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04-06-15 01:21AM
Par is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Par Click here to Send Par a Private Message Find more posts by Par Add Par to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Par
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Registered: Feb 2006
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How To Restore Canadian Dominance To World Curling

Well, here we are again: another winter gone, no gold for Canadian men or women.

The changes that brought us the newly "re-branded" Curling Canada, Northern Ontario in the Tournament of Hearts, and Team Canada in the Brier, have not made any appreciable difference to our fortunes on the world stage. So now what?

In my view, the biggest problem facing Canadian curling today is the fact that nobody has even begun to address the biggest problem facing Canadian curling today.

As I'm sure you know: all sports require physical skill and technical knowledge, but the ratio of skill to knowledge varies from sport to sport. Compared to most other sports, curling is primarily a game of knowledge. Like pool, darts, or golf, it is possible to accumulate enough knowledge to outweigh the inevitable wear and tear on the body, so curlers tend to get good, and stay good, later in life than players of most other sports. It's not like tennis, or gymnastics, or figure skating, where a 15-year-old can take the world by storm, and a 30-year-old competing at the elite level is a rarity.

There was a time when the most crucial technical knowledge about curling was the hard-earned and private property of the world's best curlers -- and they were Canadian. If you wanted to learn what they knew, you had to be good enough, and lucky enough, to play with them. Or you had to play against them long enough and smart enough to learn by watching them. Or else you had to earn their trust to the extent that they would share their knowledge with you. There was no other way.

We're talking about insider knowledge, and we're talking about a very small pool of insiders. The "average" Canadian champion was so far advanced, compared to the "average" European champion, at the technical level of the game, that it was almost reasonable to expect the Canadians to beat everybody else, always and everywhere, often in eight ends or less. But that is no longer the case. If Canada really wants to win gold -- all the time, or even most of the time -- Canadians need to address the problem from the standpoint of technical knowledge.

In other words, instead of re-structuring our national championships, or funding any number of elite teams to curl and travel and curl and train and nothing else, this is what we need to do:

~~~~~

A Four-Point Program

1. Ban foreign teams from playing in Canadian cash spiels. This is where they've been learning to play the game as well as we do -- and it's the only place where anyone can learn this. Why should foreign teams be given easy access to our knowledge? Are there not plenty of Canadian teams eager to play in big-money events?

2. Prohibit Canadian coaches from working in foreign countries or with foreign teams. For decades, Canadians such as Ray Turnbull, Ed Lukowich, Marcel Rocque, and Al Moore have been applauded for their efforts abroad -- considered ambassadors for the sport of curling, and for Canada -- while giving (or selling) aid and comfort, and treasure chests of knowledge, to the enemy!

3. Block foreign access to TSN, Sportsnet, curling videos on YouTube, Curling Zone, and all other Canadian sources of curling knowledge. Prohibit the sale or possession outside Canada of all books, videos, and other instructional material written or produced by Canadians.

4. Make these changes retroactive for the past 60 years. Give the world "Ken Watson on Curling" and let them figure the rest out for themselves.

~~~~~

Easier said than done? Granted. My four-point program would be difficult to implement. But the only alternative to our annual heartbreak is to eradicate the notion that Canadians should ALWAYS win gold at the world level.

This notion is entirely false, not supported by any credible evidence, and contradicted by mountains of easily observable facts. Yet it is still tightly-held throughout Canadian curling, and expressed in many ways -- some of them very nasty -- from the people who run Curling Canada, through the Canadian sporting press, down to the lowliest curlers in the C leagues of the smallest clubs in the country (many of whom seem to believe that, given the chance, they could do better on the world stage than any number of Canadian champions).

