Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
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Both our teams (Craig skipping The Brownies and The Brady Bunch) are undefeated in the kinda cool sounding Outdoor Red Square Shootout.

This could get wild. I wish I knew enough about Points to intelligently discuss the implications. I wish Beads would lose out in Seniors and have time to explain it to me. (OK, that sounded more selfish than I meant)

I don't know if there are enough points available there to move The Brownies into the Top 25. If The Brownies do get enough points (5.4?), then it would bump Heater out of the Top 25. As the Ontario Tankard gets ready to roll, many teams in it could bump either Heater or Brownie out. So it's looking like the amount of Points available at USA Nationals is locked at 15 (actually 7.5 but we here double the points for our purposes???) Yeah, I'm not good at this.

A more interesting scenario:

Let's say that The Brownies play The Bunch in the Red Square Finals where Points will be on the line. Then they meet again in the Men's Final at Kalamazoo where there will be Points on the line. IF The Brady Bunch wins both games, will they pick enough enough Points to make it to Worlds? My remedial understanding is: NO. Unless the USA got 3 teams into the the Top 25 Points to really ratchet up the amount of Points available at our National Championships, then The Bunch (like the rest of the field) will need Face, Heater and Brownie to finish outside the Top 3 in Kalamazoo for The Bunch to get to Worlds.

Ben Tucker
In over my head

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All of which reminds me of a couple things:

Who's gonna keep track of all this crap if Gerry dies? Not that I'm predicting anything to befall our beloved CurlingZone Czar With The Incredibly Large Bucket Head. Still, I think there is price on his large head in Western Canada and it's Dead Or Alive.

Secondly: When are we going to pat ourselves on the back for being the nation running second to only Canada? We have 5 Women's teams in the Top 60 (with a couple of really good players sitting this year out). We have 3 Men's teams in the Top 30 and 3 more in the Top 100 and a couple more just below that (Haluptzok could break the Top 100 and Stolt just missed). We're doin' pretty dang good and that ain't even countin' the subtours like Corbett in Ontario and the Great Lakes Tour and Manitoba.

And that brings to mind the complaint from Western Canada that Ontario events and some European events seem to get so many points while they get dang few. It's because the math favors the areas that get lots of events and have lots of teams that hunt those points. We in the USA are getting very close to this Favored By The Math status. If we can keep 5 or 6 teams in the Top 50, then our spiels will be point-worthy even if we just have those teams playing and not importing Top 10 teams. This is a very good and potentially important development...I think...points ain't really my area of expertize.

Mostly, this all brings to mind lots of questions about what events get Points and how many. Jesus of Nazareth said, "If 2 or more are gathered in my name, then I will be there." Guertzie of Ontario then said, "If teams that already have Points are gathered, then Points will be awarded." As more and more events with limited access and small fields are born, it can look more and more unjust. Still, we need these events. Still, the teams playing in them are foregoing opportunities to play in events that offer points. If we want these small events to succeed (and we really, really, really do), then we must give up justice in favor of Guertzie's Math. Simply because the Points are not available to any and all deserving teams that would have liked to curl in that event doesn't mean that there should not be Points awarded.

And...yes...I've gone to capitalizing Points. If we in the USA are going to basing some decisions on Points (like who goes to Worlds), then they've become important enough to capitalize.

Ben Tucker
Math sucks

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Tuck-My previous post on Men's teams chances at worlds is still true. Not sure if you missed that or just don't trust me! The US World qualification points available at Nationals will remain at the minimum.

The Red Square event looks like it will be worth about 5.6 points to the winner, 3.92 for 2nd, 2.8 for 3rd-4th. Not sure what the playoff format is but Brady won his pool and Brown got 2nd in the other pool so they might meet in a semi final.

Brady needs to not lose any ground to Brown in the world's points race so if Brady wins Nationals and Brown gets 3rd (and McCormick and Shuster are 4th or worse) he can go to worlds. If Brady wins in Red Square and Brown doesn't make the final Brady might gain enough in the US World point race so that if he beats Brown in the National final he could actually go to World's.

It's just that simple

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I didn't miss it. I do trust you. It's just that my eyes glaze over and my brain drifts away when the Points stuff comes up.

In my defense, Points are a vicious trap. Just when you think you have stuff figured out, some caveat comes up and the scenario blows up in your face.

For instance: They can only claim 6 events. That kills simple subtraction and brings it to algebra. So Nationals will be worth 45, 35 and 30 points for the podium??? Are those already doubled or do we need to double them?

I guess we'll just have to trust MnIceman. Far better would be my alternative plan. It involves tying up Guertzie and cutting him with razor blades until he clearly explains both WCT math and USCA adaptations.

Until the dream becomes a reality, we'll have to live by In Pete We Trust. I suspect he has lots of scenarios figured out for the Women's field.

Ben Tucker
Jumper cables connected to Dallas wouldn't be a bad thing either

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quote:

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Originally posted by tuck
When are we going to pat ourselves on the back for being the nation running second to only Canada? We have 5 Women's teams in the Top 60 (with a couple of really good players sitting this year out). We have 3 Men's teams in the Top 30 and 3 more in the Top 100 and a couple more just below that (Haluptzok could break the Top 100 and Stolt just missed). We're doin' pretty dang good and that ain't even countin' the subtours like Corbett in Ontario and the Great Lakes Tour and Manitoba.

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OK, I forgot about the Swiss. I'm a big admirer of that system. Gemmell's podcast with their Director was extremely interesting.

