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M: NWTCA Curling Club Championships
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03-11-15 05:12PM
doubletakeout is offline Click Here to See the Profile for doubletakeout Click here to Send doubletakeout a Private Message Find more posts by doubletakeout Add doubletakeout to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
doubletakeout
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Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Manitoba
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Why should the Yukon, NWT, and Nunavut have to play off for one spot? Last time I checked, PEI and NB have never won a Brier either. Why not have them play off for one spot and let YT and NWT both send one team?

All of the "solutions" you guys are proposing are not solutions at all - there ARE, in fact, good *logical* reasons not to use 5 sheets, or not to expand the field beyond 12 teams, or not to stretch the number of draws, or for the existence of Team Canada and Team Northern Ontario. Just because you either aren't aware of, or choose to blissfully ignore those reasons, doesn't mean they aren't valid. Gerry's interview with Warren Hansen provides solid, reasonable explanations for all of the decisions.

If you're going to wring your hands and type the same arguments over and over until your fingers fall off, at least do some reading, check the CCA's open records, listen to what Warren Hansen has to say in his interview, and educate yourselves as to where these decisions are coming from. All of these so-called solutions you guys are describing have been debated and ultimately pushed aside for credible, valid, logical reasons. Offer something different, because the same arguments aren't going to change things if you're that upset.

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03-11-15 05:20PM
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Hack Weight
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Registered: Dec 2014
Location: Alberta
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quote:
Originally posted by Par


Thanks for mentioning the World Championships. We could learn a lot by watching how their playdowns are structured.

In particular, how many teams will come into Halifax a few days ahead of time, play 2 or 3 games, and then get sent home? ZERO.

Teams qualify for World Championships (or fail to do so) months in advance. The teams and their supporters know whether they are going to be in the event for a whole week (or not), well ahead of time.

Nobody is forced to try to qualify while the rest of the event has already started. Nobody has to play a game while the rest of the field plays hot-shots. And for the teams that do qualify, the event is a level playing field.




Would you be happier if relegation happened 1 month earlier in a 3-sheet curling club in Yellowknife?

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03-11-15 08:04PM
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Par
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quote:
Originally posted by Hack Weight


Would you be happier if relegation happened 1 month earlier in a 3-sheet curling club in Yellowknife?



First of all, relegation is what happens when you lose. Qualification is how you get back in. So I assume you are talking about qualification.

Is there a reason why qualification would have to happen in a three-sheet club?

And is there a reason why qualification would have to happen in Yellowkife?

I think it would make a lot more sense if the qualification event happened in advance of the main event.

Look what happens when the Olympic trials roll around. Do they hold the Pre-Trials on the day before the Trials? Of course not.

There's a good reason for that. Why doesn't the same reasoning apply here?

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03-11-15 08:24PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Jan 2015
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quote:
Originally posted by Par


First of all, relegation is what happens when you lose. Qualification is how you get back in. So I assume you are talking about qualification.

Is there a reason why qualification would have to happen in a three-sheet club?

And is there a reason why qualification would have to happen in Yellowkife?

I think it would make a lot more sense if the qualification event happened in advance of the main event.

Look what happens when the Olympic trials roll around. Do they hold the Pre-Trials on the day before the Trials? Of course not.

There's a good reason for that. Why doesn't the same reasoning apply here?



If the "play in" remains in the qualification should be similar to pre-trials in that sense. It would almost be too bad if it changed to that system because I doubt cc would create arena ice for a 4 team round robin. The teams would be forced to compete in regular club, that's not bad but it could also mean that teams run into the same ice conditions the Howard guys did in Ontario.

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03-11-15 08:42PM
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murphyj87
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Registered: Jan 2007
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quote:
Originally posted by golfbuddy43
I watched the Juniors games online and I noticed that they had 5 sheets of ice. We could do the same thing here in Canada as we don't need the sidewalks between the sheets like we now do. There can be a couple of sheets set up for tv, but with the games being played in hockey rinks, they already have the necessary TV setup in place. This would allow us to have more teams with 3 draws per day.


There always were 5 sheets at the Brier etc. until the area of 1990.

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03-11-15 10:35PM
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Par
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more screwed up

The World Cup of cricket is currently happening in Australia and New Zealand. It's a 14-team event, scheduled for six weeks.

Even though they have all that time, if a game is rained out, they make no attempt to reschedule it. The two teams simply split the points, as if the game had ended in a tie.

And if the final is rained out, they don't make any attempt to reschedule that, either. The two teams have to share the trophy.

As far as I can tell, hardly anybody is happy about any of this. But it's kind of nice to know there are other sports that are more screwed up than curling.

