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Aberdeen, SCO
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: NWTCA Mixed
Yellowknife, NT
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Koe (5)
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07-31-14 01:25PM
curlky is offline Click Here to See the Profile for curlky Click here to Send curlky a Private Message Find more posts by curlky Add curlky to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
curlky
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Sports like basketball, hockey, baseball, softball, rowing, handball, water polo just to name a few all use assigned teams. In fact our 1980 Gold Medal hockey team which was assigned, beat the soviet assigned team, so I am not sure that I follow your logic.

And yes, you have to make transitional plans, like you were able to do 4 times. Their transitional plan was implemented, its just that you don't like it.

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07-31-14 01:42PM
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AlanMacNeill
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Basketball and Hockey are formed "All Star" teams that never compete outside of the Olympics (and/or Worlds), working off an established, franchise based, closed Professional League.
Franchises are not limited to one nationality, so we can't just send the San Antonio Spurs to the Worlds, 2/3 of the team wouldn't be eligible. Not even remotely the same as US Curling.

Additionally...Remind me again what color the Men's Hockey team won last winter?

Baseball and Softball aren't even Olympic Sports anymore, so irrelevant to the conversation. There is no "World Championship of Baseball"...MLB is trying, but it ain't there yet. The US has such an advantage in Softball (due to Title IX) that we could send our D team and medal 8/10 years.

Handball...our chosen team doesn't even *qualify* for the Olympics, never mind medal....so your point is completley invalid here

Water Polo...the US has won one silver since 1988...our curlers have done better with a team chosen system...so your point is completley invalid here.

As for rowing...http://www.usrowing.org/NationalTea...Procedures.aspx would seem to indicate that if you win trials, you get to wear Team USA on the World Circuit. They may enter additional chosen boats but that's a luxury that sports with more than one entry in an event have.

The evidence shows pretty conclusively that "Chosen" teams aren't any better than Team Driven ones.

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07-31-14 01:44PM
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RockDoc
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quote:
Originally posted by curlky
There is a fundamental decision about whether teams should be self formed or "assigned". There is no evidence to show that self formed teams will work for us in the US, so I think that USCA wanted to move to appointed teams, which in reality is probably the better way to go, even if it is a change from teh way things are done. As far as I know, all other international teams are assigned rather than self formed. Without the carrot of funding, I am not sure how the USCA would have caused this paradigm shift.


I am skeptical there there is any strong, objective evidence that "assigned" teams perform any better a priori than self-formed teams. There is lots of opinion, but no real evidence. I strongly suspect that the successes ascribed to "assigned" teams in those nations that do this is causally correlated to the amount of professional coaching, practice, and competition those assigned teams receive. In small curling population nations, it may not be possible to assemble many high-level self-formed teams from which one or more highly talented teams emerge through competition. I would note that Canada's self-formed teams are no more or less competitive than Scotland's, Norway's or Sweden's assigned teams. What all these teams highly competitive programs do share is professional coaching and lots of high-level competition.

Now, one reason the USCA may wish to assign teams is to ensure that players are committed to the practice, coaching, and competition required to excel--and the latter is a justifiable concern--but it does not necessarily follow that assigned teams is the only way to achieve that commitment. Here again, I would refer to Canada as a model. Are the top teams lacking in commitment? The downside of assigning teams is the snuffing of the emergent talent pool. In a small country, this is not a large concern. In a country with a large curling population, it could be a recipe for diverting potential talent to other sports that appear to be more accessible.

In the end, assigning teams in and of itself is not going to increase competitiveness of U.S. curling. To put it bluntly, this is not "digging where there's taters." The main issue, I believe, is providing our competitive teams with professional coaching, athletic training/fitness programs, and most importantly, frequent high-level competition. This basic approach works at the club and bonspiel level as well: instruction, fitness, experience = performance. If we don't do this well at the national level, then the HP program will be nothing more than administrivia.

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07-31-14 01:56PM
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Diego
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Talking

Wow! First a reference to the Holocaust and now comparisons to the Soviet Union and Eastern Bloc from the 60's and 70's! Why is the USCA still alowed to exist?

Whackadoodles!

Get outside, smell a flower, relax and let go of all this anger.

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07-31-14 02:01PM
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curlky
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I refuse to acknowledge Alan and his misinformation. Please fact check and correct and we can discuss like rational adults.

RockDoc, I have a few comments/questions for you. It is my opinion that the USA has a small curling community, not a large one. Maybe it is second or third largest in the world, but it is statistically small. My concern for what you are saying, is that it is statistically likely, that due to our small community size, the odds of having 4 elite world class curlers living near each other are small. I think that it becomes necessary to have an assigned team until said time in which the community is large enough that this is no longer the case. I think this is why Canada can get by with self formed teams.

I am unsure how you think that the assigned teams will "be a recipe for diverting potential talent to other sports that appear to be more accessible." Even with the current HPP plan, what sports are more accessible than curling. And honestly do you think that making it a bit harder to qualify for worlds will decrease the curling community. I know everyone says they want to go to the Olympics, but honestly how many people feel like they have a chance.

