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08-26-15 01:09PM
AlanMacNeill is offline Click Here to See the Profile for AlanMacNeill Click here to Send AlanMacNeill a Private Message Find more posts by AlanMacNeill Add AlanMacNeill to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
AlanMacNeill
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Experimental Mixed Doubles Rules

So hidden away down in an August spiel in New Zealand....the WCF has uncorked some experimental rules for mixed doubles they are evaluating and considering adopting next month at the Annual Congress...

Leaving aside for a moment commentary on "It's Mixed Doubles, I hate it/who cares/etc"...let's consider that this *is* an Olympic event now...and note just how much these rules could impact...especially if they turn out to be a hit and therefore get rolled into the Men's/Women's games:

The Changes (according to http://www.curling.ca/blog/2015/08/...in-new-zealand/ ):

- Timing system is all weird...each game doesn't have it's own clock, instead, it's 30 second intervals...20 seconds to think, then 10 seconds for *ALL* sheets to deliver...more or less at the same time. I assume (but don't know for sure) this means no time outs, and that the 20 seconds starts when the last stone comes to rest

- No longer does there *have* to be a player in the house when the stone is delivered. If the shooter wishes, they can pick any visual cue they can find to guide their shot. This means that the teammate can be there and ready to sweep instantly...this seems likely to be a mixed blessing at most, imo...how do you know they *need* to sweep if no one has the line?

- Minor movement of the preset stones...now instead of one stone starting at the back of the button, it's now starting at the back of the 4-foot. I still don't see the purpose of the preset stones anyhow...let em throw 6 per end and suck up the extra 8 minutes of play time...

- Finally, something that should bring cheers to the heart of any NHL fan...the Power Play. Seriously...once per game a team can choose to go with a different pre-set...now their stone will be on the T at the edge of the 8 foot, and the opponent's preset stone will be a "perfect corner guard" (what, exactly, that means was not defined...I assume guarding the other stone).

So...umm...yeah...discuss or something...

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08-26-15 02:21PM
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dbsdbs
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If anyone doubted that mixed doubles is a gimmick, these potential changes should put those thoughts to rest. But what more can you say? If our curling leaders think this is the direction our game should go, then... [wow]

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08-26-15 02:26PM
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It may be a gimmick...but it's a gimmick that awards medals every 4 years...so...it must be taken seriously.

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08-26-15 03:11PM
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Justintwiss
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The only rule change I like is not having to keep one person in the house while the stone is being delivered. From years of throwing rocks, which I assume these players have all done they can pick a spot on the bumper or whatever and throw to it.

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08-26-15 04:11PM
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misty1
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i really dont think any changes should be made. this is a format thats only had a championship since 2008. thats 7 years. any change to the format already just shows that they dont have confidence in it .

let this format gain some footing before you decide to start changing things. people dont even understand the game yet and now you are thinking about changing the rules already?. no what people mind understand the rules as they are now have to change their understanding of how this works again

this is a mistake

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08-26-15 06:39PM
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thekiltedcurler
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I have played some mixed doubles, and actually enjoy it more than regular 4 player curling. I like the tempo and level of engagement required. That said, I do realize that in its current format it isn't the easiest to watch, especially for casual spectators (most of the US audience for the Olympics). It has tended to be a draw heavy game with few exciting hits, little variation is strategy, a crowded house which makes it difficult to tell (for the unfamiliar spectator) who is in a better position, and more subdued excitement as far as shouting and sweeping are concerned. I think there is some merit to a couple of these anyway.

- Moving hammer team's placed stone from back of the pin to back of the 4-foot - I like this rule, it forces the non-hammer team to commit to either a force or a steal strategy with their first shot where traditionally you would play the same shot every time with the goal of setting up a steal and play for a force on a miss. I think this might also encourage the hammer team to try to spread things out a little more.

- Power Play - This would definitely bring some variety into the game; its hard to say how it would wind up playing out without trying it, but I'd be happy to test it out for a season. Also worth noting the increased difficulty level since the paths to the button usually get well broken in, but rarely paths to the wings so you will likely encounter some untouched ice.