Like all tightly-held false beliefs, ridding ourselves of this one would be impossible. Therefore I recommend the four-point program outlined above.

~~~~~

Of course I'm kidding.

Isn't it ironic that the people who are most anxious to see Canadians win gold are, in large part, the very same people who have been most instrumental in the world-wide spread of Canadian curling knowledge?

Who set up the coaching certification programs? Who published the technical manuals? Who set up the wall-to-wall national television coverage? Who got curling into the Olympics?

Maybe I'm not kidding after all.

The beans are spilled. Nobody can put them back in the bag.

Vital secrets, once the private property of a handful of Canadians, are now public knowledge. The world will never be the same again.

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04-06-15 02:00AM
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doubletakeout
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The cat's out of the bag, and frankly, I'm so glad for it.

Look, it's a lot of fun watching Canadian curling teams win tournaments. Thankfully, we have a lot of great teams that win a lot of tournaments.

The World Championship is a particularly tough one for Canadian teams to win - first, Canada has by far the most competitive national championship to win. We're asking our athletes to go through the grinding process of the Brier or STOH, ride the emotional high of winning the coveted prize, and then try to replicate the whole process two weeks later - sometimes in a very unfamiliar environment.

Contrast that to teams like Edin, like Ulsrud, who know as soon as the season starts that there is a 99% chance they will be participating in the World Championship that season. They can plan their seasons to peak in time for the marquee event on the schedule.

This isn't whining or complaining, it's just a statement of facts. Canadian teams have performed very well at the World Championships, but you can't expect them to win everything. We can expect our teams to give it their best shot, and it's okay to be disappointed in them when they don't bring their A game. But let's acknowledge how difficult it is to achieve that A game with so little time since the national championship.

Having such a competitive international field in both men's and women's curling gives our sport a lot of legitimacy - and therefore we get the ultimate prize of inclusion in the Olympic games. Olympic participation is the biggest spotlight, the biggest platform, the biggest showcase for curling internationally. Many here will complain that the Olympics have changed curling forever as though that were a bad thing.

Is your desire to see Canada win so strong that you would sacrifice all the developments in the sport? Shall we return to the days of the Scotch Cup? Look at what's happening in other sports - women's hockey is still controversial as far as Olympic participation goes since two countries are so unbelievably dominant compared to the rest of the field.

Canada is so competitive at international competitions because Canadian teams have the easiest access to the broadest base of strong competition throughout the season. The Worlds has become one of the toughest events to win - and it's even more difficult for a Canadian team (and arguably, now, a Swiss women's team) to pull off. If our teams were stinking out the joint, there'd be reason for concern. Hitting the podium and having legitimate chances at the gold? That's situation normal for Canada, as it always has been, and we're keeping up with the tough international fields.

I'm proud of what the Jones and Simmons teams accomplished this year. Have we seen both teams play better than they achieved in the playoffs? Yes we have. That's sports. Remember the "19-0" Patriots shirts? Kentucky's until-now-undefeated run in the NCAA final four? It happens.

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04-06-15 04:15AM
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CaptMorgan
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So your solution is to make the rest of the world lousier?

Not try to make Canadian teams better?

Bring the curling talent down a few notches.

I bet you are not in favour of the relegation round for the worst of the Canadian teams.

What I saw was Simmons finishing the RR with1 loss. He has one bad game against SWE and its over. I would say the team psychologist is over-paid and not doing the job.

Last edited by CaptMorgan on 04-06-15 at 05:21AM

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04-06-15 05:44AM
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Ventry
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Feb 2015
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quote:
Originally posted by doubletakeout
The cat's out of the bag, and frankly, I'm so glad for it.

Look, it's a lot of fun watching Canadian curling teams win tournaments. Thankfully, we have a lot of great teams that win a lot of tournaments.

The World Championship is a particularly tough one for Canadian teams to win - first, Canada has by far the most competitive national championship to win. We're asking our athletes to go through the grinding process of the Brier or STOH, ride the emotional high of winning the coveted prize, and then try to replicate the whole process two weeks later - sometimes in a very unfamiliar environment.

