shouldn't all events over the 2 years count?

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Old Post 05-06-17 01:59AM
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Squiggsy
Swing Artist

Registered: Apr 2008
Location:
Posts: 246

quote:
Originally posted by Lebowski


Menard and Bice both played in the Tier 2 Grand Slam event where Bice made the playoffs and Menard did not. Bice and Menard also both played the 2015 Gatineau event where Bice made the final going 6-1 and Menard was 4-3 and didn't qualify.

How do those not count if this is for a 2-year berth, shouldn't all events over the 2 years count?



The tiebreaker scenario only covers events played in the current season, and only the 8 claimed events. Menard played in 9 events in 2016-17 that had CTRS points. He drops his worst event, which is the Tier 2 Challenge. Since that isn't one of his 8 claimed events, it isn't entered into the tiebreaking scenario. Even though the spot they were both going for is a 2 year spot, the tie breaker only looks at the most recent year.

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Old Post 05-07-17 10:43PM
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Stoner
Drawmaster

Registered: Mar 2013
Location:
Posts: 618

Pretty weak field for the pre-trials, some teams I've never heard before.

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Old Post 05-09-17 01:25PM
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StartingSeven
Knee-Slider

Registered: May 2017
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Posts: 1

I know I’m late to the party here, but I guess Squiggsy is correct, even though I interpreted it the same way UnattachedFC did. These spots for the pre-trials just went straight to 2016-2017 lists. I would have to say the clarification on all of this is quite terrible.

2 years ago when they sent this all out the wording for spots #3-6 of the pre-trials was “Highest ranked team on the 2015-2016 CTRS not already qualified for the Trials or Pre-Trials.” I interpreted that as “Pick the next highest team on the 2015-2016 list, that didn’t make the Trials or get spots #1 or #2 of the Pre-Trials.”

Instead, they follow the formula of:
a) List the Canada Cup winners, Brier winners and CTRS leaders for the trials
b) Assign all of the Pre-trials spots without considering multiple qualifications
c) Replace any duplicate teams with the next 2016-2017 CTRS spot

By the way, I’m a fan of Team Bice, and had previously thought they were a lock for the pre-trials. So if it sounds like I’m bitter, I’m actually super annoyed.

I’m fine with the way they gave out the spots, I just wish that they had explicitly listed the “order of operations” they were going to use. If they did my hopes wouldn’t have been dashed for what I regard as sound logic.

And the “cherry on top of this total lack of clarification sundae” is that I had to learn what a virtual tie was. And then I had to learn that Menard beats out Bice for a 2 year spot because 2015-2016 isn’t counted (although that’s never clearly stated), and the event where Bice did better than Menard doesn’t count because Menard managed to get 8 better events in (which is clearly stated but seems unfair.)

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Old Post 05-21-17 09:57PM
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Stumpy
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Feb 2016
Location: Ontario
Posts: 44

quote:
Originally posted by StartingSeven
I know I’m late to the party here, but I guess Squiggsy is correct, even though I interpreted it the same way UnattachedFC did. These spots for the pre-trials just went straight to 2016-2017 lists. I would have to say the clarification on all of this is quite terrible.

2 years ago when they sent this all out the wording for spots #3-6 of the pre-trials was “Highest ranked team on the 2015-2016 CTRS not already qualified for the Trials or Pre-Trials.” I interpreted that as “Pick the next highest team on the 2015-2016 list, that didn’t make the Trials or get spots #1 or #2 of the Pre-Trials.”

Instead, they follow the formula of:
a) List the Canada Cup winners, Brier winners and CTRS leaders for the trials
b) Assign all of the Pre-trials spots without considering multiple qualifications
c) Replace any duplicate teams with the next 2016-2017 CTRS spot

By the way, I’m a fan of Team Bice, and had previously thought they were a lock for the pre-trials. So if it sounds like I’m bitter, I’m actually super annoyed.

I’m fine with the way they gave out the spots, I just wish that they had explicitly listed the “order of operations” they were going to use. If they did my hopes wouldn’t have been dashed for what I regard as sound logic.

And the “cherry on top of this total lack of clarification sundae” is that I had to learn what a virtual tie was. And then I had to learn that Menard beats out Bice for a 2 year spot because 2015-2016 isn’t counted (although that’s never clearly stated), and the event where Bice did better than Menard doesn’t count because Menard managed to get 8 better events in (which is clearly stated but seems unfair.)



I know this is going to sound rude, but I'm going to say it anyway. The goal isn't to be fair. The goal is to select the best team to represent Canada at the Olympics. If the debate is whether you're the 19th or 20th best team in Canada, you aren't a true contender and have no right to fairness. Team Bice has plenty of opportunities to win more games (as did Team Menard and any other team that just missed).

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Old Post 05-22-17 08:22PM
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