Registered: Mar 2014
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It is impossible to overhaul or judge progress on something that has no definition, goals, methods, or accountability. Not to mention no consistency across teams, genders, ages or performance levels. How the Jr. Men are treated is different than the women than the jr. women, than the men (presumably).

It seems like the process depends on which coach shows up at which event.

It is so easy to be a hater, to criticize the teams, players, coaches and organizations. I wish the HPP would give us something concrete to get behind and work with both as fans and as athletes. Frankly, the investment out of pocket to make it to the elite level seems hard to justify when a random individual can change your hard work into a pipe dream with a wave of their hand. Them are taters

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Registered: Feb 2012
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Posts: 324

quote:

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Originally posted by RockDoc


...To get better, I suspect we will need a sustained level of regular training which is informed by regular performance assessment. And the coaches should be assessed as well. What are our short-term and intermediate coaching/training goals? How do we know we are making progress? (It will be too late if we measure our progress by how many medals we win in the next Olympics.) We need to measure and quantify the progress of our ...

Part of the problem is that we probably do not have enough funds to do this properly, so we are trying to do it on the cheap, and we are trying to do it with short-term payoff goals only. The long-term way to do this is to develop ...

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Registered: Mar 2015
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Posts: 9

of course the HPP program is an aimless, rudderless, money grubbing, life sapping endeavor with no bigger intention than to ruin every team and player it comes in contact with....they certainly wouldn't be having their players doing regimented and scheduled workouts, or working with a sports psychologist, or going to the olympic training center in Colorado for a week of world class training. Nor would they ask these teams to come to 4 or 5, 3 to 4 day camps at a National Training Center where they work specifically on technical (delivery and sweeping), tactical (strategy) skils, and spend time practicing as a team to work on dynamics (team) skils. no they would never do such a thing. and they certainly would never suggest that the athletes send in weekly reports on these things and have practice and training plans based on the results.

they are all just waiting for their next giant paycheck to cash so they have money to take on their next vacation. you see I think they were being quiet about this but the HPP has really been tring to destroy all competitive US curling....but now the cat's out of the bag! and really if we don't win medals now...who cares? that's all the USOC wants anyway, right? I know they've invested more money in our junior program than ever before in the last two years...but juniors don't need money...let's just go back to them having to fend completely for themselves. and I know that the HPP has a bunch of young players in the mix...but getting them to the world stage now won't matter down the road...didn't seem to work for Eve, or Niklaus, or anybody else that keeps showing up at these events.

obviously we'd rather blame the HPP for not doing anything when junior teams get relegated and we are forced to go to spend 20K per team to go to Finland next year just to qualify for Worlds. and we don't care that we wouldn't have a Junior Nationals because that Finland event just happens to be at the same time. no problem.

I sure hate the HPP for all of the horrible things they are doing! and they sure must hate curling and the 320 million people they work for when they are coaching Team USA at the Worlds and Olympics and they obviously really hate that other 20000 in the membership too. seems like all they want is to lose and lose badly, be lazy and fly around the world....boy I wish they cared....I wish they wanted to win...I wish they wanted to do something special...I wish they wanted to help good players become great players and good people become better people....I wish they had a dream and a vision that I could get behind.


First and last post for a lifetime! Boy does it sound silly!

Last edited by SillyRock on 03-18-15 at 04:51PM

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Registered: Feb 2012
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Posts: 324

Even if the USA was as dominant as Canada at world level, I'd still hope our national competitive program(s) constantly work to improve by soliciting annual input at least from all nationally ranked curlers as well as from those curlers' coaches even if such input year after year said 51% or more of those curlers were 100% satisfied with the program(s).

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Registered: Mar 2014
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Posts: 107

Yes, among the HPP problems is a perception problem, because their unpopular acts have been higher profile than the work and effort. Positive results on the world stage are the only way to prove the hard work is there and the direction is correct, but the selection method of our national teams is constantly out front.

Until we start seeing medals at Worlds or the HPP teams significantly outclassing the rest of the American teams expect the criticism to continue.

On the plus side, at least we're not as bad as Canada. After reading some of the comments about Jones this week I thought maybe she hadn't won a game yet.

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Registered: Feb 2013
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Posts: 812

quote:

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Originally posted by Flat Hat
It is impossible to overhaul or judge progress on something that has no definition, goals, methods, or accountability. Not to mention no consistency across teams, genders, ages or performance levels. How the Jr. Men are treated is different than the women than the jr. women, than the men (presumably).

