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07-30-14 08:31AM
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AlanMacNeill
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike54321
No John Shuster and Debbie McCormick?


They aren't The CHOSEN ONES...therefore they are unworthy to compete and represent our nation.

Never mind that they win on the ice....they aren't the chosen ones.

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07-30-14 08:57AM
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Alan, I'm not sure what you are trying to emphasize about the chosen ones. I think it is simple about Shuster. He has been to the Olympics as skip twice, adn done very poorly both times. Deb, did poorly in teh last Olympics.

Thinking a bit more about it, I think that USCA had to show that something was really changing, and taking those two out helps portray that message

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07-30-14 09:02AM
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AlanMacNeill
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Right "things are changing"

No longer will it be an open competition to anyone who thinks they might just maybe be the best our nation has.

Now, you must be vetted and certified and stamped and weighed measured and found not wanting by a National Coaching Staff (who hasn't won *diddly*, btw), before being gift wrapped a large enough wad of cash to guarantee that you're one of the only three teams to have a realistic chance to qualify to be our representatives.

The game has been rigged. technically, it's right on the edge of illegal, as the "Right to Play and determine" has been made all but irrelevant...unless you're either a) independently wealthy or b) handed HPP monies to play bunches of international spiels, you can't accumulate the points necessary to be in the Top Three going into Nationals...and...if you're not Top three...you *Can't* be our National representative, it's mathematically impossible unless all FOUR HPP Teams spit the bit in a 10 person field (which would be a 1/1,000,000 chance).

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07-30-14 10:23AM
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RockDoc
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quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
Right "things are changing"

No longer will it be an open competition to anyone who thinks they might just maybe be the best our nation has.

Now, you must be vetted and certified and stamped and weighed measured and found not wanting by a National Coaching Staff (who hasn't won *diddly*, btw), before being gift wrapped a large enough wad of cash to guarantee that you're one of the only three teams to have a realistic chance to qualify to be our representatives.

The game has been rigged. technically, it's right on the edge of illegal, as the "Right to Play and determine" has been made all but irrelevant...unless you're either a) independently wealthy or b) handed HPP monies to play bunches of international spiels, you can't accumulate the points necessary to be in the Top Three going into Nationals...and...if you're not Top three...you *Can't* be our National representative, it's mathematically impossible unless all FOUR HPP Teams spit the bit in a 10 person field (which would be a 1/1,000,000 chance).



And to keep beating a dead horse...we may regret limiting the diversity of talent by going down this path when we have the 2nd largest population of curlers in the world. (Which should give us an expolitable talent advantage over everyone in the world except Canada.) Even if we do marginally better in the short term (with many of the same players we had before, just reshuffled now), we may well discourage new talent from entering the ranks of competitive curling. Unless you like tilting against windmills.

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07-30-14 11:04AM
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Does anyone know how much competition our U.S. HP teams will get this season? The European teams can and often do compete in up to 8 events in the Curling Champions Tour, and some of the best European teams also compete in the Canadian Slams and other events. If we are trying to replicate the Scotland/Norway/Sweden model, our teams will need to have access to that quantity and level of competition.

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07-30-14 12:16PM
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curlky
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quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
The game has been rigged. technically, it's right on the edge of illegal, as the "Right to Play and determine" has been made all but irrelevant...unless you're either a) independently wealthy or b) handed HPP monies to play bunches of international spiels, you can't accumulate the points necessary to be in the Top Three going into Nationals...and...if you're not Top three...you *Can't* be our National representative, it's mathematically impossible unless all FOUR HPP Teams spit the bit in a 10 person field (which would be a 1/1,000,000 chance).


Maybe I'm being dumb on this, but please help me understand about the FOUR HPP teams. I feel like there are 2 mens HPP teams and two womens. Therefore, 1 of the remaining 8 teams in each field is likely to be in the top 3. Therefore, that team has a realistic 1 in 3 chance of being the national representative. Right?

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07-30-14 12:33PM
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after the conclusion of "Nationals" in Kalamazoo, the team with the most points will be the national representitive to Worlds. This is likely to be one of the HPP teams because they will have the resources to compete in more spiels during the season to accumilate these points. Nina won last year and was not our rep because Allison's team had more points. It is a points race not solely and on-ice competition

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07-30-14 12:43PM
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brianewart
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quote:
Originally posted by runinrock
It is a points race not solely and on-ice competition

To play devil's advocate: It IS an on-ice competition, since teams that spend more time on the ice, competing, have an advantage. Think of it as the MLB/NHL/NBA playoffs vs. the Super Bowl. The NFL determines a champion based on a single-elimination playoff and one-game championship, while the others think it takes a few games in a series to avoid a fluke and figure out who is best.