Contrast that to teams like Edin, like Ulsrud, who know as soon as the season starts that there is a 99% chance they will be participating in the World Championship that season. They can plan their seasons to peak in time for the marquee event on the schedule.

This isn't whining or complaining, it's just a statement of facts. Canadian teams have performed very well at the World Championships, but you can't expect them to win everything. We can expect our teams to give it their best shot, and it's okay to be disappointed in them when they don't bring their A game. But let's acknowledge how difficult it is to achieve that A game with so little time since the national championship.

Having such a competitive international field in both men's and women's curling gives our sport a lot of legitimacy - and therefore we get the ultimate prize of inclusion in the Olympic games. Olympic participation is the biggest spotlight, the biggest platform, the biggest showcase for curling internationally. Many here will complain that the Olympics have changed curling forever as though that were a bad thing.

Is your desire to see Canada win so strong that you would sacrifice all the developments in the sport? Shall we return to the days of the Scotch Cup? Look at what's happening in other sports - women's hockey is still controversial as far as Olympic participation goes since two countries are so unbelievably dominant compared to the rest of the field.

Canada is so competitive at international competitions because Canadian teams have the easiest access to the broadest base of strong competition throughout the season. The Worlds has become one of the toughest events to win - and it's even more difficult for a Canadian team (and arguably, now, a Swiss women's team) to pull off. If our teams were stinking out the joint, there'd be reason for concern. Hitting the podium and having legitimate chances at the gold? That's situation normal for Canada, as it always has been, and we're keeping up with the tough international fields.

I'm proud of what the Jones and Simmons teams accomplished this year. Have we seen both teams play better than they achieved in the playoffs? Yes we have. That's sports. Remember the "19-0" Patriots shirts? Kentucky's until-now-undefeated run in the NCAA final four? It happens.



Good post. I personally could care less about who wins at the worlds. Usually hope for the Scots truth be told. If anyone is worried about Canada's dominance, look no further than Olympic performances, which has become the real prize of international competition.

I would rather see Canada be the leader in participation in the sport, in any sport for that matter, than reaching the podium. The lack of gold at the worlds as being relevant to changing the Brier format is a complete red herring IMO.

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04-06-15 07:55AM
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Ventry
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Here's an idea:

Identify Canada's World Championship rep at the Brier the year before. This give them a full year to get ready and not have to deal with the emotional rollercoaster of the getting to and winning the Brier. They would play in the Brier preceding the World's as Team Canada to keep up their game, and if they win, would then be the rep at the Worlds the next year.

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04-06-15 08:14AM
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misty1
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how about this: nothing

the worlds are far better as a competitive event than with one team dominating them.

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04-06-15 09:51AM
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Island Roger
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Mar 2014
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quote:
Originally posted by Ventry
Here's an idea:

Identify Canada's World Championship rep at the Brier the year before. This give them a full year to get ready and not have to deal with the emotional rollercoaster of the getting to and winning the Brier. They would play in the Brier preceding the World's as Team Canada to keep up their game, and if they win, would then be the rep at the Worlds the next year.



Teams cant stay together long enough to make that one work .... lol.

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04-06-15 12:08PM
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watcher2
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The answer is simple. Support our players financially the way the major world countries support theirs.

Email Sports Canada opposing the financial support of organizations like CCA and CAC, instead support the actual teams.

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04-06-15 01:37PM
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nelsosi
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I didn't realize there was a problem with elite Canadian curling.

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04-06-15 03:39PM
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Guest
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quote:
Originally posted by Manitoba Legend
There is when they succumb to guys who don't regularly play the Grand Slam circuit!


These terse, moderate postings concern me. Who are you, and where is the real ML?

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04-06-15 03:54PM
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misty1
