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| 10-13-15 06:33PM |
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shaqdaddy
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Sep 2015
Location: Toronto
Posts: 57 |
Gushue said standards need to be looked at, which makes sense obviously. If the broom is taking athleticism out of sweeping there is no evidence to support that yet. Those prospering are already top tier athletes. With respect if Rumfeld and Higgs played front and started eating people w the new heads, then eyebrows would be raised. And why no complaints until now? No one said squat w Carruthers & McEwen kicking ass last year. Think Wayner exaggerates just a tad and coming from a hair broom guy hardly known for his sweeping or athleticism. Where is the other point of view from Carruthers & McEwen? Where they at the players meeting? Gushue? The sky is not falling, the sport is evolving and product specs need to be looked at.
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| 10-13-15 06:36PM |
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shaqdaddy
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Sep 2015
Location: Toronto
Posts: 57 |
What a shock from Goldline!
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| 10-13-15 06:51PM |
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Canardiana
Knee-Slider
Registered: Aug 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 3 |
If carbon fiber sticks ruined the ice and enabled the puck's trajectory to be controlled mid-flight, that analogy would be bang on. But they don't, and it's not.
Goldline's press release seems reasonable. They have to eat too and I think their position on protecting the game is unassailable.
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| 10-13-15 07:27PM |
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shaqdaddy
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Sep 2015
Location: Toronto
Posts: 57 |
If evidence will show ice damage affecting the game, of course that needs to be addressed. CCA needs to do a lot of work & testing as they should. Sure won't happen quickly I wager. Until then it is pure speculation. Someone may first have to wake them up.
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| 10-13-15 07:58PM |
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Toronto_curler
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Jan 2015
Location: Toronto, On
Posts: 20 |
quote:
Originally posted by shaqdaddy
Gushue said standards need to be looked at, which makes sense obviously. If the broom is taking athleticism out of sweeping there is no evidence to support that yet. Those prospering are already top tier athletes. With respect if Rumfeld and Higgs played front and started eating people w the new heads, then eyebrows would be raised. And why no complaints until now? No one said squat w Carruthers & McEwen kicking ass last year. Think Wayner exaggerates just a tad and coming from a hair broom guy hardly known for his sweeping or athleticism. Where is the other point of view from Carruthers & McEwen? Where they at the players meeting? Gushue? The sky is not falling, the sport is evolving and product specs need to be looked at.
Happened to walk around Stu Sells over the weekend - there was certainly a meeting that Carruthers, Gushue and McEwen were all involved in. Like others have said, it was all anybody was talking about.
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| 10-13-15 09:04PM |
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decade
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Jan 2011
Location:
Posts: 1962 |
quote:
Originally posted by fresca
maybe everyone should use them for the next slam
And why wouldn't they?
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| 10-13-15 09:20PM |
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shaqdaddy
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Sep 2015
Location: Toronto
Posts: 57 |
Good idea, would love to see that. Is Jacobs locked to Goldline brooms? Even carrying their banner, they have certainly ditched GL shoes for the Nike training shoe with added soles.
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| 10-14-15 12:16AM |
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RoadTrip
Knee-Slider
Registered: Dec 2014
Location:
Posts: 1 |
quote:
Originally posted by shaqdaddy
Gushue said standards need to be looked at, which makes sense obviously. If the broom is taking athleticism out of sweeping there is no evidence to support that yet. Those prospering are already top tier athletes. With respect if Rumfeld and Higgs played front and started eating people w the new heads, then eyebrows would be raised. And why no complaints until now? No one said squat w Carruthers & McEwen kicking ass last year. Think Wayner exaggerates just a tad and coming from a hair broom guy hardly known for his sweeping or athleticism. Where is the other point of view from Carruthers & McEwen? Where they at the players meeting? Gushue? The sky is not falling, the sport is evolving and product specs need to be looked at.
Rob Rumfeldt spared for Wayne Middaugh this weekend and Team Howard outswept everyone all weekend. What you suggest has happened.
Everything said in the article about what the brushes can do is bang-on. The new BalancePlus brushes are so good that curlers can make a rock curl more, fall and even slow them down.