It seems like the process depends on which coach shows up at which event.

It is so easy to be a hater, to criticize the teams, players, coaches and organizations. I wish the HPP would give us something concrete to get behind and work with both as fans and as athletes. Frankly, the investment out of pocket to make it to the elite level seems hard to justify when a random individual can change your hard work into a pipe dream with a wave of their hand. Them are taters

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Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 4002

Aimless, rudderless analysis of the program maybe...

Just so you know, the athletes do review the program, coaches are evaluated and judged on their usefulness to the program.

Targets are set for the teams and are then evaluated based on whether they're achieved or not. To suggest otherwise is to not understand how sports work.

The staff involved know what it takes to win at the International level. Many have past Worlds and Olympics experience, some even have medals from those events.

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Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Plymouth, MN
Posts: 159

Simple Fix:
Step 1 - Winner of US Nationals is Team USA at Worlds.

Step 2 - HP program keeps hand picking teams to fund for the season. HP program is evaluated base on whether or not players that were in the program for a season choose to apply for the program the next season.

OOM points can only be used for teams to earn a spot at Nationals. This system is no where near good enough to base your World Team selection on. I don't think any point system really could be good enough.

I think the number one issue that is upsetting people is the World Team selection by points. This has been a horrible idea ever since it started because it is unfair and it DOES NOT increase Team USA's chances of earning a medal at Worlds.

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Registered: Sep 2011
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quote:

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Originally posted by MNIceman
Simple Fix:
Step 1 - Winner of US Nationals is Team USA at Worlds.

Step 2 - HP program keeps hand picking teams to fund for the season. HP program is evaluated base on whether or not players that were in the program for a season choose to apply for the program the next season.

OOM points can only be used for teams to earn a spot at Nationals. This system is no where near good enough to base your World Team selection on. I don't think any point system really could be good enough.

I think the number one issue that is upsetting people is the World Team selection by points. This has been a horrible idea ever since it started because it is unfair and it DOES NOT increase Team USA's chances of earning a medal at Worlds.

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Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 4002

quote:

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Originally posted by MNIceman
Simple Fix:
Step 1 - Winner of US Nationals is Team USA at Worlds.

Step 2 - HP program keeps hand picking teams to fund for the season. HP program is evaluated base on whether or not players that were in the program for a season choose to apply for the program the next season.

OOM points can only be used for teams to earn a spot at Nationals. This system is no where near good enough to base your World Team selection on. I don't think any point system really could be good enough.

I think the number one issue that is upsetting people is the World Team selection by points. This has been a horrible idea ever since it started because it is unfair and it DOES NOT increase Team USA's chances of earning a medal at Worlds.

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Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 2613

While I agree with Mn Iceman's premise and points of contention, I disagree with his solution.

The answer seems to be in a broader approach. As we've slipped down the path of more concentrated funding, the results haven't justified the undemocratic nature of the program that rubs most of us the wrong way.

Gone should be the days when only a select few are exposed to high level coaching. Gone should be the days when it is only the rich or the funded that get to see top competition on a regular basis.

Let's find a program that brings top competition to us so many can afford it. Let's find a way to pass the knowledge of our coaches to a broader base of competitive curlers. Let's find a program that encourages more curlers to become very dedicated...not fewer. After that, let's find a way to sell it to the USOC...for that is the hard part.

Ben Tucker
Haven't disagreed with Mn Iceman for a long time...feels good

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Registered: Mar 2014
Location:
Posts: 86

quote:

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Originally posted by SillyRock
of course the HPP program is an aimless, rudderless, money grubbing, life sapping endeavor with no bigger intention than to ruin every team and player it comes in contact with....they certainly wouldn't be having their players doing regimented and scheduled workouts, or working with a sports psychologist, or going to the olympic training center in Colorado for a week of world class training. Nor would they ask these teams to come to 4 or 5, 3 to 4 day camps at a National Training Center where they work specifically on technical (delivery and sweeping), tactical (strategy) skils, and spend time practicing as a team to work on dynamics (team) skils. no they would never do such a thing. and they certainly would never suggest that the athletes send in weekly reports on these things and have practice and training plans based on the results.

