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I didn't watch a lot of the last spiel on Sportsnet, but Howard's team was definitely using the one sweeper strategy with north south sweeping, which before the game he spoke out against yet used it during the game. Someone should ask him how much financially he has benefited from Balance Plus in his career.

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quote:

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Originally posted by shaqdaddy
Wake up people and call BS on this WCF garbage! This Euro gang again calling the shots no doubt pushed by GL & BP. Any reasonable observer should see thru this ridiculous action by WCF, esp in mid season. Now it's the insert, last week directional etc. Total witch hunt. Anyone bother to listen toHarris & Martin discuss at Slam that the curling world via Gushue, has discovered technical advances of one side sweeping? They pointed out this is true w any brush. Yes testing needed but totally unreasonable mid season ruling to both HL & HL teams. Their comments will be interesting. This WCF behaviour really makes the sport look bush. Poor Euros stuck with GL dinosaur brooms.

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Archie M quote from his press release...

To our detractors who say we are not co-operating, Hardline Curling has had discussions with the WCF and provided them with several options for an equitable standard for elite level competition, including removing all inserts – plastic inserts, foil, foam ridges – and just have an accepted fabric against a cushion or foam. It is unfortunate that none of these solutions have been adopted, because we feel that it would provide the proper standard and equal playing field that is being requested, which is what everyone is striving for.

Amen.

To the previous poster Keaner... Can you describe to us non elite players what you mean by "properly used" with a plastic insert brush? I think lost in all this debate is how the elite teams accomplish things with brooms that us club curlers do not understand?

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Amen and amen. Open eyes folks.

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shaqdaddy

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Well I hate to say I told you so but...

After reading then carefully re-reading today's statements from the WCF and then Hardline two things stand out very, very clearly.

First, the WCF is obviously not relying on hard data accumulated from proper scientific testing. In my opinion I would be willing to bet they have done none at all and are relying, instead, on the subjective opinions of some high profile athletes who may, or may not, have ulterior motives. In fact, the WCF alludes to video evidence which I can only surmise is the two, laughable videos coughed up by Balance Plus.

I think its also important to note that the WCF continues to not name any products but simply produce vague outlines regarding materials and providing very poor leadership to curlers around the world.

Second, the press release from Hardline hints at an owner increasingly frustrated by what looks more and more like a deliberate, planned campaign against their product. Based on some of the comments made by Hardline I believe this is a company very close to launching legal action(s) against the WCF, its competitors and quite possibly some of the curlers who have been making the outlandish claims.

If that becomes the case, I don't think, given the lack of real data to back up statements, I would want to be any of those individuals. The courts tend to like to see facts, not overblown hyperbole making fake claims of backing up a stone four feet.

One thing is clear, this is like that old Chinese curse:

May you live in interesting times...

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Last edited by jamcan on 11-18-15 at 09:36PM

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quote:

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Originally posted by Itsjustagame


Coincidently again, the wording of the WCT statement made sure of pointing out the Hardline insert but not the ones of BP and GL.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Itsjustagame


To the players like Glenn, Richard and MaryAnne that have made this a personnal matter, just who is it again that sponsors your team? Please find another reason as per why you cannot win anymore. If Gushue and McEwen have been winning it all, could you just simply recognize that they are the best teams in the world right now?

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quote:

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Originally posted by peteski


Really? You think Mary-Anne has made so much money off her brush sponsors that she would intentionally throw around baseless accusations to cover for her sponsor? It can't just be that these people have an opinion on what effect brushing should have on the game, they have to be shills instead?

I don't think anyone doubts that Gushue and McEwen are the best in the game, but does that mean they're entitled to brushing advantages?

I admit I don't know enough to know what brushes should not be allowed. I don't think anyone here does. I am happy to leave that to the governing bodies who undoubtedly realize that the game cannot be allowed to be made into the farce that would result if brushing became more of a factor than shotmaking.

Hopefully, fair testing has been done or will be done to determine this going forward. But, some here are making it clear that it wouldn't matter what resulted from any such testing anyway. They would accuse them of favouritism if it doesn't go their way.

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quote:

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Originally posted by jamcan


Three things Peteski:

One, NO team or player has the right to bully or harass other teams when NO rule has been broken. I don't give a rat's ass who they are, how many things they've won or how much money they have. They have no business pointing fingers at anyone. They are not morally superior than any other curler, recreational or competitive.

Two, you are making pure speculation that Gushue and McEwen have brushing advantages. There has been no testing or data to back up any of the claims being made.

Three, there is no way that the WCF could have yet performed and completed the kind of testing required to prove the hypothesis that its the brooms. There has not been sufficient time to conduct the kind of experiments needed.

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quote:

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Originally posted by peteski

they had to have some rules in place for the upcoming major championships did they not?

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quote:

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Originally posted by milobloom


Just to confirm, Hardline brooms were used in events the last 2 seasons, correct?

They don't HAVE to put in rules in a mad rush without proper analysis and consultation across players, manufacturers and governing bodies.