BalancePlus put a new brush pad into play that destroys Hardline and it's not even close. But it ruins the ice for the next shots that need to travel down the same path. Sweep a spot to make a rock fall and the next rocks down the path will fall as well.
This is not innovation. This is wrong and ruins the integrity of the sport.
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| 10-14-15 12:58AM |
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jcullen
Hitting Paint
Registered: Oct 2006
Location:
Posts: 170 |
I've used Hardline brooms for 3 years(full disclosure: we are a sponsored team) and have seen zero evidence they wreck the ice.
I've heard the new BalancePlus pad that was used this weekend has been what started this whole snowball rolling, and Hardline's brooms have been caught up in the discussion. No one was talking about it last season when Mike and Reid(and us and a few others, though we are lower profile and didn't play on TV until the BC Final) were using the brooms, so it seems weird they're being lumped in now. I know players that feel Hardline brushes give an unfair advantage, so I'm not really here to argue that. I'm all for whatever regulations the players want to bring down the pipe, as I think all players are. I just don't think the brooms ruin the ice in the way BP's are reported to, or at all.
Honestly, in terms of wrecking the ice, I think Hardline brushes have the opposite effect. Because the brooms are designed not to melt pebble, the ice usually holds up longer.
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Last edited by jcullen on 10-14-15 at 01:02AM
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| 10-14-15 08:51AM |
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dks
Hitting Paint
Registered: Oct 2012
Location:
Posts: 119 |
First of all, the statement that teams will have an unfair advantage by using certain brushes is untrue. All teams have a choice on what equipment they use. They may lose sponsorship dollars, but, it still is their choice. If you want to continue to use a wooden brush when alternative brushes are available then don't complain if you can't perform as well.
Second, there seems to be no proof that the new brushes damage the ice more than current bushes. You have just as many people claiming it doesn't damage the ice as people that complain it does.
Third, if brushing is intended to help make a shot, then why wouldn't you want to use the best equipment to help you? Would you use a thinner slider, tighter pants, heavier broom, uncomfortable gloves?
Yes, a better broom may make an average curler make more shots. It will make an elite curler make more shots as well. I'm pretty sure Glenn Howard's team could beat a lot of teams no matter what brooms they use. You still have to perform well regardless. We should embrace new brush technology that improves the game as long as it does not damage the ice.
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| 10-14-15 10:49AM |
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biterbar
Drawmaster
Registered: Mar 2009
Location:
Posts: 695 |
It was stated earlier that the ice was damaged and the game slowed down as the sweepers had to "repair" the line when it had to be used again. IMO you cannot create the control they are talking about without drastically changing the ice permanently.
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| 10-14-15 10:56AM |
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albetts
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Jan 2006
Location: Peterborough
Posts: 1120 |
quote:
Originally posted by biterbar
It was stated earlier that the ice was damaged and the game slowed down as the sweepers had to "repair" the line when it had to be used again. IMO you cannot create the control they are talking about without drastically changing the ice permanently.
I have to agree with you here. Curlers seem to blame the ice now when shots are missed. Now that's all we're going to hear from the skips when they tell their front end to scrub the ice before the next shot. This is getting out of hand. I'm really beginning to wonder if these brooms/brushes can change the ice surface. Just a thought from me.
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| 10-14-15 11:10AM |
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Phil_D
Drawmaster
Registered: May 2014
Location: Joliet, IL
Posts: 629 |
quote:
Originally posted by jcullen
I've used Hardline brooms for 3 years(full disclosure: we are a sponsored team) and have seen zero evidence they wreck the ice.
I've heard the new BalancePlus pad that was used this weekend has been what started this whole snowball rolling, and Hardline's brooms have been caught up in the discussion. No one was talking about it last season when Mike and Reid(and us and a few others, though we are lower profile and didn't play on TV until the BC Final) were using the brooms, so it seems weird they're being lumped in now. I know players that feel Hardline brushes give an unfair advantage, so I'm not really here to argue that. I'm all for whatever regulations the players want to bring down the pipe, as I think all players are. I just don't think the brooms ruin the ice in the way BP's are reported to, or at all.
