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02-29-16 02:46PM
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North60
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quote:
Originally posted by WrongHandle
The tick shot needs to be regulated. It eliminated what could have been a brilliant finish to a great game last night.



I completely agree.

Two ticks in a tied game and a fantastic week is done.

It was a sad way to watch the McCarville team lose.

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02-29-16 03:46PM
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quote:
Originally posted by North60


I completely agree.

Two ticks in a tied game and a fantastic week is done.

It was a sad way to watch the McCarville team lose.



Let's also banish the open hit takeout, the freeze, the peel, any light-weight hit of a rock that is partly buried, and the come-around draw.... The tick shot is no easier than any of those shots but just because a team (player) makes two of those shots it should be regulated or eliminated from the game? Team AB and NO played nine prior ends where there were many excellent shots and a couple of faux pas that ultimately resulted in a tie game heading into the final end. AB played a near flawless final end, as did NO and AB had to draw full 8-foot for the win. The 10th end had much drama and a chance for the team that did not have hammer to win the game. The fact that McCarville did not win the game did not make it "a sad way."

I do not understand why so many people want to try and skew the rules so that the team that does not have hammer can gain an advantage. Both teams jockey so that they might be the team fortunate enough to hold the hammer advantage in the final end of a close game and then have the opportunity to let their skilled lead make two difficult shots which, except for absolute perfection of the tick (leaving both the shooter and the ticked rock a mere inch or two from the boards), will still allow the team without the hammer to make the team with the hammer throw their last shot looking at two opposition counters. All very exciting unless, of course, the team you're cheering for ultimately loses the game.

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02-29-16 04:18PM
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North60
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quote:
Originally posted by FollowingAlong


Let's also banish the open hit takeout, the freeze, the peel, any light-weight hit of a rock that is partly buried, and the come-around draw.... The tick shot is no easier than any of those shots but just because a team (player) makes two of those shots it should be regulated or eliminated from the game? Team AB and NO played nine prior ends where there were many excellent shots and a couple of faux pas that ultimately resulted in a tie game heading into the final end. AB played a near flawless final end, as did NO and AB had to draw full 8-foot for the win. The 10th end had much drama and a chance for the team that did not have hammer to win the game. The fact that McCarville did not win the game did not make it "a sad way."

I do not understand why so many people want to try and skew the rules so that the team that does not have hammer can gain an advantage. Both teams jockey so that they might be the team fortunate enough to hold the hammer advantage in the final end of a close game and then have the opportunity to let their skilled lead make two difficult shots which, except for absolute perfection of the tick (leaving both the shooter and the ticked rock a mere inch or two from the boards), will still allow the team without the hammer to make the team with the hammer throw their last shot looking at two opposition counters. All very exciting unless, of course, the team you're cheering for ultimately loses the game.



A couple things spring to mind.

The 'tick' shot circumvents the FGZ. Sure it's used in the house to 'scootch' rocks around but ticking guards is usually bad. In this way it is quite different than an open hit.

The sad part is that the McCarville team did not get a chance to actually play that last end after those two ticks. I know the shots have to be made and mistakes/bad luck happens but at this level no one is planning a game around mistakes.

I knew this was a contentious subject but every time I see a close game decided with 12 rocks left the whole match just feels a bit let down.

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02-29-16 04:23PM
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quote:
Originally posted by North60


A couple things spring to mind.

The 'tick' shot circumvents the FGZ. Sure it's used in the house to 'scootch' rocks around but ticking guards is usually bad. In this way it is quite different than an open hit.

The sad part is that the McCarville team did not get a chance to actually play that last end after those two ticks. I know the shots have to be made and mistakes/bad luck happens but at this level no one is planning a game around mistakes.

I knew this was a contentious subject but every time I see a close game decided with 12 rocks left the whole match just feels a bit let down.



agree. i mean..that game was brilliant. one of the best scotties finals in a while and it was just a poor ending. after those first 2 shots i left and came back to watch carey's last.

yes misses can happen at any time but at this level you dont expect a skip of chelsey's caliber to miss an open draw to the 8 foot

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02-29-16 04:37PM
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quote:
Originally posted by misty1


agree. i mean..that game was brilliant. one of the best scotties finals in a while and it was just a poor ending. after those first 2 shots i left and came back to watch carey's last.

yes misses can happen at any time but at this level you dont expect a skip of chelsey's caliber to miss an open draw to the 8 foot



She missed a similar draw in the AB semi final against Sweeting in the 10th end to win that game...

Any shot is misable. I'm not sure why two made tick shots would make you leave for 10 minutes thinking the game was over. There was still drama. Carey's team deciding where to place her first rock of the end; McCarville's team trying to determine if it was better to nose hit on their last or try to roll.