- Removing the requirement for a 'skip' to be in the house - I'm still on the fence about this one. I think if this rule is approved, many teams will still keep a player in the house. You have to look at the trade-offs, does the extra 15-20 feet of sweeping offset calling your own line, does having two sweepers most of the way offset calling line from on top of the rock, are you enough of a stronger/weaker sweeper than your partner to offset the extra 15-20 feet? It'll be interesting to see what teams do if this is approved, I'll probably keep doing it the way I have been.

- Special timing (possibly with musical interludes) - I think this is one of the worst ideas I have ever heard. I don't think it adds to the game in any way for the players, and I don't think it adds anything for spectators (how many shots can you watch played at once?). I think this throws off the natural tempo of the game where you typically play the first couple of rocks per end quickly so you can take more time later in the end to decide what to do with the seven rocks frozen together in the 4-foot. Are we trying to encourage poor shot calls? Clock management has been a part of competitive curling for a while now, what would people think if this were done for 4-player curling? There are also some practical concerns. How does this work if you have games going on eight sheets at once? Are we expected to implement this in our club leagues, who wants to deal with finding someone to run a timer for league? This rule simply befuddles me with its absurdity. It really has little to do with encouraging a higher level of play, and I'm sure its all for showmanship and pleasing audiences which I doubt it will do. Moreover, this is a rule which I think ruins mixed doubles as an enjoyable activity to participate in and is the only one, which if approved, would deter me from pursuing mixed doubles competitively.

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08-26-15 07:46PM
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Coach Dave
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Semis are being streamed,,,

http://worldcurling.org/wgnz-2015

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08-26-15 10:17PM
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dbsdbs
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quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
It may be a gimmick...but it's a gimmick that awards medals every 4 years...so...it must be taken seriously.


Hard to take seriously any game that wants to change its rules to provide time for music that will not be interrupted by play on the ice, and hard to take seriously a game that allows a team to change the rules of the game for one end.

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08-27-15 04:18AM
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Alice
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That music idea..... I'm wondering what the playlist was for these New Zealand mixed doubes games.... Thumping disco? Techno? Heavy Metal? (One can be sure it was not Bach for the "Chess on Ice" sport.)

I can see the WCF rules committee thinking, "Hey! I know how we can be POPULAR on TV and get more TV coverage and money.... Let's have music!" "Yes! Like beach volleyball!!" "How about all the girls wear bikinis!!" (You think I'm joking? Guess again. Look what happened to ladies figure skating outfits at the Olympics when entertainment money started pouring into that sport when Sonia Henie went Hollywood and Katerina Witt wore one too many feathers... or was it not enough feathers?)

Kudos to the mixed doubles gentleman wearing the dreadlocks in NZ this week. That's the New Spirit! Goes with the thumping music.

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08-27-15 10:32AM
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MNIceman
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Haters gonna hate

Why do people feel the need to bash something that doesn't impact them in any way? Do you really think that the addition of Mixed Doubles is going to change the traditional 4 person game? If you think Mixed Doubles is just a gimmicky side show, guess what, you don't have to watch it! You're life can go on just as it did before Mixed Doubles existed.

Talk about Mixed Doubles feels like a gay marriage debate at times. It's destroying the sanctity of our traditional game!

Now as someone who plays and hasn't made up their mind that Doubles is a stupid format that is destroying the sport I think some of the new rules they tried are pretty good. The timing change is pretty drastic and I hope that doesn't go through. Not forcing someone to stand in the house is good. I also think the change in rock position and power play will do a good job of adding some variability to the ends.

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08-27-15 11:44AM
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rbi
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Seems like a great time for WCF to experiment and change the rules. It's early enough that there isn't too much history and tradition built up, but there is enough experience gained over the past decade for them to recognize what needs to change.

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08-27-15 04:45PM
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curlky
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- Player in the house - I'm fine with this rule. Seems like a silly rule anyway. Let the team play how they see fit. If they want no skip to call line, then let them do it.

- Preset Stones - For me, I like this. It takes away the "easy" to the button onto the preset stone. Now you have to worry about going to deep and freezing to the 4 foot stone, and opening up for your opponent.