they are all just waiting for their next giant paycheck to cash so they have money to take on their next vacation. you see I think they were being quiet about this but the HPP has really been tring to destroy all competitive US curling....but now the cat's out of the bag! and really if we don't win medals now...who cares? that's all the USOC wants anyway, right? I know they've invested more money in our junior program than ever before in the last two years...but juniors don't need money...let's just go back to them having to fend completely for themselves. and I know that the HPP has a bunch of young players in the mix...but getting them to the world stage now won't matter down the road...didn't seem to work for Eve, or Niklaus, or anybody else that keeps showing up at these events.

obviously we'd rather blame the HPP for not doing anything when junior teams get relegated and we are forced to go to spend 20K per team to go to Finland next year just to qualify for Worlds. and we don't care that we wouldn't have a Junior Nationals because that Finland event just happens to be at the same time. no problem.

I sure hate the HPP for all of the horrible things they are doing! and they sure must hate curling and the 320 million people they work for when they are coaching Team USA at the Worlds and Olympics and they obviously really hate that other 20000 in the membership too. seems like all they want is to lose and lose badly, be lazy and fly around the world....boy I wish they cared....I wish they wanted to win...I wish they wanted to do something special...I wish they wanted to help good players become great players and good people become better people....I wish they had a dream and a vision that I could get behind.


First and last post for a lifetime! Boy does it sound silly!

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Registered: May 2014
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Posts: 143

quote:

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Originally posted by Gerry


If Order of Merit points are only used to qualify teams for Nationals, what reason is there for most teams to go and play the bigger events in Canada?

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Registered: May 2014
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Posts: 143

quote:

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Originally posted by tuck
While I agree with Mn Iceman's premise and points of contention, I disagree with his solution.

The answer seems to be in a broader approach. As we've slipped down the path of more concentrated funding, the results haven't justified the undemocratic nature of the program that rubs most of us the wrong way.

Gone should be the days when only a select few are exposed to high level coaching. Gone should be the days when it is only the rich or the funded that get to see top competition on a regular basis.

Let's find a program that brings top competition to us so many can afford it. Let's find a way to pass the knowledge of our coaches to a broader base of competitive curlers. Let's find a program that encourages more curlers to become very dedicated...not fewer. After that, let's find a way to sell it to the USOC...for that is the hard part.

Ben Tucker
Haven't disagreed with Mn Iceman for a long time...feels good

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Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 4002

quote:

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Originally posted by rbi


1. you play top competition and get better
2. you play on top-quality arena ice and get better
3. you reach a bigger TV audience and attract better sponsors
4. you earn OOM points and get an invitation to Nationals
5. you earn incredible pride and confidence if you win games
6. you have a great time and come home with stories to tell your grandkids some day.

why on earth would you NOT go and play the bigger events in Canada?

I actually think the free pass to worlds is not even a top motivator compared to some of the others listed above. I bet the players don't even like the free-pass-to-worlds thing because it can't be a great feeling to finish 3rd and then go to worlds instead of the others who beat you at Nationals.

The system is broken and should be fixed. It's not a difficult fix.

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Registered: Mar 2009
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Posts: 61

quote:

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Originally posted by Gerry
The staff involved know what it takes to win at the International level. Many have past Worlds and Olympics experience, some even have medals from those events.

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Registered: Mar 2015
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Posts: 9

quote:

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Originally posted by Flat Hat

So you're saying there's a plan? A dream? A vision? A countability? or are you seriously that disillusioned?

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Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 4002

quote:

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Originally posted by Frykenstein


Gerry, we've heard repeatedly from you and various HPP staff that:
* the curling world has evolved dramatically in the last decade or so
* the approach the US used to take, and which occasionally produced a medal, is now insufficient; if we ever want to be better than mediocre, we need to shake things up. As you wrote earlier today, "If you are happy with 5th place, then stick to the old ways."

Understood.

But then you argue that the HPP staff, with their accumulated int'l experience and medals, is well positioned to usher US curling into this new, more competitive environment.

HPP coaches Pete Fenson, Ann Swisshelm, and John Benton brought home two medals in eight Oly and Worlds appearances from 2000-2009, the most recent nearly a decade ago. In their seven int'l appearances from 2010-2014 they finished no higher than 4th; four times they finished in last place.

If I channel my inner Gerry, I'd summarize like this: Fenson et al. were part of an archaic system that produced only moderate and occasional success, and back when success was easier to come by than it is today.