Your preference would be for the team without the hammer to throw up a third staggered guard on their shot rock on the button with backing on their last shot leaving the team with the hammer no shot to win the game?

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02-29-16 05:12PM
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Every end must be exciting. The steal possibility must be in play at all times. No games should ever be one-sided. All results must be in doubt until the last stone. And the last shot must be a tough one. Why? To entertain me!

If you don't know very much about elite curling teams, you may think their top priority is to win a game, or to win a championship, or whatever. But in fact, their top priority -- actually their only priority -- is to entertain me!

For this reason, nobody should ever blank an end, or peel a guard, or even tick a guard. These shots ought to be regulated, because they degrade my entertainment.

And there should be at least a dozen rocks in play on every end, and the four-foot should always be covered ... because the most terrible thing that could ever happen to curling would be if I got up off the couch and did something useful for 10 whole minutes during a televised game.

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02-29-16 05:12PM
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quote:
Originally posted by FollowingAlong


She missed a similar draw in the AB semi final against Sweeting in the 10th end to win that game...

Any shot is misable. I'm not sure why two made tick shots would make you leave for 10 minutes thinking the game was over. There was still drama. Carey's team deciding where to place her first rock of the end; McCarville's team trying to determine if it was better to nose hit on their last or try to roll.

Your preference would be for the team without the hammer to throw up a third staggered guard on their shot rock on the button with backing on their last shot leaving the team with the hammer no shot to win the game?



even if anything can happen top skips dont miss that kind of shot very often. maybe 1/100 times. for me its just deflating watching a team thats tied without hammer just going through the motions and hoping a top level team makes a simple miss, knowing that the chances of it happening are 1/100. then come skip rocks and there's really nothing realistic they can do

after tick shots are made the game is greatly simplified. i may not have seen that end but i already know that jocelyn and amy's shots and chelsey's first were pretty straight forward.

i guess i'd just have liked chelsey to have to execute a tougher shot to win.im not asking for a raise triple or a run double or anything like that. but maybe needing more than full 8. after a game that great it deserved more than a simple end of running up and down and playing peels to end it.

its like watching a really fantastic tennis match and it goes to a final set tiebreaker. you want that tiebreaker to be exciting and competitive, you dont want to watch one player win 7-0.

Last edited by misty1 on 02-29-16 at 05:22PM

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02-29-16 05:20PM
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i like the idea that ticked rocks can only be moved so away from the center and maybe you could say that if the shooter's rock goes out of play the rock goes back..granted that doesnt happen often...

the rules were changed to allow guards to stay in play a little longer for a good reason.

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02-29-16 05:50PM
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quote:
Originally posted by WrongHandle
The tick shot needs to be regulated. It eliminated what could have been a brilliant finish to a great game last night.


A couple ideas:

If a rock is on the centre line then it should not be able to be moved off the centre line.

Or there could be lines on one or two feet either side of the centre line in the free guard zone and rocks that come to rest in that zone delimited by those lines cannot be moved outside those lines until you'd normally be allowed to hit (5th rock of the end in 4 rock rule). If rocks are removed from the zone then they are replaced and the shooter is removed as per normal free guard zone rules.


I like the second option. It still allows for some sort of tick shot but it needs to be very precise and even then the ticked rock is still somewhat useful.

I think this would make for many exciting finishes and probably more aggressive play earlier to try to avoid being tied in the last end knowing that you can't tick your way to victory.



Interesting approach. Since Tick shots are the new peels, we have to try something. For those you think new rules change the game, I would suggest the opposite. New rules are an attempt to keep rocks in play like in the old days. Ice-rock-slider-brush-hack technology and better athletes have dramatically affected our sport. These rules are just trying to keep the curl in curling

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02-29-16 08:36PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Par
Every end must be exciting. The steal possibility must be in play at all times. No games should ever be one-sided. All results must be in doubt until the last stone. And the last shot must be a tough one. Why? To entertain me!


You are making a straw man argument.

The possible issue that may be emerging is not that a few ends here and there become foregone conclusions.

It's that all final ends of tied games, or team with hammer with a one point lead (which are very common outcomes of top level games) may become foregone conclusions.

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02-29-16 10:41PM
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No, ngm, I wasn't really making a straw man argument. I was merely summarizing what's being said on the various threads where people are arguing that the rules need to be changed.

I meant it mostly tongue-in-cheek, but I was also trying to provoke a response such as the one you gave: it's not just about how it makes me feel when I watch it, it's about something more important than that.

I still disagree with you but I do respect your position.

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03-01-16 11:12AM
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quote:
Originally posted by ngm


You are making a straw man argument.

The possible issue that may be emerging is not that a few ends here and there become foregone conclusions.

It's that all final ends of tied games, or team with hammer with a one point lead (which are very common outcomes of top level games) may become foregone conclusions.



