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04-06-13 09:51PM
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ngm
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quote:
Originally posted by peteski
The problem for the Scottish team is that all five players are great, so no matter what, a great player is going to have to sit. However, this is a problem they created. That's why no one tries to have a five man team. It just doesn't work long term.


Who has ever tried it long term?

There is no reason why it couldn't work in principle.

All the reasons I've heard against it have been equivalent to "sounds new don't like"

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04-06-13 10:04PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ngm


Who has ever tried it long term?

There is no reason why it couldn't work in principle.

All the reasons I've heard against it have been equivalent to "sounds new don't like"



The Russian women tried it. Didn't work too well for them either. They've basically narrowed it down to a regular four now and are better for it.

Hey, maybe it could work, but it seems bad for team chemistry to me. One person is always going to be pissed he's sitting. Besides, as great as Murdoch is, Brewster's team was pretty damn good the last two years.

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04-06-13 10:27PM
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Shawzy
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quote:
Originally posted by ngm


Who has ever tried it long term?

There is no reason why it couldn't work in principle.

All the reasons I've heard against it have been equivalent to "sounds new don't like"



I currently play vice on a 5-man team and it just doesn't work. Usually our 5th man plays vice or skip when our regular skip is gone and it's absolute hell trying to adjust what ice to give and what shots to play when you have a different player coming out of the hack each time. Good teams are good because they know each others' games and deliveries inside out and are consistent in doing so, which you're not going to get on a 5-man team.

In terms of personalities and what-not it's fine. We're not the most competitive team (we still do decently well though), so there's no butting of heads in terms of trying to put the best team on the ice. Also, our 5th man is semi-retired anyway and doesn't want to curl every week. The top teams are going to be filled with top-level players who want to play all the time and win. What works for our club team wouldn't work for the pros.

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04-06-13 10:50PM
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The only team that rotation seemed to work out well for was andy kapp. He would regularly rotate the front end of his team and it didnt seem to bother them to much, in fact he got some good results with it.

I suppose though the reason there would be that he only rotated the front end and the back end stayed consistant.

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04-06-13 11:08PM
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Rotation

I coached a 5 player team for 5 to 6 years (5 years with all 5, a 6th year after the older two went off to university) and we used a rotation, but it was very different from the "rotation" used by Russian women and Scottish men.

1) The rotation only involved front end positions such that each of the three front end players played 2 out of 3 games.

2) It was a fixed rotation, not based on performance - each front end player sat out 1 of 3 games when it was their turn and they knew days and weeks ahead which games they would be sitting out.

3) The team bought into the idea, and results, observation, and statistics all showed that each of the 3 "incarnations" was pretty much equal to the next.

4) A previous 5 player team where the 5th player sat out all the time and the same 4 players played all the time demonstrated that when the 5th player finally got to play, he didn't play up to his potential for several games, until he got used to throwing stones in competition again, and results suffered because of it.

These were the factors of using a rotation, and it was a rotation system that worked for that team, as it generally met or surpassed its goals each year, reaching the provincial level in 4 of 5 years with the original 5 players.

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04-07-13 01:40AM
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They are guaranteed a silver. I am already happy. I think they are fully capable of beating the great Edin team. Their RR game was a good one, and Canada played well but they missed a few crucial shots at the absolute worst times. If they play that well but without those misses, or be more opportune when they have those mistakes so they arent as costly, they can win for sure.

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04-07-13 07:49AM
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right on fearless leader....

quote:
Originally posted by Manitoba Legend
Brewster looks royally pissed. I'm talking Andrea Schopp level pissed.

What the hay do they do in Scotland. A man develops a nice team, finishes second at two world championships and suddenly a quality skip who's team has grown old, gotten injured, grown disinterested is imported to skip the championship Scottish team and Tommy Brewster is on the outside looking in.

Man is Fry curling up a storm tonite. But its only half the game. However, Fry is just doing what the euros did to him in the round-robin - ie. CIRCUS SHOTS.

yes upon seeing the game last night, they showed a shot of Brewster sitting in the stands discussing curling with his coach... he certainly looked 'miffed" to me!

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04-07-13 08:30AM
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May be a good day

Canada against Sweden for the world curling championship.

Canada one win away from qualifying for the final four in the Davis Cup, with Raonic leading off.

Will be an interesting day, and could be a good day for Canada.

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04-07-13 08:43AM
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Re: May be a good day

quote:
Originally posted by murphyj87
Canada against Sweden for the world curling championship.

Canada one win away from qualifying for the final four in the Davis Cup, with Raonic leading off.

Will be an interesting day, and could be a good day for Canada.

being a east coaster like yourself we had to endure some late late evenings watching games on television but they were worth it right? WE COULD BE ON THE BRINK OF GREATNESS AFTER THIS EVENING?... stay tuned everything is fine here on the island ....