So what it is about their resumes and 9- and 12-year-old medals that's evidence to you that these same people "know what it takes to win at the International level"? Aren't those medals just artifacts of "the old ways"? And didn't they prove on the ice (and now off, as coaches) that they *don't* know what it takes to win now?

Derek and his coaching staff may in fact be highly qualified and well suited to their jobs (and I don't mean to disrespect what they've done on the ice), but I think you're trying to have it both ways. You can't dismiss "the old ways" and simultaneously cite them as evidence of the HPP staff's value.

mf

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Registered: May 2014
Location:
Posts: 143

quote:

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Originally posted by Gerry


I wonder why you wouldn't do it either, but teams didn't. It's been since 2009/10 that a USA team ranked high enough to play in the Grand Slams. All other medal contenders at the Worlds did it.

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Registered: Sep 2011
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well the problem is that it costs money to travel to canada and compete and the stronger the event the more money it costs to enter. for teams who dont get funding its not easy to do and simpler to play mostly in the US

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Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Hill Valley
Posts: 13

If OOM points were used to qualify for Nationals, how might that work? Set a minimum total that each team must have earned; rank the teams based on OOM and qualify the top 8; some other ideas?

In looking at the OOM points as of 12/9/2014 as posted by USCA there is quite a range.

Men
1 - 37.651
4 - 11.215
8 - 2.5

Women
1 - 27.25
4 - 4.5
8 - 0.75

I see curling beginning it's separation into levels similar to other sports. The analogy is in house vs traveling vs select leagues we see in sports like hockey, soccer, baseball and others. That development model of separation evolved due to the primary desire to improve the competiveness at the top and still provide opportunity to participate to all. As you rise in the ranks the athlete must increase their commitment not only in time and effort, but in resources to travel and participate. It's their choice to pursue or not. Their are more resources focused on the fewer at the top on a per participant basis. All still have the opportunity to play, but you have to qualify and then achieve and progress to move up. Those selections are also controversial and have their faults. They also took years to evolve talent at the top once they established the different levels.

This development model of levels has been used in other sports for decades. It appears this is the direction curling is going.

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Registered: Mar 2014
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Posts: 86

quote:

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Originally posted by SillyRock


no. my first paragraph doesn't say anything about a plan or what's being done. and if you've met any of the staff you know they have zero desire to help the athletes get better, no dreams of success, no vision of creating a great and lasting program. yep, just collecting paychecks and trying to win medals now. that's exactly why they passed on the experienced players and started a youth movement in the program...to win now.

furthermore, it makes perfect sense that we people who are not playing, coaching, or part of the USOC would care more than the actual coaches, players, and administrators. after all, we have so much to lose.

and let's not forget that going to worlds is a right and something that everyone is entitled to do. it's not the responsibility that the HPP would have us believ it is. it's not like the usoc has anything to say about it anyway...even if they are paying for all of it. i mean it's only olympic qualification on the line. so why not let any schmo throw a team together, play well for 15 or 16 days and become Team USA. that's more American and sure was getting us good results.

i'd really hate it if the HPP invited all of us to camp sometime...we'd have to sit through all of this garbage they call training and listen to people who have all this National, World, and Olympic experience blab on and on about how to get better. and many of them were only front end players...they certainly couldn't know what it takes. i just couldn't see myself freeing up 4 or 5 weekends and a whole week to do that. that would be crazy.

i'd also hate it if any of the athletes came out and talked about and supported the program. people with humility, gratitude, and sense of what it takes really bother me.

getting sillier and sillier by the minute
so silly that I posted again!

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Registered: Mar 2009
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Posts: 61

quote:

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Originally posted by Gerry

Sure, it's a good question...

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Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 4002

quote:

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Originally posted by Frykenstein

I thought so too. But I don't think you really answered it.

Why do you cite Fenson's and Swisshelm's 9- and 12-year-old medals--themselves artifacts of "the old ways" you decry--as evidence that they're well-positioned to bring about change? Yes, they have experience. I wasn't questioning that. I'm questioning why the HPP's more recent--and, if I understand your position, salient--results don't seem as important to you as their resumes.

mf

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Registered: Jan 2007
Location: Dartmouth, NS
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quote:

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Originally posted by SillyRock

and let's not forget that going to worlds is a right and something that everyone is entitled to do!

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