How quickly people forget.

NO vs. MB 2016 Scotties Page 3-4 game, Einarson is left with a non-routine tap for the win in a tied game - NO steals the win. NO vs. CA 2015 Brier final, Simmons has to draw full 4-foot in the extra end to win. ON vs. AB 2011 Brier final, Koe has to draw a piece of the button in the extra end to win. Those are hardly foregone conclusions and those are just the games I can remember off the top of my head.

To the best of my recollection, the 2016 Scotties final had at least 5 rocks (maybe 6) in play when Carey went to throw her last shot. Anyone who suggests that a draw to the 8-foot to win a national championship is a foregone conclusion has probably never even thrown that same shot to win their club championship let alone a national championship. If someone walked away from the TV with 12 shots left to be played in the game, that was their loss. If they had returned with 6 shots remaining and after Team Carey had bonked a guard along the way they would have said, "How did that happen?" We have one final where a team that controls the hammer in the final end plays a near perfect end and suddenly there needs to be a rule change?

McCarville's team stole many ends in the back half of games including their Page 3-4 game against MB and the semi final game against CA. That didn't happen in the final - oh darn.

The rules should never be such that the team with the hammer can be nearly shut out of scoring in that end.

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03-01-16 12:41PM
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quote:
Originally posted by fresca
tv will destroy curling - the low attendance in arenas is directly related to the 7 minute delays between ends


Do you have any actual facts, stats or interviews to back this up, or are you just making your opinion sounds like the definitive truth?

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03-01-16 01:47PM
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quote:
Originally posted by FollowingAlong


How quickly people forget.

NO vs. MB 2016 Scotties Page 3-4 game, Einarson is left with a non-routine tap for the win in a tied game - NO steals the win.


They didn't try a tick shot with their first. Presumably they won't make that mistake again.

quote:
NO vs. CA 2015 Brier final, Simmons has to draw full 4-foot in the extra end to win.


They missed their tick shot with their first. In 2016 they will not miss the shot. It is so easy to keep a rock straight with 2016 sweeping technique that they won't have to try to tick crossing the face of the guard.

quote:
ON vs. AB 2011 Brier final, Koe has to draw a piece of the button in the extra end to win.


Ancient history.

quote:

Anyone who suggests that a draw to the 8-foot to win a national championship is a foregone conclusion has probably never even thrown that same shot to win their club championship let alone a national championship.


Drawing the 8 foot to win a pro event gets made 9 times out of 10 or more. It is pretty much a foregone conclusion. To miss it would be a massive blunder.

None of this is a problem with club level curling anyway.

quote:

The rules should never be such that the team with the hammer can be nearly shut out of scoring in that end.


If, after an analysis of a year or two's worth of pro games played with new sweeping techniques, it emerges that teams have become able to nearly shut the team without hammer from scoring in a final end absent a massive blunder from the team with hammer, then something will have to be done.

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03-01-16 02:43PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ngm


If, after an analysis of a year or two's worth of pro games played with new sweeping techniques, it emerges that teams have become able to nearly shut the team without hammer from scoring in a final end absent a massive blunder from the team with hammer, then something will have to be done.



You'll just throw out any evidence that does not support your assertion...

Teams that feel they can play the tick shot will; teams that feel they can't play it won't.... I will say that the wider sheet of ice in use at Canadian national championships and at the world championships makes the tick shot easier than in curling clubs where there is typically about a foot less room on either side of the sheet. There was an earlier post, perhaps even by you although I'm not going to go back and see, that suggested not being able to "tick" a guard outside the 4-foot line. That totally defeats the purpose of the tick shot, but maybe if they narrowed the logical boards in the free guard zone such that there was a zone 18" from the boards that if either the ticked rock or the shooter touched, the guard would be replaced, the skill of the tick shot would be even greater.

I do not agree that the tick shot is automatic as you are suggesting. If it was every team would use it as their defense and that is not the case.

Regardless, teams play the game so that they can have the advantage of last rock coming home, hopefully with a lead, but if not with the lead, no worse than tied. It should not be an advantage to not have hammer coming home.

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03-01-16 11:07PM
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quote:
Originally posted by FollowingAlong


Let's also banish the open hit takeout, the freeze, the peel, any light-weight hit of a rock that is partly buried, and the come-around draw....



The tick shot is circumventing the FGZ. The fact it is played early in the end pretty much finishes off the end for the team with hammer if they make the rest of their shots which are usually all peels and then a draw or open hit. If you eliminate the tick shot, then we get to see all those other great shots for an entire end and perhaps if we are lucky an exciting draw to the pin hole.

It used to be that making the tick shot was extremely difficult. It is not that hard anymore with the great ice, the stronger sweepers, new sweeping techniques, better training and the presence of professional career leads who are practicing this shot over and over and in some cases playing the shot all game long (see Team Homan).

