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M: NWTCA Curling Club Championships
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01-22-15 08:55AM
AlanMacNeill is offline Click Here to See the Profile for AlanMacNeill Click here to Send AlanMacNeill a Private Message Find more posts by AlanMacNeill Add AlanMacNeill to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
AlanMacNeill
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So we're presented with a fork in the road...

US Curling can continue to rest it's hopes on NBC deciding to televise games somewhere on it's vast network of stations...which they are not wont to do...hell...we can't even get a live draw on NBCSN, the network that provides TWELVE hours a day of cycling during the Tour de France (4 live even).

If that alone doesn't show where we're seen in NBC's eyes, you're blind...

Alternatively, we can embrace the web and self-broadcasting options. Devices like the Roku, Amazon TV, Tivo's webcast features, etc, are allowing for Net Broadcast without having to break down the Network Doors. That way lies the future.

TESN is, can, and should continue to be, our leaders in this effort. Someone at the USCA should be getting ESPN3 on the phone and asking "Hey, you've got Canadian curling...we have Americans curling...what do we need to do to make this go?"

Yeah, TESN might need to up some of the technical details of their game a bit and become more professional....but only a bit, and with support, it can happen.

Or, we can continue to be happy with excerpted coverage of an event played 6 weeks ago...

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01-22-15 09:29AM
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tuck
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I occasionally pull off a good sentence, but I write poorly. I need to complete my thoughts without droning on.

I do have, rambling in the back of my pathetic brain, a still-unformed dissertation on the importance of TESN and web coverage. "Growth" in this case has nothing to do with numbers. The type of growth that I'm too-vaguely referencing is more along the lines of improvement.

It comes from my curling growth personally. I'm lucky to be close enough to the border that we picked up Canadian TV channels in my youth. As I began to get better, I learned a lot from watching good teams play. So desperate were we for knowledge, lots of the Langdon competitive curlers would tape the games (remember VCR?) and we'd pass them around.

Sorry for my lack of clarity. Different growth.

I've seen some of the explosion in numbers and some of it concerns me. Watching some leagues where rocks (plural) hit the dividing boards ain't curling. These curlers will not stick with the game. Watching inexperienced skips struggle without a clue is not good for the game. Those skips will never go on the road to bonspiels. Trust me: Getting new curlers on the road to a spiel is the key to retaining members and making them passionate.

So seeing "how it should be done" is key in my mind. Seeing Staveteig's ice and getting local club presidents to know his name is important. Listening to guys like Cheatley, Kakela, Murray and (on my good days) myself can slowly lead new skips towards thinking like a skip.

Different type of growth. The growth I was afforded thanks to Canuck TV. I think it is absolutely key. I am old in curling terms. I've seen the past. We simply CANNOT takes this numbers explosion and piss it down our legs. We simply cannot just rest upon our new numbers. If we do, these new numbers will evaporate and we'll return to days of shrinking numbers. Those days were horrid. We cannot build new dedicated facilities and then watch them slowly decay.

I think the webstream is very important. I also think that we've only scratched the surface of what it can become.

Sincerely,
Ben Tucker

PS To defend the indefensible: JH posted (in fairly snarky terms) what I was thinking. I have no problem with those who did not contribute watching Nationals. I do, however, have a problem with those who publicly trashed the fund raising campaign and may have dissuaded others from donating. That would, I do believe, meet the definition of hypocritical. JH was one who pushed hard and he took any negative reply personally. I'm having trouble faulting him for that. Maybe a touch of diplomacy when success was met? Sure. He did that is following posts. Still, we made it. Thank you Duck and Dave and the final anonymous donor (not me).

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01-22-15 09:36AM
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AlanMacNeill
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Ahh, you see tuck...you're misunderstanding the criticism of the entire campaign.

No one (at least not me, and I'm pretty sure not the others here) were dissing the *campaign*...getting and keeping webstreaming is valuable, and thank you to those who made it happen, either organizationally or financially.

What we are dissing is that there was even a need for a campaign. The USCA keeps pouring more and more resources into the HPP and it's "We're going to put all of our eggs into this one basket and hope" strategy for success...at the cost of one of the things that the entire organization should be supporting...letting members see the highest level of curling our nation can supply.