Sometimes scrambling to make a decision because you were behind is not always the best course of action, but I can understand why the WCF (and likely CCA shortly) would jump and possibly create a mess (like a law suit).

Me thinks this will go on all season and possibly into next. Let's just hope it's resolved before the Olympics.

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Everyone should use corn brooms until all the testing is done properly and completely, and a final decision is made regarding all allowable criteria for broom heads.

And no dipping the corn brooms in 7up...

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Ok, On the Nose! Let the chaff fly! But would WCF's newest rules let us use the corn brooms with those flat stiffeners inside them? And what exactly does 7-up do for corn brooms?

quote:

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Originally posted by On The Nose
Everyone should use corn brooms until all the testing is done properly and completely, and a final decision is made regarding all allowable criteria for broom heads.

And no dipping the corn brooms in 7up...

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Please, please don't turn this into a witch hunt by BP & GL against HL. All parties WCF and CCA are looking at the integrity of the game. Period the end.
The problem that has led us to where we are today is that there have been NO measures and standards for brooms. The WCF nor the CCA have ever commented on what can be manufactured and what cannot. The only caveat has been that it cannot mar the ice.
HL in their own innovation has created a product that has transcended the game. Kudos to them. But by doing this the question has to be asked have they gone too far?
If in the current game shooting skill is 80-90% of the game and sweeping is 10 - 20% then the best players rise to the top. If utilizing these brooms makes shooting 50 - 60% skill and 40 - 50% sweeping, then this radically changes the dynamics of our game. This raises another question. Where does this put Canada as a Curling Power if sweeping becomes almost an equal part of shot-making rather than the skill of delivering a rock.
About 10 yrs ago, when Arnold Palmer went over to Callaway he promoted a driver with a higher COR so the average golfer could hit it further. In this case, these brooms might be better for the average curler to help them make shots (provided they know when and how to use them). But for our elite athletes, the WCF ruling makes total sense to maintain the integrity of our sport.
People, if we are only going to use one sweeper, then the IOC is going to look at our sport and say we only need 3 members of a team. How would that affect our sport?
So please do not make this out to be a witch hunt against HL. I think they have done a marvelous job of pushing the boundaries of what can be done with a broom. We need to step back, take a deep breath and look at the integrity and spirit of our game and do "WHAT IS RIGHT, REASONABLE and FAIR" to all parties.

Last edited by My three sons on 11-19-15 at 09:24AM

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Valid BUT not handled properly at all. Logically foil plates and Norway ridges should also be banned while SCIENCE is tested. BP stunt was brutal, why are foil plates + ridges not banned? What about Goo, Carruthers, McEwen etc? I will never buy BP PRODUCT again.

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shaqdaddy

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SD...this is a free world. You are entitled to your own opinion and do whatever you feel is right.
I have no preference for any product, but I do know that BP pushed the boundaries to prove a point. That unless the WCF put some form of standards in place then this was going to become ridiculous as to how the brush heads can manipulate a rock.
I don't disagree that ALL brush heads need to be tested. But prior to the HL broom, there really was no new technology. There is now a race amongst manufacturers/teams/countries to do more testing and see if they can get an edge.
I give Brad Gushue full credit for recognizing that he was getting his ass handed to him by McEwen and Carruthers, and it was through their use of the HL broom. He took his findings to the CCA back in the spring and they said deal with it.
He switched to HL because of this. He has been very forthcoming in what he was doing to ALL parties. Was it in the best spirit of the game or in the best interest of his pocketbook? It was in his best interest to be competitive with those teams. It left everyone else playing catch-up.
He took his own testing and play to another level yet.
Is it FAIR? Is this the new NORM? Should teams be able to make a rock fall and curl at will? I think common sense should prevail. For the love of the game.
The point is, the curling elite do need to establish ACCEPTABLE guidelines for brooms. Otherwise Canada will find itself fighting to stay in the top 10 in the world because it will become a sweeping game rather than a skill throwing game.

Last edited by My three sons on 11-19-15 at 09:58AM

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quote:

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Originally posted by My three sons
Please, please don't turn this into a witch hunt by BP & GL against HL. All parties WCF and CCA are looking at the integrity of the game. Period the end.
The problem that has led us to where we are today is that there have been NO measures and standards for brooms. The WCF nor the CCA have ever commented on what can be manufactured and what cannot. The only caveat has been that it cannot mar the ice.
HL in their own innovation has created a product that has transcended the game. Kudos to them. But by doing this the question has to be asked have they gone too far?
If in the current game shooting skill is 80-90% of the game and sweeping is 10 - 20% then the best players rise to the top. If utilizing these brooms makes shooting 50 - 60% skill and 40 - 50% sweeping, then this radically changes the dynamics of our game. This raises another question. Where does this put Canada as a Curling Power if sweeping becomes almost an equal part of shot-making rather than the skill of delivering a rock.
About 10 yrs ago, when Arnold Palmer went over to Callaway he promoted a driver with a higher COR so the average golfer could hit it further. In this case, these brooms might be better for the average curler to help them make shots (provided they know when and how to use them). But for our elite athletes, the WCF ruling makes total sense to maintain the integrity of our sport.
People, if we are only going to use one sweeper, then the IOC is going to look at our sport and say we only need 3 members of a team. How would that affect our sport?
So please do not make this out to be a witch hunt against HL. I think they have done a marvelous job of pushing the boundaries of what can be done with a broom. We need to step back, take a deep breath and look at the integrity and spirit of our game and do "WHAT IS RIGHT, REASONABLE and FAIR" to all parties.