I'd argue that Pete Fenson had the best team over the last few years for the US, but he was never the "hot hand" at Nationals -- just a warm one. When it came to Worlds though, who knows, maybe Fenson's hand would stayed warm when the rest cooled off? It's all speculative, obviously, but there is some logic to the move.

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07-30-14 12:57PM
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quote:
Originally posted by brianewart

To play devil's advocate: It IS an on-ice competition



I'd disagree...it's not much a competition if external factors trump head-to-head competition. You can say many things about the faults of a national championship competition, but it's a round-robin followed by a single-double elimination playoff round. Teams that emerge as champions from that are very likely to be among the highest performing teams, and they do it in the same format they will compete in at the next stage.

I think the main sticking point is that the USCA, perhaps justifiably, believes that some of our U.S. teams are not as committed to training, coaching, and regular high-level competition as they should be. Of course, one way to solve this is to use a Canadian-style system: you win the Nationals, you get funding for two years to help you compete and stay at the top of your game. If you can't fulfill your end of the bargain as a team, some other high-finishing team can be awarded the support. But you have to earn national support on the ice, not by being chosen.

But alas, that bus has left the station.

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07-30-14 01:22PM
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It is technically and "on-ice" competition because the games are played on ice...but to "play devil's advocate" the current system as constructed could potentially see a team beat an HPP team 5-6 times in the season including potentially 3 times at nationals (RR, Page and Final) and still watch the HPP team play at worlds.

I am in no way saying the system is the worst way to go, or that the decisions to change the world qualifying system are awful, simply saying that calling it an "on-ice" competition is like saying that the yankees and the twins are on an even playing field...simply not true.

Example: HPP team wins the Shorty, or qualifies at a slam. Non-HP team uses their own money to play 3-4 spiels in the US and 2 in canada, winning 2 and qualifying in the 2 others. Very possible the HPP team with just the one result would have an insurmountable lead in points. granted winning the shorty, or qualifying at a slam event are great accomplishments, but does that necessarily mean they are the best rep for worlds?

Again, devil's advocate is all im playing here

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07-30-14 01:39PM
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If Playing and Coaching via the HPP make you enough better that you are the only viable choice for Worlds/Olympics, then you should be able to WIN our Nationals.

We already hand HPP teams free passes to Nationals (okay, only 2 of the 4...how much you wanna bet that becomes 4/4 within 2 years?), we already hand them "World Class" (if any US coach can be called that) nutrition advice, between game coaching, On-ice coaching during their (intervention/time out/whatever they call it this year), videotaping, shot tracking and etc.

If you can't take all of that and *win* on the ice over the course of a round-robin, you aren't our Best Team.

I could see an argument that we should eliminate the potential upset of a one shot championship game. Fine, make the Final best of three. NBC shouldn't mind...they put up with the NHL Playoffs for two months and the Tour de France all day every day for a month...they should be able to scratch out 7 1/2 hours for the sport that crushes both of those every time it's on TV.

Hell, make the Semi's best of three and the finals best of 5. You don't think someone could find sponsors to make that worthwhile?

Our ten best teams should enter the crucible of Nationals on an even keel and an even footing. If you're just going to nominate a chosen team, then don't even bother having a Nationals, just nominate your chosen team and dispense with the lie of "it's a sport anyone can achieve to the highest level at if they apply themselves"

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07-30-14 03:11PM
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curlky
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quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
"it's a sport anyone can achieve to the highest level at if they apply themselves"


This still holds true, nothing you say, regardless of how accurate your argument is. The reality is that to be a world class athlete takes time and money that you must invest. There is nothing that USCA is giving to the HPP teams that you cannot get on your own, with your own time and money. Its called sacrifice, and people need to be willing to make it to succeed.

I am not aware of any sport today wherein people without time and money can regularly make it at the highest level, its just the sad truth of the world.

Joe somebody who wants to be in the Olympics, and didn't make the HPP team, will just have to find his own sponsors and trainers and coaches.

On a side note, I do agree that perhaps after the round robin, for the semis and finals, make it best of 3, and winner advances to our national team status.

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07-30-14 06:11PM
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quote:
Originally posted by curlky


The reality is that to be a world class athlete takes time and money that you must invest. There is nothing that USCA is giving to the HPP teams that you cannot get on your own,




Right - if you are not an HPP curler than you must invest time and money to succeed and there is nothing the USCA is giving to you. However, the USCA is providing money to HPP curlers so I think your claim is a bit disingenuous

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07-30-14 06:20PM
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Did USCA really just defund 3/4 of the top mens team in the country, then take their 2nd away and put him on a different team with players that live in other states? The USCA pays people to make decisions like this?