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07-31-14 02:07PM
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AlanMacNeill
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Which part do you think is incorrect?

Our history in Water Polo? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_...Summer_Olympics says I'm right.

Our history in Team Handball? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handba...Summer_Olympics would seem to indicate I'm right

The selection criteria for rowing? I already linked that.

Or do you deny that our Hockey and Basketball teams are "All-Star" teams chosen basically exclusively from the NBA and NHL, respectively?

Face it, you can't refute my facts...they are correct.

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07-31-14 02:18PM
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RockDoc
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quote:
Originally posted by curlky
I am unsure how you think that the assigned teams will "be a recipe for diverting potential talent to other sports that appear to be more accessible." Even with the current HPP plan, what sports are more accessible than curling. And honestly do you think that making it a bit harder to qualify for worlds will decrease the curling community. I know everyone says they want to go to the Olympics, but honestly how many people feel like they have a chance.


Club curling will be fine. I don't think club curlers will care a whit about elite level curling policy. However, if young, developing talent believes that there is little chance of breaking into a a small pool of 10--and that admission is based on subjective factors--said athletes may decide to flee to other sports where the chances of advancement appear to be more fair, objective or favorable. It's a risk of running an elite program this way, where outsiders are significantly disadvantaged. We recently lost a talented curler to the luge program--one example doesn't prove the general point, but it is food for thought.

You make a quite valid point that although we are a large curling country, we are also a very large country geographically. Density of curlers is a challenge in forming teams that can play together regularly.

We are embarked on an experiment now, and it will run its course. Time will likely tell if we addressed the right issues.

Cheers.

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07-31-14 02:28PM
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curlky
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quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
Face it, you can't refute my facts...they are correct.


Wow you are again a mud slinging liar. But just to prove to others how this is true, let me show you just a single example.

You said "Water Polo...the US has won one silver since 1988...our curlers have done better with a team chosen system...so your point is completley invalid here."

In curling, the USA has a bronze from Fenson in 2006 during that time period. USA men won a silver in water polo in 2008, and the women won a gold in 2012, silver in 2008, and another silver in 2000. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a gold and three silvers better than a single bronze?

Now don't try to say, well that just one example. The point is to have a calm rational fact based conversation, not facts as they are convenient to you.

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07-31-14 08:57PM
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GuardingTheHack
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike54321


No one here agrees with you. Stop wasting yours and our time.



Wrong. This board needs more curlky and diegos.

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08-01-14 04:24PM
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Diego
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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quote:
Originally posted by GuardingTheHack


Wrong. This board needs more curlky and diegos.



Oh god No! You need less of me. I'm even too lazy to change my user name once I moved away from San Diego.

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08-01-14 05:04PM
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AlanMacNeill
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Personal attacks, really?

Very classy...

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08-01-14 08:30PM
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SargentIV
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Two points have been made that frankly, I don't think withstand close scrutiny.

The first point is that most teams at the Olympics are appointed rather than self-formed. Previous posters have cited Basketball, Baseball, Water Polo, Ice Hockey, etc. These comparisons are not so neat for two major reasons. One is that these teams are much larger, by at least threefold. To get that many people to cooperate a team does genuinely need a leader to hand pick the athletes. Additionally, in those sports there are many and frequent substitutions. With curling the alternate is in most cases at the whims of the main team (Craig Brown getting a thank-you-for-coming spot at the end of the round robin is a great example of this while Tracey Sachtjen and Alison Pottinger have not played as Olympic alternates).

The second point is whether or not self-formed teams compete better than appointed teams at the elite level. I'll point out that seven of the eight teams that made it to the playoffs at the Olympics (that's 7 of 8) originated as self-formed teams. Previous posters have mentioned that the British women were essentially the National Team of Scotland prior in the years leading up to the Olympics. That is true, but prior to that they formed themselves and demonstrated to the RCCC that they were the top team in Scotland and therefore got the distinction of National Team. The Swedish men and women had a similar path to National Team status. The one exception in the Sochi semifinals was the Chinese men. However, they didn't act like a team off the ice until Marcel Rocque came in and stressed camaraderie and their results improved tremendously.

__________________
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08-01-14 10:25PM
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curlky
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quote:
Originally posted by SargentIV
Two points have been made that frankly, I don't think withstand close scrutiny.


But your retort to those points have much scrutiny as well. USA does well in almost every team sport, and appoints a team in almost every sport. And second, to use your 7 of 8 analogy, USA has followed that 7 of 8 strategy of self formed teams, and where is our success. If it was such a virtual recipe for success, where is our success?

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08-01-14 10:27PM
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peteski
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I have to say, in reading many of the arguments against these changes I find myself agreeing with a lot of it (I particularly like Alan's version of Nationals). My main argument is that in order to compete, you need professional or very near professional teams. That's what it takes. However you get to that would be fine by me. In my opinion, the handpicked funded teams make some sense, presuming it's based on talent as well as the ability and willingness to put time in. If you're going to fund a national team, I get why you would want to have some idea that the players receiving the funding will be putting in the effort to maximize the opportunity.