The tick shot needs to be regulated to make for a more exciting finish, more intense strategy decisions leading up to that end (perhaps trying to avoid a tie game for instance). Then we can be treated to a display of brilliant shotmaking in the last end, which we deserve and may have been witnessing all game. This would be shotmaking by all players and not just a couple routine ticks by one lead and then the peel/guard loop which I fast forward or turn off.

I thought the FGZ was invented to eliminate the peel/guard scenario.

I'd like to hear what the inventor has to say on the matter.

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03-03-16 05:00PM
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Scotties 3-4 game 10th end replay on Curling Canada YouTube page....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7qgThjKX8Q

10th end starts at 2:08:30

Russ Howard on the commentary... (the inventor.. arguably)... "3 Perfect rocks to start this crucial end... GAME ON..... Cheryl Bernard... on MB 4th stone tap... "Perfect..."

What is not to like from a player or television perspective?

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03-03-16 05:33PM
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As a lead, it would seem pretty counterintuitive to punish a team that can make successful tick shots. While players have become better at them, I don't feel like they ruin the game at all.

If you eliminated ticks, the whole strategy of curling would shift, as scoreboard management becomes less important. My opinion is that if you've managed the game well and you're in a position to be ticking in the last end, power to you. They're still tough shots to execute(though I agree broom tech and ice conditions make them easier) and successful execution should be rewarded, just like any other shot.

I don't see how you think the 10th ends will automatically get more exciting if you eliminate the tick on a lead's first stone, either. There are multiple strategies to take play away from the centre until the team is able to peel. You probably draw to the wing as the hammer team. Then the non-hammer team makes a perfect come around, you tick with the next one, then they're guarding for their lives and you don't think a top team will be able to make a runback on arena ice with 6 rocks remaining, which would then end the game as soon as they make one?

You're assuming banning a tick means the hammer team is going to play along and draw around the guard to create an exciting 10th, and I bet that doesn't happen at all.

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03-04-16 10:24AM
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Once again, in the Scotties 3-4 game there was no tick shot attempted. That was a mistake by MB and they lost the game. I assume they will not make that mistake again.

I don't think there is a huge problem yet, but it might turn into one as ticks become as automatic as peels. We're not there yet, but it's coming.

The rules of play are set up until 2018. With all these Slams in the next few years I would hope the powers that be consider some experiments to see what, if anything, might be done.

Remember, at least three variations on the FGZ were attempted before the 4 rock rule was settled on. Perhaps some day to be 5 for everyone.

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03-04-16 06:15PM
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Since the goal of the FGZ is to provide guards why don't we simplify things with a 2 Guard Rule: both teams put up a guard on the four foot with their first stone. We've tried the 3 rock rule, then the 4 rock and soon the 5 rock rule. A 2 guard rule is simple and efficient.

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03-04-16 09:55PM
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quote:
[i]

You're assuming banning a tick means the hammer team is going to play along and draw around the guard to create an exciting 10th, and I bet that doesn't happen at all. [/B]


Not at all. I am hoping the team with hammer plays anything but the tick shot. They can do whatever they want. Game on! If they make the double peel, fine. It just means the team without should have thrown better guards.

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03-09-16 11:31PM
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I have seen 9 games live at the brier or on TV in which tick shots have been played and 17 of 18 tick shots were made. The only one I saw missed was by Scott Howard and Glenn ended up having to draw the button for the win. All the others were boring endings and all those games deserved more challenging finishes. The most interesting of the bunch was NL against ON in which Gushue tried many different locations to try to put a guard to get a miss but never did. The ticks are just too easy for the top teams on the good ice. Even on frosty ice Gushue's team made two ticks tonight.

I'd like to see the official stats on tick shots made. Does that exist?

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03-10-16 01:46AM
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Marco2010
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Mar 2011
Location: Montral
Posts: 81

Yep the tick shot is the new peel. No matter if we had a 5 rock FGZ ticks bring us back to square one: no center guards to steal points. We need a 2 Guard Rule: Both leads have to put their rock as a guard on the four foot.

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03-10-16 08:21AM
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5thstone
Hitting Paint

 

Registered: Dec 2013
Location: Southern Manitoba
Posts: 154

Leave the tick alone. Its a skill to do it. If anything, losing hammer if you blank the end would solve a lot of problems. Add another 5 minutes of 'thinking' time and only having 1 time out while we're out at it.

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03-11-16 04:15PM
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Marco2010
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Mar 2011
Location: Montral
Posts: 81

I agree with you. Losing the hammer if you blank is an interesting option. The team with last rock will attack and the team without last rock won't be able to tick themselves out of the end because ticking a corner guard is practicallyu impossible. It will be very difficult to roll both rocks inches from the boards.

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