The fact that the Board would not (or could not...either is a problem) find not even 1% of the annual budget to make that go without having to force those who want it to come, hat in hand, to the community and beg for the money, is and deserves the harshest criticism that can be mustered.

Our structure is failing our game.

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01-22-15 09:50AM
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MCC_PE
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Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Cleveland, OH
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quote:
Originally posted by tuck
Different type of growth. The growth I was afforded thanks to Canuck TV. I think it is absolutely key.


I agree, and that's why ESPN3 picking up the CCA Season of Champions is just as important.

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01-22-15 10:59AM
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tuck
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In defining the problem, Alan, we are in total agreement. Our differences appear to be in our response.

With a couple of board members willing to put their reputations behind their beliefs, we had an opportunity to "flip the bird" to the budgeting process. By funding the webcast outside of the system, we can demonstrate our opinions rather than shout them into the cavernous internet.

In truth, I'm a touch disappointed in the USA curling internet community. My dreams would have included 200 people stepping forward with $100 each within 7 days of announcing the fund drive. Still, the touch of disappointment is not going to cloud these sunny days. This is good news and I'm not going to focus on the fact that it could have been even better.

So I am going to go forward with this good news and I'm going to take the next steps. I'm going to put on my preaching clothes and pontificate to any staff and directors that will listen. I have vowed to step back from curling and I have declined to weigh in on other matters of importance; but this one will break my new vow of silence.

To be clear: It is not my past association with TESN that drives my passion on this issue. It is my memories of what life afforded me via Canadian TV and fears of new curlers falling away because USA league curling isn't all that this wonderful sport should be.

As an aside: ESPN 3 is also a wonderful development. Still, Americans watching an American championship played with curlers you have met can have a special impact. Now we just need to get better at increasing viewership of TESN.

Very sincerely,
Ben Tucker

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01-22-15 11:12AM
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IMWright
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Registered: Dec 2014
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quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
So we're presented with a fork in the road...

US Curling can continue to rest it's hopes on NBC deciding to televise games somewhere on it's vast network of stations...which they are not wont to do...hell...we can't even get a live draw on NBCSN, the network that provides TWELVE hours a day of cycling during the Tour de France (4 live even).

If that alone doesn't show where we're seen in NBC's eyes, you're blind...

Alternatively, we can embrace the web and self-broadcasting options. Devices like the Roku, Amazon TV, Tivo's webcast features, etc, are allowing for Net Broadcast without having to break down the Network Doors. That way lies the future.

TESN is, can, and should continue to be, our leaders in this effort. Someone at the USCA should be getting ESPN3 on the phone and asking "Hey, you've got Canadian curling...we have Americans curling...what do we need to do to make this go?"

Yeah, TESN might need to up some of the technical details of their game a bit and become more professional....but only a bit, and with support, it can happen.

Or, we can continue to be happy with excerpted coverage of an event played 6 weeks ago...



Given that NBC has broadcasting rights for the Olympics, I'm curious if that prevents USCA (given that they get UOC money) to go elsewhere to get coverage on something other than an NBC station? Anyone know?

I do know people who watch Tour de France coverage during that time period it's on, so it must get decent ratings. I'm surprised though, that given the ratings/popularity of curling during the Olympic coverage (so I've heard, I guess I haven't seen the actual numbers, I've just read generalities saying it did well in ratings), that it's not given a go for a live slot on NBC/NBCSN at all. Are we/they not able to get the standard "normal" commercial sponsors for the broadcasting? You see Ford, Tim Horton's, etc. advertised all over the place during Canadian curling events on TV, can they (and others) not be solicited south of the (Canadian) border for US television?

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01-22-15 05:00PM
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curlky
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Registered: Oct 2013
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quote:
Originally posted by tuck

With a couple of board members willing to put their reputations behind their beliefs, we had an opportunity to "flip the bird" to the budgeting process. By funding the webcast outside of the system, we can demonstrate our opinions rather than shout them into the cavernous internet.