Having said that, if they're gonna handpick an HPP team, I don't think they should have made the change to nationals last year. They should have done one or the other, maybe, but not both. It just seems too discouraging to the talented players that aren't chosen for the national squad. I think you should still want these players to strive to represent the country nationally. I don't see how that can hurt your program.

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08-01-14 10:40PM
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peteski
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Enjoyed this tweet from John Shuster:

"Applications now being accepted to be on my personal HP team! Lack funding/support hasn't stopped me recently. #2018StillMyFocus"

I have a ton of respect for this dude.

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08-02-14 01:42AM
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rbi
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would love to see a corporation chip in sponsorship money to build and fund shuster's team. they'd just need enough money to take them to all the tour events they can handle.

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08-02-14 09:10AM
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AlanMacNeill
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quote:
Originally posted by curlky


But your retort to those points have much scrutiny as well. USA does well in almost every team sport, and appoints a team in almost every sport.



LEt's see how closely that holds water...

Team sports in the Olympics, 2014

Summer:
Basketball - US Gold, previously discussed, All Star is the only Option, as there are no Nation Restricted self formed teams

Cycling, Road - NO US OLympic medals in team events

Football (Soccer) - US MEn did not even qualify. US Women Gold

Handball - US Teams DID NOT QUALIFY

Hockey (Field) - US TEams DID NOT QUALIFY

Synchronized Swimming - NO US MEDALS

Volleyball (Court) - Women Silver, no men's medal

Water Polo - No medal Men, women's team Gold


So, with the exception of two Women's Golds (and frankly, if our Women's Teams aren't winning Gold, courtesy of Title IX, we should be ashamed, our Women's Sports teams get roughly 500 times more support than the average nation's women's sports team), the only US Team Medal was...basketball...a game we invented and have won all but 2 Golds in since it came into the Olympics, both with College Teams and All Stars.

Your case, Sir, does not hold water. There is no evidence that model works.

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08-02-14 10:45AM
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SPMFromPCC
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Please, enough with attempting to compare apples and oranges. I think we can all understand and agree that the interpersonal dynamics of a curling team aren't the same as that of a basketball, or soccer, or volleyball, or hockey, or whatever team. Each sport is different in that regard. So again, enough with the meaningless comparisons in an attempt to prove your own points of view.

At the end of the day, the combine happened, players were chosen and teams will be assembled, and soon enough we will all see for ourselves whether or not this bears fruit. I know that, for my part, it's not going to stop me from competing and doing my best. Heck, I only missed out on going to the combine myself by one spot, so I must be doing something right.

Some of you retain the luxury of debating how right or wrong this thing is because you aren't out there competing yourself, and that's a nice luxury to have. The rest of us will continue training, competing, and working our asses off because you know what? We still love this sport and want to be the best at it. THAT'S what drives us.

What drives you?

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08-02-14 10:48AM
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dbsdbs
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quote:
Originally posted by SPMFromPCC
Please, enough with attempting to compare apples and oranges. I think we can all understand and agree that the interpersonal dynamics of a curling team aren't the same as that of a basketball, or soccer, or volleyball, or hockey, or whatever team. Each sport is different in that regard. So again, enough with the meaningless comparisons in an attempt to prove your own points of view.

At the end of the day, the combine happened, players were chosen and teams will be assembled, and soon enough we will all see for ourselves whether or not this bears fruit...



Well said. Like it or not, it is time to move on

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08-02-14 07:30PM
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jhcurl
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SPM says it best. Keep playing and competing. I hope that the invitees were the right choices and then the selected athletes were also the right athletes. Time will tell.

Good luck to all that are competing this year.

JH
4 weeks until the water starts to freeze

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Curling Scores

M: Canadian Mixed Doubles Curling Championship
Fredericton, NB
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: 6 -- Mon, Mar 18 -- 7:00pm AT
Gagn/Mori Final
Rees/Ches (EE)
Sand/Crai Final
Gamb/Kalt (8)
Arms/Grif Final
Pete/Gall (7) Watch Live Curling!
Zhen/Piet Final
Gion/Desj (7)
Wasy/Koni Final
Jone/Lain (EE)
Wise/Smit 12  Final
Weag/Eppi (6)
Lott/Lott 12  Final
Bouc/Char (7)
Krev/Math Final
Whit/Whit (6)
M: Aberdeen International Curling Championship
Aberdeen, SCO
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Draw: CF -- Sun, Mar 17 -- 2:45pm GMT
Mouat Final
Shuster (7)
D: WCT Slovakia Mixed Doubles Cup II
Bratislava, SVK
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Han/Zou Final
Paul/Paul (7)
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Yang/Tian 10  (6)
: NWTCA Mixed
Yellowknife, NT
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Draw: 4 -- Sun, Mar 17 -- 10:00am MT
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Koe (5)
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