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07-30-14 10:52PM
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curlky
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quote:
Originally posted by dbsdbs
the USCA is providing money to HPP curlers so I think your claim is a bit disingenuous


Disingenuous? How do you figure? Anyone who truly wants to go to the Olympics or the National Championship in anything, must be willing to sacrifice money and time, with no expectation that you will have things given to you. Sure, its nice if you can get things given to you, but you cant expect that. And the USCA can't fund everyone, so what do you want them to do?

This is how I genuinely feel.

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07-31-14 04:18AM
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The problem curlky, is that the USCA is "stacking the deck". By making the world team selection a points race, they are enhancing the opportunity for the HPP team to win - not necessarily the best team.

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07-31-14 09:36AM
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AlanMacNeill
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quote:
Originally posted by curlky

And the USCA can't fund everyone, so what do you want them to do?

This is how I genuinely feel.



Easy Peasy:

1. 12 Team Open Nationals. Qualify by:
a. come Top 4 in OOM
b. Defending National Champion
c. Win a regional Qualifier (3 around the nation)
d. Top 4 at a National Qualifier (open to teams that participated in Regionals but did not win)

2. Nationals is a Round Robin, Top 4 Teams make Semi-finals, best of 3 then best of 5 playoffs for National Champion.

3. National Champion goes to Worlds for the following year (so our 2014-15 National Champion goes to the 2015-16 Worlds).

3a. The expectation is that our National Champion team will be spending the intervening year being Team USA, doing the camps at Colorado Springs, curling most weeks of the season, keeping in shape, etc.

4. Top 4 Teams from Nationals get the Senior HPP Funding. If a Junior HPP Team comes Top 4 at Senior Nationals, they get Senior Funding, and the next Junior team in line gets Junior Funding.

4a. If a Top 4 team chooses to forgo HPP funding, the 5th place team gets it.

5. In the year preceding an Olympics, the Nationals Winner becomes our Olympic Nominee (including any qualification responsibility we may have). The team can choose to forgo also being the World's Representative as well if they think that will be too much wear, in which case our National Runners up will go to Worlds.

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07-31-14 10:50AM
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quote:
Originally posted by first27
The problem curlky, is that the USCA is "stacking the deck". By making the world team selection a points race, they are enhancing the opportunity for the HPP team to win - not necessarily the best team.


How is this stacking the deck? Seems to me, that any good curlers can go to just as many tournaments as the HPP team, even beat them, and earn as many or more OOM points.

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07-31-14 10:54AM
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AlanMacNeil,

So the main differences between your plan and the current USCA plan would be

1.) Qualifier Tournaments to get into nationals
2.) Semis and Finals would be Best of series rather than winner take all
3.) Winner goes to worlds/olympics rather than highest points earner?
4.) HPP funds twice as many teams as now?

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07-31-14 11:01AM
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And, most importantly, no bye's for HPP teams.

As for number of teams, I don't really care how many are funded, so long as that funding is earned through actual open competition (and no, a "invited athletes only" combine is not actual open competition). If the budget only allows 2, then only 2. If the budget allows 10, then fund all the teams that get to Nationals.

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07-31-14 11:05AM
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There are only two things wrong with this proposal:
Time and Money.

To play a best of five final would take at least 3 days. Add to that 2 days for a best of 3 semi-final and added days for a 12 team RR vs a 10 team RR.
Total you are looking at a two week Nationals.

So not only have you significantly increased the cost to the USCA but you have also increased the cost to all the competitors who now must take an extra week off work and pay for additional days in hotels etc. God forbid you win and are team USA that is at least another week and half away from work. Plus all of the days that you missed hitting the bonspiel circuit during the fall improving your game. Either you would have to be independently wealthy or have an incredibly understanding employer.

Now don't get me wrong I hate the new HPP plan but many of the ideas being suggested here have been tried in the recent past.

Yes the deck is stacked against non-HPP teams but the path is not impossible. The only US team to win a Canadian Cash spiel last year was Pottinger. So if the HPP team get minimal points in Canadian spiels, a non-HPP team can gain points by doing well in Madison, Duluth, St. Paul etc.

To runinrock: If an HPP team won the Shorty (which no US team has ever done) or qualify in a Slam which hasn't happened in many years (in fact US teams don't even make the cut to be invited to the Slams) I would be very happy for them to go on and represent the US at World's.

TN
(aka Dannie Downer)

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07-31-14 11:12AM
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As someone said...if you want to be our best, you must be prepared to make that sacrifice.

I have no beef with the fact that curling is becoming "professional". My beef is with the fact that the professionals are being back room chosen without access for the masses, and then being given assets and assistance that turns that into a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Earning your way to Nationals via OOM should be difficult and time consuming. The payoff is two fold...1 - you're in. 2 - you should be amongst the best prepared we have.

As for ice time for the extended Nationals...yes, there would be extra costs...however, that cost is at least potentially equaled by the potential asset you are getting...as many as 8 (as few as 5 if both rounds get completely swept on both Mens and Women's side) draws that can be televised, tickets sold, merchandising opportunities, etc.