In truth, I'm a touch disappointed in the USA curling internet community. My dreams would have included 200 people stepping forward with $100 each within 7 days of announcing the fund drive. Still, the touch of disappointment is not going to cloud these sunny days. This is good news and I'm not going to focus on the fact that it could have been even better.



Your words above are where you and I differ Tuck. I am in agreement with you (and I think everyone on this thread actually is as well) that it is awesome that people stepped up to make this year's web stream happen. And I think the TESN guys do good work with what they do. And I think that it is important for as much coverage as possible of good curling to be available to all the new curlers in the US.

However, what you refer to as an opportunity to flip the bird, I look at as a chance to reward bad behavior. After JH's post lecture yesterday, I am not 100% clear who did it exactly, but someone made the decision to not pay the $20K with the USCA budget. In a financial review of that decision, seems brilliant, as the webcast will still occur, but the $20K was not spent. I am worried that the budget creators will look at this, and just repeat this exact same thing next year. If you were CEO, why would you ever fund it again if it still occurred without the funding?

But it is a bit of a catch 22. We as a community don't fund it, and it could hurt the sport that we love. Fund it, and we are rewarding the bad behavior of the budget creator.

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01-22-15 05:20PM
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Curlrock
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Your concern curlky, crossed my mind as well. If the web streaming was funded by donations this year, what is the motivation for the USCA to fund it next year.

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01-22-15 05:56PM
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tuck
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Curlky and Curlrock, I do have that concern as well. Funding the webstream uncoupled with a strong movement to get it back in the budget would be a huge mistake. A mistake that I, for one, do not intend to let happen.

Alan, I know you know...but let's always remember: HPP money currently comes from the USOC and not our dues and not our donations (unless we ask them to be earmarked thus). Most of the USOC monies do go towards the HPP, but some is for support. Regardless, the USOC says how much they are giving and they say EXACTLY how it will be spent. Lots of strings come along with those dollars (like final say on who goes to any Worlds...we "nominate" teams for Worlds and we no longer name teams and other such intricacies).

Ben Tucker

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01-22-15 06:17PM
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Deez
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Registered: Dec 2008
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If you feel so compelled to contact your local rep here is the list:

http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Curling/...rd-of-Directors

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02-05-15 12:43PM
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tuck
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Bump

Why bump this back onto the current topics list? The money has been raised and the webcast is going to happen. True. Still, I believe that raising the funds and failing to follow through on communicating its importance to our Board Of Directors is to leave the job half-done...in my humble opinion.

A sharp Board member will listen to your concerns, but might ask the tough question: Sure, we can fund the webcast...but what then should we cut? There isn't much fat in that budget (remembering, please, that the HPP budget should be viewed as totally separate and funded by the USOC and not our dues)

I don't think the answers lays in cutting. I see growth in membership and dues collected as the funding stream. I think the funds need to come from growth.

The last few years are difficult to chart the exact growth. Future growth is hard to predict. 4 years ago, dues were around $380,000. 2 years ago it was around $420,000. Last year around $440,000. IF the growth can continue and the chart looks favorable, the growth in Dues Income can cover the costs.

How high a cost we're willing to fund is a different question.

Sincerely,
Ben Tucker
disappointed in myself that I've only talked to a couple of Board members and one key staff person

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02-12-15 09:34AM
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jhcurl
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Webstream schedule for the week. Games later in the week might change.