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the only people who think that there is any problem with canadian curling are the people who think that canada has to get gold every time they go to worlds

there are problems but in the sense of what we are talking about here there is none

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04-06-15 04:00PM
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HotRocks
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Question So.....is it poor scheduling?

I totally disagree with the concept of determining a Canadian rep a full year before the World event.
This was the OLD style and causes endless problems.. players change, Life events like injuries, pregnancies , job changes etc etc..

Nobody should expect Canada to always win at worlds..thats not fair or good for international curling.

There does need to be a solid finish to the worlds however
This is called peaking at the ultimate GOAL of the season.
Every 4 years the Olympics are that goal..for one team and the worlds for the other team competing

Without being too harsh...the semi-final collapse of Men's Team Canada
this past weekend was beyond belief..
Please dont say that losing the 1-2 Page caused this...
Does Team Canada even have a Sports Psychologist?
..since they seem to be able to afford Earl Morris' ticket
to Halifax when he basically has/had zero to do with the Team during the year or worlds..

Canada's " System" is still flawed and disorganized...

No..its not all about winning is everything...its about the fact that Canada's Teams need to FINISH a world event ..and especially when they breeze thru the RR...

.

Last edited by HotRocks on 04-06-15 at 04:03PM

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04-06-15 04:11PM
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Re: How To Restore Canadian Dominance To World Curling

quote:
Originally posted by Par
A Four-Point Program

1. Ban foreign teams from playing in Canadian cash spiels. This is where they've been learning to play the game as well as we do -- and it's the only place where anyone can learn this. Why should foreign teams be given easy access to our knowledge? produced by Canadians.



So why isnt Canada staying AHEAD of the Euros and Other Teams then?
Where is Canada's focus on up and coming Youth Curlers like Oskar Erikson ( Sweden) who is already a Phenom at 23 years old?




.

Last edited by HotRocks on 04-06-15 at 04:24PM

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04-06-15 05:58PM
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coltond
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The Worlds were honestly pretty boring when Canada dominated all the time. You can't have a legitimate sport if one country is just going to walk through everybody at the worlds, where's the entertainment? Where's the competition? Honestly I feel like the worlds has played second fiddle to the Slams and Brier for a long time because for a long time we knew half of the Canadian teams in those events could go on and just walk through everyone at the worlds. It's not the case anymore, and that's good. Because of this, the worlds becomes a lot more legitimate and watchable because anything could happen (AKA Finland making playoffs). Don't get me wrong, I too was a little upset about how Canada performed in playoffs, but I think they just looked a little flat in the Sweden game. In the end the competition level at the worlds is rising, there's no more walk through games (hell Italy was giving everyone good games) and it's just all round good for the development of our sport.

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04-06-15 06:44PM
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Shiver
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Can't win em all...

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04-06-15 06:57PM
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quote:
Originally posted by coltond
The Worlds were honestly pretty boring when Canada dominated all the time. You can't have a legitimate sport if one country is just going to walk through everybody at the worlds, where's the entertainment? Where's the competition? Honestly I feel like the worlds has played second fiddle to the Slams and Brier for a long time because for a long time we knew half of the Canadian teams in those events could go on and just walk through everyone at the worlds. It's not the case anymore, and that's good. Because of this, the worlds becomes a lot more legitimate and watchable because anything could happen (AKA Finland making playoffs). Don't get me wrong, I too was a little upset about how Canada performed in playoffs, but I think they just looked a little flat in the Sweden game. In the end the competition level at the worlds is rising, there's no more walk through games (hell Italy was giving everyone good games) and it's just all round good for the development of our sport.


Agreed, it's more special when you win if there are several countries winning over recent years. Canada outplayed Norway in the 1-2 game but missed the wrong shots. I believe Sweden's level of play was extremely good at times which meant their oppositions margin of error was slimmer then normal.

Many countries top teams including Canada are rebuilding or tweaking their Olympic hopefuls this year. There were no G. Howard or K. Martin type teams that had numerous years under their belt, played the circuit a ton, and were in their best form all season. Except McKewan who failed to get through Manitoba,