Compared with the cost of an arena for an extra 3-5 days...it's a profit center, not a loss leader, if the USCA bothers to try to make money off of it.

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07-31-14 11:26AM
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I think one would be hard-pressed to say that anyone who wins a round-robin plus Page playoff could be considered significantly inferior in performance to any of the other teams in the competition. Period. The statistics of performance are just against a high probability of a significantly weaker team taking the gold.

Make folks demonstrate the skills that are needed on the world stage in a format that is similar or identical to that of the world stage. Fund the teams that win our nationals for 2 years to compete at the highest level and give them additional training and attention at the national level. Because they earned it and we owe it to them to help them be successful as our national representative. If a team cannot commit to using funding to compete and train, fund the runners-up. That's a little leg up for those that demonstrate performance and are willing to commit to some competitive responsibilities. Use it or lose it. And if you don't keep it up in the next couple of competitive cycles, you don't get to keep funding. You have to win it every year (actually at least every two years.) No combines required. No subjective analysis of talent. Just on-ice performance in the crucible that will be just like world and Olympic competition. An open system like that would attract new talent and teams continuously. Team that with enhanced local and regional instruction--this could potentially be done in a very cost-effective fashion--and you have a conveyor belt of increasingly experienced talent.

But, as I said, that bus has left the station...

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07-31-14 01:06PM
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So Alan, I don't think that the two of us are that far off in our thought process, you just have a bit more negative slant on it than I do.

But how did you want the HPP to dole out funding for this year without an invitation camp? I see there being 2 aspects of interest for this.

1.) Any thing that would need to wait until the next nationals or similar to decide who gets funded would probably be too late. The plan is really for improvement for the next Olympics, when curling gets its attention, and to wait another year would be a lot of wasted time.

2.) There is a fundamental decision about whether teams should be self formed or "assigned". There is no evidence to show that self formed teams will work for us in the US, so I think that USCA wanted to move to appointed teams, which in reality is probably the better way to go, even if it is a change from teh way things are done. As far as I know, all other international teams are assigned rather than self formed. Without the carrot of funding, I am not sure how the USCA would have caused this paradigm shift.

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07-31-14 01:16PM
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1. We just had nationals...award it to those folks. Transitional plans for when you are moving to a new system aren't that hard to deal with, I have had to make them 4 times in the past year at my job.

2. There is no reason to believe that "assigned teams" will do any better than self formed teams. "assigned teams" assumes that The Coach knows the game better than The Players do. It's all about Power...which, in a way makes sense, since that's what the USOC is about, Power and Money.

Assigned teams only make sense when you are a nation with zero curling community that still wants to have a team, then you find some athletes, put them together, and voila...team. The US is NOT in that boat.

There were *countless* documentaries and stories shown during the 70's and 80's about the horrors of the Soviet and Eastern Bloc "We're going to choose athletes from the time they are young based on aptitude tests, and only the very best will get to be athletes". We used to *celebrate* when our guys beat them...and we did, fairly regularly.

Now we're joining them...in a sport where that was so not necessary.

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Curling Scores

M: Canadian Mixed Doubles Curling Championship
Fredericton, NB
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: 6 -- Mon, Mar 18 -- 7:00pm AT
Gagn/Mori Final
Rees/Ches (EE)
Sand/Crai Final
Gamb/Kalt (8)
Arms/Grif Final
Pete/Gall (7) Watch Live Curling!
Zhen/Piet Final
Gion/Desj (7)
Wasy/Koni Final
Jone/Lain (EE)
Wise/Smit 12  Final
Weag/Eppi (6)
Lott/Lott 12  Final
Bouc/Char (7)
Krev/Math Final
Whit/Whit (6)
M: Aberdeen International Curling Championship
Aberdeen, SCO
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: CF -- Sun, Mar 17 -- 2:45pm GMT
Mouat Final
Shuster (7)
D: WCT Slovakia Mixed Doubles Cup II
Bratislava, SVK
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: CF -- Sun, Mar 17 -- 12:00pm CET
Han/Zou Final
Paul/Paul (7)
Cihl/Mace Final
Yang/Tian 10  (6)
: NWTCA Mixed
Yellowknife, NT
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: 4 -- Sun, Mar 17 -- 10:00am MT
Delorey Final
Koe (5)
Full Scoreboard  |  Play Fantasy Pick'em!  

Recent News

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Canadian mixed doubles championship starts in Fredericton on Sunday

Canadian mixed doubles championship starts in Fredericton on Sunday

Marlee Powers and Luke Saunders of Halifax, Nova Scotia won 6-5 over Papley/van Amsterdam in the opening draw streamed on Curling Canada's Plus platform.

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