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03-12-15 03:44AM
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mcgregorm89
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Re: more screwed up

quote:
Originally posted by Par
The World Cup of cricket is currently happening in Australia and New Zealand. It's a 14-team event, scheduled for six weeks.

Even though they have all that time, if a game is rained out, they make no attempt to reschedule it. The two teams simply split the points, as if the game had ended in a tie.

And if the final is rained out, they don't make any attempt to reschedule that, either. The two teams have to share the trophy.

As far as I can tell, hardly anybody is happy about any of this. But it's kind of nice to know there are other sports that are more screwed up than curling.



It does take around 6 hours to play a match so the round robin rain delay is reasonable but sharing the trophy is pretty stupid.

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03-12-15 03:59AM
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Gerry
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While I don't necessarily disagree 5 sheets is a bad idea, the key decision makers don't like it for major events like the Brier and Scotties.

The reasons suggested:

The side sheets are blocked for many fan. I went and sat in the 2nd row in the Saddledome to watch half a game and even with 4 sheets, the half of the sheet on the boards side was blocked. With 5 sheets this would be even worse.

Walkways are required for photographers and especially television. While the Slams do use 5 sheets, the television games are typically scheduled for Sheet C with the 2 walkways.

12 teams into 4 sheets is a clean draw, teams play 2 games a day and it gives them time for deal with other commitments they have during the event.

Whether you agree or not, it is the requests from stakeholders in the game that the Scotties and Brier stick to four sheets.

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03-12-15 09:52AM
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Borough Boy
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Oct 2007
Location:
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quote:
Originally posted by Gerry
While I don't necessarily disagree 5 sheets is a bad idea, the key decision makers don't like it for major events like the Brier and Scotties.

The reasons suggested:

The side sheets are blocked for many fan. I went and sat in the 2nd row in the Saddledome to watch half a game and even with 4 sheets, the half of the sheet on the boards side was blocked. With 5 sheets this would be even worse.

Walkways are required for photographers and especially television. While the Slams do use 5 sheets, the television games are typically scheduled for Sheet C with the 2 walkways.

12 teams into 4 sheets is a clean draw, teams play 2 games a day and it gives them time for deal with other commitments they have during the event.

Whether you agree or not, it is the requests from stakeholders in the game that the Scotties and Brier stick to four sheets.



Thanks Gerry, that makes pefect sense. I find it weird that many are assuming nobody has thought this through, I can guarantee you 100% if we have spent hours, the CC and stakeholders have spent months.

For those who are suggesting a better time/way for the play in system to work, how?

I have read , do it such as the pre trials. Really. That event is in November and the teams have been declared in advance. In order for something similar, A) Provincial winners have to be declared first, B) it can't conflict with any other CCA event, when would you propose this get fit in? It would have to be coordinated with Provincial scheduling as well, obviously.

IMHO, playing at the Brier site, in that environment, would beat playing at the Ottawa Hunt Club on a Wednesday night in late February, for example. They are NOT going to rent an arena somewhere else for 4 teams, the cost would not be prohibitive.

Instead of throwing out wild statements how about a concrete idea on how you would incproporate this?

And if your answer is 5 sheets or all inclusive, don't bother responding to this post please. Let's have a creative solution to what exists.

Last edited by Borough Boy on 03-12-15 at 09:58AM

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03-12-15 10:00AM
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mcgregorm89
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Registered: Apr 2014
Location: Kingston, ON
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quote:
Originally posted by Borough Boy


Thanks Gerry, that makes pefect sense. I find it weird that many are assuming nobody has thought this through, I can guarantee you 100% if we have spent hours, the CC and stakeholders have spent months.

For those who are suggesting a better time/way for the play in system to work, how?

I have read , do it such as the pre trials. Really. That event is in November and the teams have been declared in advance. In order for something similar, A) Provincial winners have to be declared first, B) it can't conflict with any other CCA event, when would you propose this get fit in? It would have to be coordinated with Provincial scheduling as well, obviously.

IMHO, playing at the Brier site, in that environment, would beat playing at the Ottawa Hunt Club on a Wednesday night in late February, for example.

Instead of throwing out wild statements how about a concrete idea on how you would incproporate this?

And if your answer is 5 sheets or all inclusive, don't bother responding to this post please. Let's have a creative solution to what exists.



Really the best solution I can think of is a A group for the main event and a B group for those relegated and play the B tournament at one of the host clubs. But a 4 team pool is probably too small to make it exciting.