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04-07-13 09:50AM
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gold medal game

I am going to be there and sitting on the edge of my seat. Team Canada has done well considering their youth, and inexperience on this level internationally. They will be facing a team of professional curlers and over this season, they have powered through them. Thursday night was a tough loss. Seeing them yesterday, refreshed and ready to face what ever was thrown their way was encouraging. Their energy lit up the arena. Many on this forum seem to be fair weather fans, cheering them on when they are up and trashing them when they are down. No matter what your personal thoughts are about this team, everyone has to acknowledge win or lose, these boys have given it their ALL. Go TEAM CANADA!!!

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04-07-13 09:55AM
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Alas, I missed the curling due to being engrossed in the Davis Cup tie - Canada finally won a thriller of a fifth set against Italy, 15-13.

But I did check the curling at end changes and I saw more and more worried looks on David Murdoch's face - which was encouraging.

Team Jacobs has been rightly lauded for coming from behind at the Brier to beat the heavyweights to win all the marbles. He is on the verge of doing the same today which could well rank as the accomplishment of the year for a Canadian sports team.

...unless (yuck, yuck) the Toronto media are finally right and this is the year for the Leafs to win the Stanley Cup.

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04-07-13 10:23AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Manitoba Legend
Brewster looks royally pissed. I'm talking Andrea Schopp level pissed.


If Brewster isn't royally pissed, he sure ought to be. First he had Murdoch imported onto his team that won back-to-back world silvers (but at least he stayed on as skip), then he gets bumped down to third on the eve of the worlds, then he gets benched in the semis? I'm sure that publicly he'll toe the company line, but privately I can only imagine how incensed he is at everything that has transpired.


quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered


Just because he plays "skip" doesn't mean he has to be a dictator. You see it as questioning, but as curlers we consider it a conversation. Ultimately Brad plays the shot he most agrees with, so don't make him out to be a pushover, and don't make the other guys out as being insubordinate.



There is difference between team members presenting options as opposed to trying to impose their will. At the Brier, I saw a very decisive Jacobs who heard the options and then said "this is what we're playing". This week, I've seen Fry and, at times, EJ question shot after shot and then keep going at Jacobs when they don't get the response they want. It's not just me that sees this - other posters here are commenting on it, TSN is commenting on it, the fans in the arena are noticing it (see the cheering once the shot is finally called) and it seems like the team itself notices it internally (I heard EJ tell Brad "stick with your call" once yesterday, and either EJ or Ryan say to the other two "let him make the call" once yesterday). It's the same type of thing we often saw happen when he was with Gushue.

Having said all that, Ryan's play has been absolutely superb. He played as well as I think I've ever seen him play in the 3v4 and semi yesterday.

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04-07-13 10:40AM
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Making the finals also pushes them ahead of Epping for the autoberth to the trials. 35 for 2nd and 45 for 1st, less the 15 they drop for their current lowest finish.
May come down to Epping having to win players again.

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04-07-13 10:46AM
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The Scotties coaches are idiots. The team was better before washed up old Murdoch came on it. Treating poor Brewster the way they have is disgraceful. All those idiots should be fired and put out of employment (just as Murdoch should be put into retirement).

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04-07-13 11:00AM
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quote:
Originally posted by decade
Making the finals also pushes them ahead of Epping for the autoberth to the trials. 35 for 2nd and 45 for 1st, less the 15 they drop for their current lowest finish.
May come down to Epping having to win players again.


Looks like you're right - they will gain a net of 30 points by winning today which will put them about 11 pts ahead of Epping on the 2 year standings.

Epping's low score this year is only 5 though, so if he finishes ahead of Jacobs at the Players he may gain enough 'net' points to pass him again. Not sure that he actually has to win it, as long as he does reasonably well and finishes ahead of Jacobs. Will definitely add some extra intrigue to the Players.

If Jacobs loses today, he will be 1 point ahead of Epping (I think), which really makes the Players interesting for them.

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04-07-13 11:03AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Manitoba Legend


Brewster played the ultimate team boy. But the sad fact is Scottish curling is now in disarray. They thought they had the formula when their princess tormented all comers at the world womens but this is different.

However, I wouldn't quite call Murdoch washed up. Actually, I think he's marginally (tiny bit) better than Tom as a shot-smith. But he royally messed up team chemistry, knowledge of other men's traits, etc. Why couldn't he stay with his own gang of warlords, ie. Ewan McGregor and the gang, rather than disturb the fine Brewster team.

Seems much of Brewsters support is coming from Canada where fair play is our marker.



Didn't the Scots do some crazy lineup shuffle at the Women's Worlds a several years ago (pre-Muirhead)? I can't recall the details, but I seem to remember them importing a player mid-tournament or something.

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04-07-13 11:05AM
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Re: gold medal game

quote:
Originally posted by rocking chair curler
I am going to be there and sitting on the edge of my seat. Team Canada has done well considering their youth, and inexperience on this level internationally. They will be facing a team of professional curlers and over this season, they have powered through them. Thursday night was a tough loss. Seeing them yesterday, refreshed and ready to face what ever was thrown their way was encouraging. Their energy lit up the arena. Many on this forum seem to be fair weather fans, cheering them on when they are up and trashing them when they are down. No matter what your personal thoughts are about this team, everyone has to acknowledge win or lose, these boys have given it their ALL. Go TEAM CANADA!!!