- Timing - I don't think that I could hate this more. As a habit, unless I am tight on time, I will never deliver a stone at the same time as a person on an adjacent sheet. Too much confusion and simultaneous yelling leads to problems. I either hurry up and deliver 1 second before, or wait a second.


- Power Play - I want to see how this plays out. Mixed doubles has become the draw to the button game, with very little diversity. I feel like this is likely to force additional skills to be dominant in the game. I have no idea if this suggestion is right or not, but I would love to see how it plays out.

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08-27-15 05:44PM
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Alice
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I certainly don't "hate" this new WCF Mixed Doubles rules. Curling is a game after all and many think it must be "entertaining" somehow to attract TV viewers and the greatest number of new players possible.

Just as skiing sports developed from simple Nordic winter transport to freestyle boarding with thumping music..... the more variety the merrier. My local club already has a Friday night league with music and not every club has a waiting list of hardcore super leaguers wanting to play every evening

Evolve or die. We moved our game indoors, Got rid of the crampits attached to our feet. Change happens. But, I do expect the old game of chess on ice for people of all ages and fitness levels to remain at least at clubs, even if it is now being pushed out from the Olympic Movement thanks to countries' quests for medals and IOC's quests for ever more cash.

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08-27-15 05:47PM
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MNIceman
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quote:
Originally posted by Alice
...even if it is now being pushed out from the Olympic Movement thanks to countries' quests for medals and IOC's quests for ever more cash.


How exactly is the traditional 4 person curling format being pushed out of the Olympics?

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08-27-15 09:37PM
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Kiwi
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Great to see this discussion. The players at Winter Games were positive about the proposed rules changes, and it was interesting to see them working out ways to use/attack/defend the Powerplay. Just for information - the timing experiment that was used at Winter Games New Zealand is not being proposed as a WCF rule change at this time.

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08-27-15 10:20PM
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curlky
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quote:
Originally posted by MNIceman


How exactly is the traditional 4 person curling format being pushed out of the Olympics?



I believe that this could be related to the fact that a new curling event was added, but the total number of athletes was not. I dont think it is being pushed out, but it is interesting.

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08-27-15 10:25PM
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Kiwi
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@curlky - actually, curling did well out of having Mixed Doubles added. We got a new medal discipline, and we were actually allowed to increase the overall number of curling athletes. There is no reduction to the number of athletes in the existing Olympic Mens and Womens curling competition (10 nations each), while the first Olympic Doubles competition will have 8 nations competing.

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08-28-15 03:08AM
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CaptMorgan
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Think of it this way:

There is volleyball with 6 players per side.
Then there is beach volleyball.

The people in charge are trying to make mixed doubles the beach volleyball of curling.

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08-28-15 01:27PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiwi
@curlky - actually, curling did well out of having Mixed Doubles added. We got a new medal discipline, and we were actually allowed to increase the overall number of curling athletes. There is no reduction to the number of athletes in the existing Olympic Mens and Womens curling competition (10 nations each), while the first Olympic Doubles competition will have 8 nations competing.


Thanks for teh update. Last I heard that event was added, but there was no increase in total athletes.

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08-28-15 05:58PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiwi
@curlky - actually, curling did well out of having Mixed Doubles added. We got a new medal discipline, and we were actually allowed to increase the overall number of curling athletes. There is no reduction to the number of athletes in the existing Olympic Mens and Womens curling competition (10 nations each), while the first Olympic Doubles competition will have 8 nations competing.


What is your source for this? I have yet to see anything from reliable sources that says the WCF quota has been increased.

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08-29-15 03:57AM
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Source - IOC and WCF

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08-29-15 10:28AM
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SargentIV
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I still cannot find a single publication from the IOC or the WCF that mentions Curling's athlete quota for the Olympic Games will be increased to accommodate Mixed Doubles. Where did you see anything that mentions an increase in the number of athletes?

Please note, I'm not talking about the number of teams, rather I'm talking about the quota of athletes. It has happened in the past where the IOC allows International Sports Federations to add events to their Olympic program, but does not increase the athletes quota. The result is that the ISF has to cut spots available to preexisting events.

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08-31-15 02:14AM
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Alice
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quote:
Originally posted by MNIceman


How exactly is the traditional 4 person curling format being pushed out of the Olympics?