Saturday, 4:30 p.m. ET Cory Christensen v. Aileen Sormunen
Saturday, 8:30 p.m. ET Ethan Meyers v. Dean Gemmell
Sunday, 8 a.m. ET Debbie McCormick v. Joyance Meechai
Sunday, 12 p.m. ET Korey Dropkin v. Mark Haluptzok
Sunday, 4 p.m. ET Kate Bert v. Jordan Moulton
Sunday, 8 p.m. ET John Shuster v. Heath McCormick
Monday, 8 a.m. ET Kim Wapola v. Erika Brown
Monday, 12 p.m. ET Craig Brown v. Brandon Corbett
Monday, 4 p.m. ET Aileen Sormunen v. Patti Lank
Monday, 8 p.m. ET Dean Gemmell v. Brady Clark
Tuesday, 10 a.m. ET Nina Roth v. Cory Christensen
Tuesday, 3 p.m. ET Paul Pustovar v. Ethan Meyers
Tuesday, 8 p.m. ET Jordan Moulton v. Debbie McCormick
Wednesday, 8 a.m. ET Heath McCormick v. Korey Dropkin
Wednesday, 12 p.m. ET Patti Lank v. Kate Bert
Wednesday, 4 p.m. ET Brady Clark v. John Shuster
Wednesday, 8 p.m. ET Erika Brown v. Nina Roth
Thursday, 8 a.m. ET Brandon Corbett v. Paul Pustovar
Thursday, 12 p.m./4 p.m. ET Tiebreaker games, if needed
Thursday, 8 p.m. Page playoffs, women's teams to be determined
Friday 12 p.m. Page playoffs, men's teams to be determined
Friday, 4 p.m. ET Women's semifinal
Friday, 8 p.m. ET Men's semifinal
Saturday, 10 a.m. ET Women's final
Saturday, 3 p.m. ET Men's final

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02-12-15 11:30AM
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USAnewbie
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Feb 2011
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quote:
Originally posted by jhcurl
Webstream schedule for the week. Games later in the week might change.

Saturday, 4:30 p.m. ET Cory Christensen v. Aileen Sormunen
Saturday, 8:30 p.m. ET Ethan Meyers v. Dean Gemmell
Sunday, 8 a.m. ET Debbie McCormick v. Joyance Meechai
Sunday, 12 p.m. ET Korey Dropkin v. Mark Haluptzok
Sunday, 4 p.m. ET Kate Bert v. Jordan Moulton
Sunday, 8 p.m. ET John Shuster v. Heath McCormick
Monday, 8 a.m. ET Kim Wapola v. Erika Brown
Monday, 12 p.m. ET Craig Brown v. Brandon Corbett
Monday, 4 p.m. ET Aileen Sormunen v. Patti Lank
Monday, 8 p.m. ET Dean Gemmell v. Brady Clark
Tuesday, 10 a.m. ET Nina Roth v. Cory Christensen
Tuesday, 3 p.m. ET Paul Pustovar v. Ethan Meyers
Tuesday, 8 p.m. ET Jordan Moulton v. Debbie McCormick
Wednesday, 8 a.m. ET Heath McCormick v. Korey Dropkin
Wednesday, 12 p.m. ET Patti Lank v. Kate Bert
Wednesday, 4 p.m. ET Brady Clark v. John Shuster
Wednesday, 8 p.m. ET Erika Brown v. Nina Roth
Thursday, 8 a.m. ET Brandon Corbett v. Paul Pustovar
Thursday, 12 p.m./4 p.m. ET Tiebreaker games, if needed
Thursday, 8 p.m. Page playoffs, women's teams to be determined
Friday 12 p.m. Page playoffs, men's teams to be determined
Friday, 4 p.m. ET Women's semifinal
Friday, 8 p.m. ET Men's semifinal
Saturday, 10 a.m. ET Women's final
Saturday, 3 p.m. ET Men's final



Looking forward to the webstream!!!

__________________
Yea, Curling!

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02-12-15 12:15PM
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tuck
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I predict that we'll continue to see the webcast evolve. Gone will be the Nice Guy Days where every team gets a chance to be on the featured game. Soon we'll see the Tuesday and Wednesday games featuring teams that are both in the running for playoffs.

I further predict that the USCA and TESN will stick with featuring the Page 3v4 instead of Page 1v2, even if the 1v2 matchup is sexier. If the Page 1v2 has the Yankees vs the Red Sox and the 3v4 has Braves vs Cardinals, many will ask for the 1v2. Think of it this way: Page 3v4 is an elimination game. So the choice is really a Game 7 Braves vs Cardinals or a Yankee vs. Red Sox Game 1.

I could be wrong.

Ben Tucker

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02-12-15 03:02PM
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fanofcurling
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I hope your prediction is correct Tuck. It's fine that we see each team once. Which takes us to the middle of Tuesday? (Essentially the first 10 draws)

After that I REALLY would like to see the games that matter most in the competition.

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02-13-15 12:30AM
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dbsdbs
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quote:
Originally posted by fanofcurling
After that I REALLY would like to see the games that matter most in the competition.