Like

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04-07-13 11:41AM
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One thing that has really impressed me about the Jacobs team this week - in addition to their tenacity - is their total class when it comes to accepting a loss. It sooooo refreshing to see a team actually hold themselves accountable for a loss rather than certain other teams whining and complaining about the rocks and/or the ice. Finally a team has the balls to say, hey, yeah, we curled poorly instead of blaming anything but themselves.

Good luck today, boys. Regardless of tonight's outcome, you have represented Canada extremely well.

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04-07-13 12:53PM
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quote:
Originally posted by nelsosi


Didn't the Scots do some crazy lineup shuffle at the Women's Worlds a several years ago (pre-Muirhead)? I can't recall the details, but I seem to remember them importing a player mid-tournament or something.



What transpired during the women's worlds in Vernon was the unqualified removal of the skip by a coach who-as rightly ruled by a Scottish court-then went on to libel and slander the player in question in the media.

This skip then took a heroic stand against this coach, her former team, her club and the Scottish curling association. It took several years but in the end she was proven to be in the right.

Did any of those guilty parties ever issue a public apology? Not to my knowledge.

Instead, in an unbelievable act that is stupefying, this same individual was hired to run the USCA competitive program. And there are constant hints that he is trying to install the same selection process south of the border.

Take any one of these world teams that are hand picked or juggle line ups and put them in any province. They would all be hard pressed to win and none would finish top five at a Brier. 3

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04-07-13 01:25PM
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Thumbs up

quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered
One thing that has really impressed me about the Jacobs team this week - in addition to their tenacity - is their total class when it comes to accepting a loss. It sooooo refreshing to see a team actually hold themselves accountable for a loss rather than certain other teams whining and complaining about the rocks and/or the ice. Finally a team has the balls to say, hey, yeah, we curled poorly instead of blaming anything but themselves.

Good luck today, boys. Regardless of tonight's outcome, you have represented Canada extremely well.



here here!!

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04-07-13 01:43PM
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Interesting tweet from Mike Harris
Mike Harris ‏@mikeharriscurls
Ok. W respect to D Murdoch when will the Scots stop f-ing w team chemistry. It's Toms team. Euros were brutal too #travesty #noclue #curling end tweet

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04-07-13 02:16PM
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misty1
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quote:
Originally posted by decade
Interesting tweet from Mike Harris
Mike Harris ‏@mikeharriscurls
Ok. W respect to D Murdoch when will the Scots stop f-ing w team chemistry. It's Toms team. Euros were brutal too #travesty #noclue #curling end tweet



well I agree with him 1000%. They brought murdoch into this team and totally ****ed things up. This team could conceivably have its worst worlds in 3 years with david.

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04-07-13 02:31PM
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quote:
Originally posted by misty1


well I agree with him 1000%. They brought murdoch into this team and totally ****ed things up. This team could conceivably have its worst worlds in 3 years with david.



Still, a lot better than Warwick Smith in 2007 who finished 4-7, perhaps the most pitiable performance by the Scots in a generation.

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04-07-13 02:50PM
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quote:
Originally posted by greenroad


Still, a lot better than Warwick Smith in 2007 who finished 4-7, perhaps the most pitiable performance by the Scots in a generation.



I mean, its obviously still a very good performance. Any time you can play for a medal you have to be proud. However in terms of what this team has done over the years they have to be disappointed.

Hopefully this open their eyes and they let Tom and his team curl without david in socchi

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04-07-13 03:48PM
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Re: gold medal game

quote:
Originally posted by rocking chair curler
I am going to be there and sitting on the edge of my seat. Team Canada has done well considering their youth, and inexperience on this level internationally. They will be facing a team of professional curlers and over this season, they have powered through them. Thursday night was a tough loss. Seeing them yesterday, refreshed and ready to face what ever was thrown their way was encouraging. Their energy lit up the arena. Many on this forum seem to be fair weather fans, cheering them on when they are up and trashing them when they are down. No matter what your personal thoughts are about this team, everyone has to acknowledge win or lose, these boys have given it their ALL. Go TEAM CANADA!!!


I picked them to win pre-event with Scotland and Sweden being their main competition. This forum always has some "fair weather" fans, with opinions riding a wave day by day to the extremes sometimes. The US posters on this site also skew the discussions; given that the US rarely even wins a medal at this event its hard to take the US program all that seriously.

I lost some confidance in Scotland when I saw them on the ice and heard about their team dynamics. I was actually surprised they came so close to winning this thing given those factors.

Edin knows how to keep games close but I pick Jacobs to win.

Last edited by Nine Ender on 04-07-13 at 04:21PM

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