but beat Edin in a recent final and very much looked to be the better team on that day.

Even Edin had a young line up, which likely was partially responsible for their weak RR start. The big surprise really was his third really stepped up his game and was steller the rest of the event. That in itself means Sweden will be in the picture every year for the next 3 years minimum. They might even get better when the front end logs more time at big events.

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04-06-15 08:10PM
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5thstone
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quote:
Originally posted by watcher2
The answer is simple. Support our players financially the way the major world countries support theirs.

Email Sports Canada opposing the financial support of organizations like CCA and CAC, instead support the actual teams.



There's no appetite from the taxpayer to have full time curlers in Canada. It just not going happened.

Having said that, let's face a few facts. Sticking to the Mens Curling:

Most of the Worlds team this especially Ewan MacDonald or even David Murdoch would be hard pressed to get to the quarter finals in the Safeway Select in Manitoba. Those guys get beat by the part time touring teams fairly regularly.

I'm not even sure if Mike McEwen or Brad Jacobs could of beat Edin to be really truthful about. Edin is in the zone.

I guess one can argue that we should of got a new Team Canada after Koe and that former team split last year but still. That team that was in Halifax had too many 'skips', John Morris being the most guilty party. Pat Simmons is a great skip and everything but he can't be Superman everyday. It will be interesting what they will be doing next year? That combination doesn't work well as even the Americans almost beat us.

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04-06-15 10:36PM
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Jimbobogie
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I love hearing folks pushing the panic button because Canada's lost a couple of times. I suppose we'll now have to give each Canadian rink on the pro tour enough government money so that they can become full-time, year-round curlers, right? Question-what happens when these "full-time, fully-funded" curlers reach the age at which they can't be competitive anymore? Do they go on a permanent government pension? They'll have to since they'll have no other employable skills.

Of course, we might as well simply scrap the World Championships, since we know that nobody can beat our full-time professionals. With no World Championship, we won't have to be bothered with stupid things like Olympic Curling either.

Par, I appreciate that you were kidding (and well-written), but we both know that there are many, many Canadian curling folks out there who agree with your original statement 100%!

Folks, I said it in another post-let's grow up and face the fact that, when it comes to curling Canada will always have a bulls-eye (as well as a Maple Leaf) on it's back. Enjoy the honour and if some guys in yellow shirts or crazy pants sometimes win, fantastic! Frankly, for the game to reach the next level, we're going to have to see several (I said "several") potential world champion rinks emerging from...wait for it...the United states of America.

__________________
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Last edited by Jimbobogie on 04-06-15 at 10:42PM

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04-07-15 10:24AM
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No "Target" on Canada's Back..anymore

There are NO panic buttons or sour grapes about Canada getting a Bronze at the worlds
A good Finland Team emerged from nowhere and a strong upcoming Young SwedishTeam is the world champion...

Team USA had some very strong games and from what Ive read that country is working to get back to being a better curling competitor again..

What was almost "unacceptable".. was that DEAD Team Canada that didnt show up for the Semi-Final.
Losing is part of any sport but at least show your best skills at that level ... to a very very disappointed Canadian Audience.. what "killed' Pat Simmons usual "up" attitude.. I can guess.....

I understand that curlers are tight-lipped about each other and some of the harsher "truths" behind the scenes.. but something happened to the Team Chemistry after the 1-2 loss and I hope that team deals with it..
Use that second that was brought in from GP if Carter Leaves.. and get a new Third who knows how to support his skip not compete with him ad nauseum...

and as an added point..if the Slams are such superior curling ( yes they are) why cant Mike McEwen ever get out of Manitoba for the Briers and worlds..??

Canada is slipping..in spite of the 2014 Olys...

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04-07-15 11:31AM
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nelsosi
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Deep breath everyone.
If Pat doesn't roll out with his first rock in 10 during the 1/2 game, they win that game and are playing for gold. Let's not overreact here.

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04-07-15 11:58AM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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quote:
Originally posted by watcher2
The answer is simple. Support our players financially the way the major world countries support theirs.