Honestly, in terms of wrecking the ice, I think Hardline brushes have the opposite effect. Because the brooms are designed not to melt pebble, the ice usually holds up longer.
You're right:
https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/e...-014054743.html
Yup, it sounds like the Balance Plus head is what got all this going.
Makes sense, as like you said the IcePad has been in use for over a season and one would assume that this would have popped up last year. And as you noted, the IcePad is supposed to actually be less damaging to the ice than the previous generation (Norway, EQ) of synthetic heads by design. Of course, that is what the manufacturer claims, so it has to be taken with a grain of salt, but I never saw/heard anything about ice being destroyed by brooms before the Balance Plus head debuted so I think there's some truth to it.
That being said, even before the Balance Plus heads appeared people were voicing their concerns over new technology and where it was headed. Some felt that the IcePad was too effective and gave teams an unfair advantage to the point where it was impacting the integrity of the game by taking away skill from the shooter and giving it to the sweepers. Again though, nothing was ever really said about the ice being screwed up. I think the events of this past weekend caused a slowly simmering issue to reach a boiling point though, which is why Hardline was lumped in.
I don't think anyone is in disagreement that there need to be equipment standards. Even those with significant skin in the game agree. With Pandora's Box already being opened though, it's going to be tricky (to say the least) to come up with a standard that is fair and equitable.
If a broom head is damaging the ice, or significantly altering the playing surface, then it needs to be banned, no question. Affecting your own shot is one thing, but when your sweeping can significantly impact your opponent's shot or drastically change the ice surface then there is a problem.
As for effectiveness, this is where it gets extremely tricky and there is a very very slippery slope. If a broom head is not damaging the ice and is simply more effective should it be banned? Who determines effectiveness? How much is too much?
One thing is for sure, this is not going away anytime soon, and I think it may get worse before it gets better.
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Last edited by Phil_D on 10-14-15 at 11:41AM
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| 10-14-15 11:14AM |
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Phil_D
Drawmaster
Registered: May 2014
Location: Joliet, IL
Posts: 629 |
Teams Feltscher, Paetz, and Tirinzoni have all agreed to use only hair brooms in their playdowns for the European Championships.
This is significant as Team Tirinzoni is a high-profile sponsored team for Hardline. No, they're not Gushue or McEwen, but they are the highest-ranked women's team in the world using the IcePad.
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| 10-14-15 01:51PM |
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Phil_D
Drawmaster
Registered: May 2014
Location: Joliet, IL
Posts: 629 |
quote:
Originally posted by Phil_D
Teams Feltscher, Paetz, and Tirinzoni have all agreed to use only hair brooms in their playdowns for the European Championships.
This is significant as Team Tirinzoni is a high-profile sponsored team for Hardline. No, they're not Gushue or McEwen, but they are the highest-ranked women's team in the world using the IcePad.
Apparently Team Tirinzoni has switched back. Interesting.
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| 10-14-15 03:55PM |
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misty1
Supreme Champion!
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 6002 |
the thing with these brushes is that they make it so that you dont have to actually deliver a rock well to make a shot and thats not fair. when something takes technique out of the equation and athleticism out of the equation its not a change for the better
curlers worked hard to get the game where it is, to be about athleticism and technique
i think if curlers are claiming these brooms damage the ice then they are going to know better than us here who havent used them.If it was someone notorious for blaming the ice or for making excuses it might make you question the reliability of the complaint but the fact that its coming from multiple people who dont really have a history of complaining..
Last edited by misty1 on 10-14-15 at 04:00PM
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| 10-14-15 06:27PM |
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JustAnotherHack
Swing Artist
Registered: Dec 2012
Location: BC, Ontario (and a few other places too...)
Posts: 268 |
For the new Balance Plus brooms... maybe. Haven't seen them in action yet but there seems to be a lot of anecdotal evidence to suggest that they need to be looked at.
But for the Hardline brooms? Please. They've been around for a few seasons now, and suddenly they're a problem? Not buying it. You didn't see a sudden shift of teams as soon as they adopted Hardline brooms... good teams stayed good with the brooms, but they weren't invincible. And they certainly didn't win all the hardware last season.