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03-12-15 11:01AM
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Not Happy
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Mar 2015
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Great debate keep it going after all it is those that play the game and watch the game that have the real voice. Sponsors are there because of the players and the fans one does not exist with out the other.

There are solutions out there that may not be perfect but neither is the current system.

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03-12-15 11:25AM
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guido
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I would think that more progress would be made with creative discussion then by boycotting sponsors. There is a saying about bees and honey.... and another about biting the hand that feeds you.

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03-12-15 12:18PM
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ngm
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Does this discussion have room for dissenting voices?

The 2015 Brier was one of the better ones I remember.

I think relegation had something to do with that. Only one rather poor team this year, and Team Canada was an additional elite team.

I suspect in the long run the steady state will be the three territories on the outside looking in. They simply have no population to draw from.

Jamie Koe was a nice story but the game has passed him by. Maybe he'll get back in next year. Experience counts for something. But ability tends to win in the end.

I'm not very impressed with the arguments relating to consistency (national championships have to have reps from every region at the final round) and history (the Brier has always been XYZ...). Consistency is one thing, but foolish consistency? And the Brier has never been "XYZ" over its whole history about anything.

A relegation system maintains a strong link with the past nature of the event, while improving its quality, and lives within the reality of physical space and the needs of television.

It didn't happen this year, but at some point there is going to be a game at the end of the round robin with major relegation implications that will garner lots of attention.

I wouldn't put relegation even in the top three of the biggest changes to the Brier over its history. The addition of playoffs, the move to 10 ends, and the wall to wall coverage from TSN are all far more significant.

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03-12-15 12:24PM
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prairie guy
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Registered: Jan 2011
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quote:
Originally posted by ngm
Does this discussion have room for dissenting voices?

The 2015 Brier was one of the better ones I remember.

I think relegation had something to do with that. Only one rather poor team this year, and Team Canada was an additional elite team.

I suspect in the long run the steady state will be the three territories on the outside looking in. They simply have no population to draw from.

Jamie Koe was a nice story but the game has passed him by. Maybe he'll get back in next year. Experience counts for something. But ability tends to win in the end.

I'm not very impressed with the arguments relating to consistency (national championships have to have reps from every region at the final round) and history (the Brier has always been XYZ...). Consistency is one thing, but foolish consistency? And the Brier has never been "XYZ" over its whole history about anything.

A relegation system maintains a strong link with the past nature of the event, while improving its quality, and lives within the reality of physical space and the needs of television.

It didn't happen this year, but at some point there is going to be a game at the end of the round robin with major relegation implications that will garner lots of attention.

I wouldn't put relegation even in the top three of the biggest changes to the Brier over its history. The addition of playoffs, the move to 10 ends, and the wall to wall coverage from TSN are all far more significant.



Yes you are allowed to have a dissenting voice and I agree with what you have stated in this post.

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03-12-15 12:29PM
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guido
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I've had a dissenting voice in this thread from the start. My age has been questioned because of it. Oh well. I, like you would much rather have a more competitive brier than a equally represented brier. It should be a championship, not a training ground.

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03-12-15 02:18PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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Then lets just cut it back to the best 10 teams in the country never mind the provincial play downs. Then we can run it in small arenas everyone can stay home and watch it on TV.

Wait we have that now its called the Grand Slams and we can all see what big crowds these events draw. For all you Grand Slam fans don't be slighted by this comment I think the Grand Slams are great they just don't bring people out to the arenas. But they have been very successful for TV.

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03-12-15 02:31PM
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guido
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At least your name fits.

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03-12-15 02:42PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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A lot of talk has been around sponsors I am sure they do not want this headache, and yes I am sure that if 500 or six hundred decide to stop buying a certain brand of coffee that they would not care too much. We will only be using this as a last resort. We know there will be an option put on the table very soon that will suggest a change. Whether they can get the support for this is yet to be seen. We will need players, fans, Sponsors, MAs, MPs even the Prime Minister to step up and support this. This will take a lot of work we will soon see how the people feel. The CCA meeting is in June We need people that do not like relegation step forward send letters to anyone and everyone listed above.

If the silent majority stay silent than nothing will change only people can effect change.

This post will be my last we hope that others will stay with the debate on both sides.

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03-12-15 02:43PM
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mcgregorm89
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Registered: Apr 2014
Location: Kingston, ON
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quote:
Originally posted by Not Happy
Then lets just cut it back to the best 10 teams in the country never mind the provincial play downs. Then we can run it in small arenas everyone can stay home and watch it on TV.