It would be nice if the championship game were one of those "games that matter most"... but don't bet on it.

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02-13-15 12:45AM
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rbi
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Many Thanks to those who donated for the webstream!!


$5,000+ Donors:
Russ Lemcke
William Peskoff Charitable Fund

$1,000-4,999 Donors:
LUBExpress Operating Co., Inc.
David Flippo
Rich Lepping

$500-999 Donors:
David R Carlson
Dean Gemmell
Steven Mannik
Bennet Tucker

$100-499 Donors:
Amye Brewer
Derek Brown
Brady Clark
Ann M Drummie
Scott Edie
Michael Farbelow
Alan R Gemmell
Kellie Krake
Christopher Lee
Frederick S. Leichter
Gordon Maclean
Caitlin Maroldo
Heath McCormick
Dena Rosenberry
Alexander Schoen
Jason Sethi
Jane Thompson

$0-100 Donors:
Rebecca M Andrew
Janet Athanasiou
Jordan Becker
Ryan Berg
Craig Brown
Alexandra Carlson
Maureen Clark
Frederick Aaron Dubberley
Michael Fry
Dale Gibbs
Patrick Gillis
John M Hall
Jeff Hannon
Timothy Ho
Rachel O Howell
Will Hsiung
Bret Jackson
Jennifer Kamarainen
Terry Kolesar
J Michael Kriz
Patricia Lank
James T Luttinen
Heath McCormick
Natalie Nicholson
Samuel Oglesby
Dorothy M. Roach
Donn Satrom
Matthew Scheiner
Jason Scott
Dannie Steski
Mark Swandby

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02-13-15 02:49PM
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tuck
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IMWright (Tony?) hits the nail on the head and his post is totally right (Wright?). It has me dreaming big dreams.

To his credit and to be totally fair, TV coverage has been the long-chased dream of Rick Patzke. His vision has long been to bring curling to American TV and then to reap the rewards of growth that would follow.

Today my dream is:

The webstream will continue to improve. Multisheet coverage will leave little if NO deadtime. Should a game be a stinker or a yawner (wide open end or lopsided score), pop over a sheet. Keep an eye on multiple sheets. It would probably take an extra mic and maybe an extra director.

In our Made For TV events, too much is riding on the game being exciting and well played. When the Canucks are doing the Continental Cup, for instance, they readily bounce from sheet to sheet while focusing on their feature matchup.

Once a sharp NBC director realizes that his product depends on the quality of the game, more cameras will fix that for him. As the games go on, the chances of an exciting finish on one of the sheets are absolutely excellent.

So that is today's dream: TESN will showcase multiple sheet coverage with exciting last rocks. Someone at NBC will notice and learn. TV events will then become less Made For TV and real events. With a surge in product quality, viewership and advertisers will soar.

Ben Tucker
Dreamer

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02-14-15 08:20PM
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Grat
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Is the webstream only available live, or are replays going to be posted somewhere? For some reason my boss is not crazy about me watching curling for 4 hours of my workday.

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02-14-15 08:22PM
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IMWright
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Registered: Dec 2014
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quote:
Originally posted by tuck
IMWright (Tony?) hits the nail on the head and his post is totally right (Wright?). It has me dreaming big dreams.

To his credit and to be totally fair, TV coverage has been the long-chased dream of Rick Patzke. His vision has long been to bring curling to American TV and then to reap the rewards of growth that would follow.

Today my dream is:

The webstream will continue to improve. Multisheet coverage will leave little if NO deadtime. Should a game be a stinker or a yawner (wide open end or lopsided score), pop over a sheet. Keep an eye on multiple sheets. It would probably take an extra mic and maybe an extra director.

In our Made For TV events, too much is riding on the game being exciting and well played. When the Canucks are doing the Continental Cup, for instance, they readily bounce from sheet to sheet while focusing on their feature matchup.

Once a sharp NBC director realizes that his product depends on the quality of the game, more cameras will fix that for him. As the games go on, the chances of an exciting finish on one of the sheets are absolutely excellent.