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Last edited by Dynomite2910 on 11-19-15 at 10:15AM

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D2910 is bang on. BTW others have looked up Gushues history and he was NOT getting beat up by McEwen and Carruthers .....again lack of facts.

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shaqdaddy

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One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that the new ruling could affect club curlers once the CCA & OCA follow suit. Most leagues and bonspiels use the OCA rules to govern their play, and depending how the OCA words their ban it could be pretty far reaching.

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There is so much biased and opinion based crap to comb through that this whole thing is a tangled mess that may never feel completely settled to some parties.

The closest things that I have seen to hard, evidentiary exhibits are:
1. We have Gerry posting that article stating that an inverted Icepad did the exact same things to a rock as the competitor's pads while using the same questionable "sweeping techniques".
2. We have Mary-Anne A. with a phone video of a team using non-inverted Icepads combined with bold corner sweeping to make the draw shot fall out.
3. We have Team Gushue, along with some others, showing us that any broom used properly by only one sweeper can be more effective than we previously thought by eliminating the counter-effect from the second sweeper on the opposing side.

I guess I don't understand how anyone can argue that there is not a witch-hunt going on, when it seems obvious that the brooms are a much smaller factor than the sweeping itself? Yet, the sweeping does not seem to be getting the scrutiny and the brooms are. I just can't figure out why. I remember when I was a competitive junior curler, our coach taught us high side and low side sweeping, and even using only one sweeper to make a rock curl or not curl. We used two sweepers if it needed to carry farther only. Now this was some 10-15 years ago. And, at that time there were rules in place about your broom stroke covering the entirety of the rock's running surface. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that this is the effect of eliminating rules on corner sweeping combined with technological advancements in brooms. And it REALLY bugs me that only the brooms are getting the blame.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Skinz
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that the new ruling could affect club curlers once the CCA & OCA follow suit. Most leagues and bonspiels use the OCA rules to govern their play, and depending how the OCA words their ban it could be pretty far reaching.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dynomite2910


I really really hope that don't create 2 sets of rules for elite and club curlers.

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One thing I keep seeing in the discussion around this are statements like...

"I hope that testing is or has been done..."

"Hopefully fair testing has been done or will be done..."

"We have not yet received any test results or how tests were administered, or what pads were tested. "

If you look carefully at the WCF statement it reads ...

"The decision to enact this moratorium was not taken lightly and is based on athlete observation and testimony, video evidence and further supported by analysis, under competition conditions, of various brush head fabrics, types of construction and their potential to negatively impact the ice surface."


Basically I read that as they are basing their decisions on what they've seen on TV and one whoever's 'testimony' they are listening to.

IMHO, there is no way anyone has carried out proper scientific testing since this all started. Just think of how complicated to truly do it properly would be.

First you have to decide what you are testing and how.

Then to do it properly you likely need a mechanical throwing device, a mechanical sweep device and a sheet of ice that is maintained at an ideal state over the life of all tests.

As far as I know, there is no such official curling test facility. My guess is that barn in Men with Brooms is the closest thing we have to an official test facility !?!

Do you think you can run these tests using human testers to throw and sweep ?
How do you know they throw it the same every time ?
How do you know they sweep the same every time ?
How do you know the ice conditions are unchanged ?
etc etc etc etc....

Can curling even afford to carry out proper testing ? And if the answer is no, what is going to be acceptable and sufficient.

Most importantly, I would think you need to clearly document the methodology so that manufacturers can recreate the test themselves and conduct their own testing during new product development.

I think it is going to be lot more complicated and expensive to get proper standards and testing in place than anyone realizes.

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The real crime in all of this is that I am not as interested in curling as much as I was before all this controversy broke out. I certainly won't be spending my money on this sport that can't get its equipment sorted out and seems to play favorites with manufacturers.

Oh well.

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Dynomite2910, I know that BP has a mechanical thrower (it was shown in 1 video released). So that part of the testing is fine.

However, how do you test sweeping? A mechanical sweeper is far more complicated. No to mention, there is really no proof as to why sweeping works. Some theories, like scratches, heating, micromelting, etc, but no known test.

The testing is going to be very complicated to perform. It is going to be even more complicated to design (ie what are we actually testing for).

I think due to this difficulty, this is the reason for going backwards. More or less, prior to new broom tech from IcePad, everyone seemed happy with what you could or could not do with sweeping. So in my opinion the new rules basically states, lets go back to that point to try to shut everyone up for a while, and figure out how to do the testing.

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