Wait we have that now its called the Grand Slams and we can all see what big crowds these events draw. For all you Grand Slam fans don't be slighted by this comment I think the Grand Slams are great they just don't bring people out to the arenas. But they have been very successful for TV.



Neither does the brier anymore, attendance is continuing to decline.

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03-12-15 02:48PM
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Borough Boy
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Oct 2007
Location:
Posts: 48

quote:
Originally posted by Not Happy
Then lets just cut it back to the best 10 teams in the country never mind the provincial play downs. Then we can run it in small arenas everyone can stay home and watch it on TV.

Wait we have that now its called the Grand Slams and we can all see what big crowds these events draw. For all you Grand Slam fans don't be slighted by this comment I think the Grand Slams are great they just don't bring people out to the arenas. But they have been very successful for TV.



Let's not be silly, there is a huge distinction , the grand slams are for the best teams in curling, the brier is a national championship for all provinces who now qualify.

They are so distinctly different in quality of field to suggest the brier be turned into a slam type event is proposterous. I would boycott watching all slams if that happened.

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03-12-15 02:59PM
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Borough Boy
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Oct 2007
Location:
Posts: 48

quote:
Originally posted by Not Happy
A lot of talk has been around sponsors I am sure they do not want this headache, and yes I am sure that if 500 or six hundred decide to stop buying a certain brand of coffee that they would not care too much. We will only be using this as a last resort. We know there will be an option put on the table very soon that will suggest a change. Whether they can get the support for this is yet to be seen. We will need players, fans, Sponsors, MAs, MPs even the Prime Minister to step up and support this. This will take a lot of work we will soon see how the people feel. The CCA meeting is in June We need people that do not like relegation step forward send letters to anyone and everyone listed above.

If the silent majority stay silent than nothing will change only people can effect change.

This post will be my last we hope that others will stay with the debate on both sides.



I'm not sure how you figure that you are the silent majority?

I think from postings on this site anyways I would call it, eastern provinces who are in the majority, rest of the country shrugs.

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03-12-15 03:18PM
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mcgregorm89
Swing Artist

 

Registered: Apr 2014
Location: Kingston, ON
Posts: 210

quote:
Originally posted by Not Happy
A lot of talk has been around sponsors I am sure they do not want this headache, and yes I am sure that if 500 or six hundred decide to stop buying a certain brand of coffee that they would not care too much. We will only be using this as a last resort. We know there will be an option put on the table very soon that will suggest a change. Whether they can get the support for this is yet to be seen. We will need players, fans, Sponsors, MA�s, MP�s even the Prime Minister to step up and support this. This will take a lot of work we will soon see how the people feel. The CCA meeting is in June We need people that do not like relegation step forward send letters to anyone and everyone listed above.

If the silent majority stay silent than nothing will change only people can effect change.

This post will be my last we hope that others will stay with the debate on both sides.



Should we write to the Queen as well, seriously the government should be focused on larger issues than the brier being unfair. Writing letters to Harper won't help one bit, he ignores protesters who go on hunger strikes and block rail roads. At least they have a valid reason you guys are just upset. It's just a sport, get over it.

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03-12-15 03:19PM
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ngm
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quote:
Originally posted by Not Happy
Then lets just cut it back to the best 10 teams in the country never mind the provincial play downs.


Because then the link with Brier history is lost completely.

One of the points I made in favour of the relegation system is that it maintains a link to the history of the Brier. Representatives still come from provinces and territories.

Relegation is a change to an existing format. It doesn't mean more change or all change is good.

I added salt to the pasta sauce and it was better than if I had not. Is more salt therefore better? No, of course not.

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03-12-15 03:39PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Dec 2014
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quote:
Originally posted by ngm


Because then the link with Brier history is lost completely.

One of the points I made in favour of the relegation system is that it maintains a link to the history of the Brier. Representatives still come from provinces and territories.

Relegation is a change to an existing format. It doesn't mean more change or all change is good.

I added salt to the pasta sauce and it was better than if I had not. Is more salt therefore better? No, of course not.



Your last statement is possibly the most intelligence I have read on here...speaks volumes to how uninformed most are regarding this subject. Passion is a wonderful thing, but you have to be well informed on all sides of the story, which, I feel is the crux of this matter. The majority of this passion is based on feeling treated unfairly and jumping to the conclusion that Curling Canada is out to get the smaller provinces based on misinformation circulating and believed to be true. That is lack of education, and that, ironically, is unfair.

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03-12-15 05:20PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Gerry


Whether you agree or not, it is the requests from stakeholders in the game that the Scotties and Brier stick to four sheets.



In your opinion, who are the stakeholders? Sponsors? or Warren?

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