So that is today's dream: TESN will showcase multiple sheet coverage with exciting last rocks. Someone at NBC will notice and learn. TV events will then become less Made For TV and real events. With a surge in product quality, viewership and advertisers will soar.

Ben Tucker
Dreamer



No I'm not Tony... And Tuck says I'm right, I'll take it. :-)

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02-15-15 02:11PM
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TNH
Hitting Paint

 

Registered: May 2011
Location:
Posts: 161

Too Funny!

Thanks to the webstream, not only do we get to see a paint bucket sitting in the 8 foot to catch roof leaks, we get to see the iceman reach out and lift up the bucket just in time to avoid a jam! High entertainment, good laughs, and even some curling at nationals. Would've missed it if it wasn't for the webstream .

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02-15-15 02:34PM
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TJNCJ
Swing Artist

 

Registered: Nov 2008
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Posts: 209

Webstream is great, but a bit choppy. Actually clearer picture on my phone.

The bucket is a hoot, but hopefully not a fixture this week.

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02-15-15 03:21PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Jan 2006
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All Cheer for "Phil the Bucket"

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02-20-15 04:56PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Feb 2011
Location:
Posts: 61

Hey Joe,

Thanks again for getting this up and running again.
I did watch the some of the games....so, I'll make sure to chip in (hopefully that link is still working).

2 things that made be sort of uncomfortable though...and I don't know if you're at liberty to address them.

1. lots of CSA's you're running for the USCA (curling service announcements). Some of them seem like they might financially benefit the USCA.

2. 5 second AT&T ad when the stream starts

So, I don't know if you are being compensated for those....or if the USCA or maybe the USOC for the AT&T stuff...but, just kind leaves a bad taste with me if the USCA went from no real video exposure because they didn't want to kick in, to 'generating some income' for themselves.

Anyway, that's all...keep up the good work.

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02-20-15 05:12PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Feb 2011
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Posts: 61

Why cut anything...didn't they just hire some fancy fundraiser last year to come in rake in the cash? I can't tell how restricted they are on advertising or putting logos in the ice or whatever...by the USOC. But seems like they might be able to fundraise a good portion of the cost through sponsorships. That just takes work and effort I suppose.

On a side note...the Arena Nationals is (I believe) the most expensive bonspiel in the nation right now. 32 tms at $550 is almost $18000.00. And the organizers in Cedar Rapids are going out and looking for even more sponsorship. I curl on arena ice and even at it's absolute most crazy expensive it's like $9k for a weekend. So, instead of gouging the players AND the club hitting up even more $ to break even...what is the USCA doing? For one, who said the arena nats has to be held on arena ice where it's most certainly more expensive?

And don't get me started on Club Nats...where they rake in $35000.00 on a $5000-7 or so $ spiel? Seniors, Mixed Doubles, Challenges all pay for the spiel they play in. Only about 20% of the others participants are playing in the spiel they are paying for...and that feels like 'taxation' if you ask me.

I guess the point here is either the USCA is constantly playing a shell game where they are fundraising on the backs of their cash cows or trying to get something for nothing and finding a way to still make a little something on the side or just plain not being very smart with the $.

Very disappointing.

quote:
Originally posted by tuck
Bump

Why bump this back onto the current topics list? The money has been raised and the webcast is going to happen. True. Still, I believe that raising the funds and failing to follow through on communicating its importance to our Board Of Directors is to leave the job half-done...in my humble opinion.

A sharp Board member will listen to your concerns, but might ask the tough question: Sure, we can fund the webcast...but what then should we cut? There isn't much fat in that budget (remembering, please, that the HPP budget should be viewed as totally separate and funded by the USOC and not our dues)

I don't think the answers lays in cutting. I see growth in membership and dues collected as the funding stream. I think the funds need to come from growth.

The last few years are difficult to chart the exact growth. Future growth is hard to predict. 4 years ago, dues were around $380,000. 2 years ago it was around $420,000. Last year around $440,000. IF the growth can continue and the chart looks favorable, the growth in Dues Income can cover the costs.

How high a cost we're willing to fund is a different question.

Sincerely,
Ben Tucker
disappointed in myself that I've only talked to a couple of Board members and one key staff person

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