And I haven't heard ice makers screaming about Hardline brooms wrecking the ice either. I heard more complaints when the initial EQ broom head came out, and with the Norway Pad as well.
If I didn't know better, BP designed a broom which they knew was going to mark up the ice and generate a controversy just so they could point a finger at Hardline. But if we're going to go down this path, we had better take a long look at those original EQ broom heads, the Norway Pad, and any other "innovative" broom design... and make darn sure they are all within whatever rules the WCF and Curling Canada decide to put in place.
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| 10-14-15 08:27PM |
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Phil_D
Drawmaster
Registered: May 2014
Location: Joliet, IL
Posts: 629 |
quote:
Originally posted by Phil_D
Apparently Team Tirinzoni has switched back. Interesting.
And now they're switching back to the hair brooms, and apparently are willingly forfeiting the game they won with their Hardline brooms.
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| 10-14-15 08:35PM |
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shaqdaddy
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Sep 2015
Location: Toronto
Posts: 57 |
That's just dopey. Threats from Euro bozos running upcoming Euros championships? #gojaysgo #cometogether 
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| 10-14-15 09:23PM |
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Phil_D
Drawmaster
Registered: May 2014
Location: Joliet, IL
Posts: 629 |
quote:
Originally posted by shaqdaddy
That's just dopey. Threats from Euro bozos running upcoming Euros championships? #gojaysgo #cometogether
Have a few choice beverages there, my friend? Ha ha ha.
What a game, eh? I hope the Mets can pull it off in the NLDS tomorrow. Jays-Mets series for the big dance would be nice.
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| 10-14-15 09:30PM |
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Phil_D
Drawmaster
Registered: May 2014
Location: Joliet, IL
Posts: 629 |
quote:
Originally posted by Manitoba Legend
I really admire the leadership Homan and Sweeting have shown on this issue!
Agreed. I like what Gushue and McEwen had to say as well.
Hopefully the players will mutually come to some sort of agreement in the interim. Obviously in the long-term the WCF will have to set some sort of standard (I say WCF because this is not just an issue in Canada and Curling Canada will probably mirror whatever WCF adopts), but that is going to take some time to say the least. Things could get very ugly very quickly if nothing is done.
Canada Inns is this weekend (pretty big purse there), and the next GSOC event is in two weeks. Clock is ticking...
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| 10-14-15 09:35PM |
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ngm
Swing Artist
Registered: Feb 2011
Location:
Posts: 272 |
Any video of the kind of rock manoeuvring in action?
Curlers also have a long history of being full of crap, so I wouldn't mind seeing this for myself.
Trust, but verify.
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| 10-14-15 10:09PM |
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Itsjustagame
Hitting Paint
Registered: Aug 2014
Location:
Posts: 106 |
Hardline brooms have been on the market for 5 years now. McEwen and Carruthers have been using them since last season. All of a sudden, they scratch the ice, flatten the pebble and allow you to steer the rock like in a Playstation game?
After McEwen dominance last year, you would think all the top teams would have been using them this season. My only guess is that they did contact Hardline. Every single one of them! The ones not using them now simply did not get the financial package they were looking for or could not get out of the one they had.
As per these brooms making every shot so easy and taking away technique, athleticism, fitness and talent out of the game, please... Brushes took away from the ability to use corn brooms and made most curlers better sweepers. Stopwatches made club curlers capable of judging weight. Technology made the ice and the rocks more consistent, more predictable. And yet, the best teams keep on winning again and again.
EQ pads with their aluminum foil were designed to create more heat, which flattens the pebble. Norway pads with their ridges are designed to scratch the ice. Yet no one complained so far. Rocks hitting a flat spot left by Johnny Mo's knees or Jean-Michel Menard stomach are much more damaging and unsportsmanlike than any of the Hardline, Balance Plus or Goldline brushes.
Without a doubt, curling will need so regulations so that no one goes overboard. In no way do I feel that brushes presently on the market have reached that threshold.
Cheers.
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