I wrote the "old game of chess on ice" for players of "all ages and fitness levels" is being phased out at the Olympics, not that the "traditional 4 person" game was being pushed out.

Older, highly experienced skips from the "chess on ice" game are also being eliminated by coaches selecting national teams which the Olympic Agenda 2020 expressly wants to have youth appeal and attractiveness for TV according to:
http://www.olympic.org/news/new-eve...ang-2018/246262

We don't see smokers on the ice at international competitions anymore nor many skips with middle-aged stomachs given the higher, faster, stronger credo of the Olympics. Our sport's image on the world stage for the 4-player game is headed the same way of the doubles game with its younger and fitter players thanks to their running after their own stones and ever more rule changes for TV attractiveness.

WCF might decide at its Serbian meeting this week what is the 2018 Olympic mixed doubles athlete quota and qualification process. Any bets the doubles Olympians will be the 5th alternates from 4-player teams or just whomever the national coaches select from the national teams to curl which event? What's for sure is WCF will set minimal worlds standards for nations to qualify, leave it up to national governing bodies to select the team(s) and the nontraditional-countries argument that helped mixed doubles get in the Games will likely fade away as "traditional" curling countries field more mixed doubles players in the chase for Olympic gold.

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08-31-15 12:55PM
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Phil_D
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quote:
Originally posted by Alice
What's for sure is WCF will set minimal worlds standards for nations to qualify, leave it up to national governing bodies to select the team(s) and the nontraditional-countries argument that helped mixed doubles get in the Games will likely fade away as "traditional" curling countries field more mixed doubles players in the chase for Olympic gold.


Excellent point.

I'm sure there will be one or two outliers, but otherwise the rest of the field is probably going to be the usual countries.

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08-31-15 12:59PM
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AlanMacNeill
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Let's see....eight slots...presumably one autogranted to the hosts (South Korea)...so seven "qualifiers"

Based on nothing other than gut...I'm putting this on the wall...two+ years early so you can marvel at my prognostication abilities when it comes down:

Qualifying Nations:
Canada
USA
New Zealand
Russia
Norway
GB
Japan

Medal Prediction:

USA Gold
Norway Silver
Canada Bronze
New Zealand loses the bronze game

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Curling Scores

W: USA Curling Junior National Championships
Eau Claire, WI
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: W5 -- Thu, Mar 28 -- 8:00am CT
Giroux Final
Schapman (7) Watch Live Curling!
Johnson 10  Final
Scheel (9) Watch Live Curling!
Berg Final
Viau (9) Watch Live Curling!
Pekowitz 11  Final
Berg (7) Watch Live Curling!
M: USA Curling Junior National Championships
Eau Claire, WI
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: M5 -- Wed, Mar 27 -- 7:00pm CT
Fitzgerald Final
Guentzel (10) Watch Live Curling!
Cenzalli Final
Rose (10) Watch Live Curling!
Church Final
Lannoye (10) Watch Live Curling!
Hebert Final
Brenden (9) Watch Live Curling!
M: Canadian Mixed Doubles Curling Championship
Fredericton, NB
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: CF -- Fri, Mar 22 -- 1:00pm AT
Lott/Lott Final
Walk/Muyr (8) Watch Live Curling!
M: Swiss Junior Championships
Thun, SUI
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: CF2 -- Sun, Mar 24 -- 3:00am ET
Caccivio Final
Brauchli 12  (EE)
Dryburgh Final
Ringgenberg (9)
W: Swiss Junior Championships
Thun, SUI
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: CF2 -- Sun, Mar 24 -- 9:00am CET
Schwaller Final
Oberson (9)
Blackham Final
von Arx (9)
W: NWTCA Curling Club Championships
Fort Smith, NT
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: 3 -- Sat, Mar 23 -- 11:00am MT
Stroeder Final
Delorey (7)
M: NWTCA Curling Club Championships
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Homan Brings Home Gold

Homan Brings Home Gold

Sydney, Canada - In front of a full house with over 4,000 spectators, Canada (photo: Stephen Fisher, World Curling) beat Switzerland by 7-5 to take gold at the BKT Tires World Women's Curling Championship 2024.

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