Email Sports Canada opposing the financial support of organizations like CCA and CAC, instead support the actual teams.



Sigh, if it was only that easy. Really, pick 5 teams, mens and ladies and have at it. You really want to kill competitive curling in this country, pick 50 athletes and tell the others keep trying. Put the teams together based on all stars and watch them gel, kind of like Team Canada this year, is that really waht we want as a country?...............By the way, glad that Peja Lindhom is doing all that for Sweden out of the goodness of his heart, LOL.

As for Canada slipping look back in time between 1972 and 1980, we were playing half the teams who were knee slidders and couldn't win the worlds, now THAT was a time to panic.

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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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The only thing they could do is make ice readily available for the kids and in that respect, both the OCA and CCA have failed miserably. The kids that want it will make it happen; they will juggle school and find the best coaching available.

I think the OCA should be heading an iniaitve towards building a new facility--through lobbying the minister of sport (federal), the premier (provincial) and industry fundraising. Somewhere in the Milton area as that could accomodate all of the GTA kids while also being reasonably close for the 705 and 519 kids.

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Hitting Paint

 

Registered: Sep 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 116

quote:
Originally posted by Ventry
Here's an idea:

Identify Canada's World Championship rep at the Brier the year before. This give them a full year to get ready and not have to deal with the emotional rollercoaster of the getting to and winning the Brier. They would play in the Brier preceding the World's as Team Canada to keep up their game, and if they win, would then be the rep at the Worlds the next year.



There really is something to this idea. The Europeans are dedicated teams that have all year to prep while being fully funded. Our players are still trying to make ends meet and get out to play as much as possible to be able to earn the money to keep on going. We just have too many darn good players out there and all have the right to rep our country. No easy solution but this is the closest. But I live in a dream world.

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Hitting Paint

 

Registered: Sep 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 116

Re: So.....is it poor scheduling?

quote:
Originally posted by HotRocks
I totally disagree with the concept of determining a Canadian rep a full year before the World event.
This was the OLD style and causes endless problems.. players change, Life events like injuries, pregnancies , job changes etc etc..

Nobody should expect Canada to always win at worlds..thats not fair or good for international curling.

There does need to be a solid finish to the worlds however
This is called peaking at the ultimate GOAL of the season.
Every 4 years the Olympics are that goal..for one team and the worlds for the other team competing

Without being too harsh...the semi-final collapse of Men's Team Canada
this past weekend was beyond belief..
Please dont say that losing the 1-2 Page caused this...
Does Team Canada even have a Sports Psychologist?
..since they seem to be able to afford Earl Morris' ticket
to Halifax when he basically has/had zero to do with the Team during the year or worlds..

Canada's " System" is still flawed and disorganized...

No..its not all about winning is everything...its about the fact that Canada's Teams need to FINISH a world event ..and especially when they breeze thru the RR...

.



I can't see the hockey and football fanatic fans saying this about those sports. "It's not all about winning is everything"? Oh yes it is. That is where the money and prestige lies. What is the point of working so hard if you are not aiming to be the best and reap its rewards? Our players are at a distinct disadvantage when they are trying to juggle regular jobs and curling when Edin et al or Eve et al spend all year training. Yes we have some full time curlers. But not all.

I do enjoy watching those world teams tho!

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CZ Founder

 

Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 4002

This is why the evolution of the Brier and Scotties has to happen for the longterm success of Canada's chances at the Worlds.

We host our National Championships and our Oskar Erikssons are not allowed to play. In other countries, Mike McEwen, Brendan Bottcher, John Epping would have been playing under those conditions when they were on their way up.

Currently the Brier and Scotties DOES select the best team on any given season. But for these younger, up and coming teams who deserve to be there, but can't because of numbers, it limits their development opportunities to be even better.

When these teams get to the Brier, they will be good enough to win it, but instead of having experience, they will be rookies in that atmosphere and a similar pressure of the World Championships.

THIS is the struggle Curling Canada faces when trying to balance High Performance objectives at the Nationals while still ensuring the history and tradition of what those events are.

Relegation is the first change of many coming up the pipeline for the Brier and Scotties.

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