Still, we aren't the bottom of the curling world that we sometimes feel like we might have become.

Ben Tucker
Quite confusing me with facts

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Looks like Brown beat Clark in the Red Square Semis so now Team Clark would need Shuster, McCormick, and Brown to finish out of the top 3 to have a shot at Worlds.

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quote:

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Originally posted by MNIceman
Looks like Brown beat Clark in the Red Square Semis so now Team Clark would need Shuster, McCormick, and Brown to finish out of the top 3 to have a shot at Worlds.

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Assuming that one of those three finishes in the top 3 at Nationals, then yes...

The rule is that it's the top point holder who finishes in the top 3.

One or another of those three is going to be the top point holder after Nats, that's pretty much mathematically clinched.

So, unless all of them miss the playoffs (possible, but not terribly likely), yes, those are the only three teams who can represent us at Worlds.

Technically, I guess this satisfies the legal "Must settle World Teams through competition" that is at the heart of the Stephens Sports Act...but wow...this sort of thing goes against the spirit.

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so if I was thinking of attending Nationals, this would pretty much put an end to that idea. Not very interesting when there really is no dark horse with a chance and only 3 of the 10 teams have anything to play for.

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Ah, come on now. 10 teams are still playing for the national title. 10 teams are still interesting and compelling. 10 teams are still full of cool guys that you can actually meet and maybe share a beer IF you are buying.

I'm interested in a Mnice update: Did Brownie's silver in Moscow give him enough points to pass Face if those two teams were to meet in the Finals? I kinda had it in my head that Brownie needed the semifinal win over Brady or a Facey/Brownie Final would effect the World team nomination.

Finals effecting the World team nomination??? OK, that just reads strange. Still, Kalamazoo will be the place to be. Next year: Florida!

Tuck

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sorry Tuck but when we are not sure if the finals will have any impact on world team selection then it may be a championship with lots of good guys but it is not a nationals

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quote:

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Originally posted by tuck
Ah, come on now. 10 teams are still playing for the national title. 10 teams are still interesting and compelling. 10 teams are still full of cool guys that you can actually meet and maybe share a beer IF you are buying.

I'm interested in a Mnice update: Did Brownie's silver in Moscow give him enough points to pass Face if those two teams were to meet in the Finals? I kinda had it in my head that Brownie needed the semifinal win over Brady or a Facey/Brownie Final would effect the World team nomination.

Finals effecting the World team nomination??? OK, that just reads strange. Still, Kalamazoo will be the place to be. Next year: Florida!

Tuck

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Even worse is points for an event held on skating ice. When the skip just shrugs his shoulders and randomly places the broom down it's barely curling anymore. They were having to play shots with negative ice, and it looked like there were still Zamboni ridges. There were hits missed by almost two feet.

An amazing location and a worthwhile exhibition for curling, but not point worthy in my mind.

Plus, I am going to take on the Russians use of komander for "skip" from now on.

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OK, I concede that it's no longer really Nationals because of all the crap like Points. Still, it's a good event. I'll go to it next year most likely.

OK, I concede that the Red Square thing wasn't the most Points worthy event on tour this year. Still, we need these Made For TV events to help grow the game. It's important that they succeed. If a couple of teams are taking away from their Tour stops, then there has to be Points or we won't get any of them to curl. It's not much worse than giving Points for the Continental Cup.

OK, I concede that I don't know if a Face vs. Brownie Finals would have the winner advancing to Worlds. I think Face would go because Brownie can only bring in Points from 6 events so dropping the Red Square Final might have cost him big...maybe...I don't know.

What I won't concede is that this is making my brain hurt. I'm pickin' Face Team over The Brownies in the Final. I'm not cheering against the HPP...just cheering against the HPP. I'm also growing weary of defending parts of a system of which I was never a proponent. I simply see some of the logic behind it.

Ben Tucker

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I too am no proponent of the HPProgram but I do understand the desire to try something different. I think it is unfortunate though that one result of doing so is, as even Tuck concedes, that we end the season with a championship but not a Nationals. Maybe that is no big deal because the event seems to draw fans -- look at Philly and maybe Kalamazoo -- but note too that those places where the championship seems to draw fans are not traditional USA curling areas. I submit that this is at least in part because the HPProgram is not popular in areas with a USA curling history -- except for those few curlers who have been accepted into the HPProgram.

Maybe it is ok that USA Curling is losing lots of support from longer-time curlers because obviously the game is growing in popularity. But what happens as more of these older clubs start making the payment of USCA dues voluntary, as some clubs already are doing? Probably it is folly to blame this USCA issue on the HPProgram because I think the "unrest" began some years ago, but I do think the HPProgram is now accelerating that dissatisfaction.

All of this rambling I guess is to say that I am an old-time curler who will travel miles to watch the Canadians National championships but no longer have interest in the USA championships. I know I am not alone in this regard. Indeed, I am part of what is probably a pretty sizable group that also hopes that non-HPP teams win the right to represent USA at worlds. And unfortunately there is an even larger group of curlers that has no interest at all in who wins the USA championships.

Last edited by dbsdbs on 02-02-15 at 12:57AM

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I pretty much agree, dbs. I don't agree about traveling to watch nationals (stopped capitalizing the N...what is JH's name for it? National Bonspiel That Might Lead To Worlds?). I still think it's a great experience. Philly was wonderful last year and that was under these rules.

I agree with cheering for a nonHPP team making it. GO SHOOSTIE! I would never, never, never cheer against the HPP players. Can't see myself cheering against the likes of Heater, Brownie, Joe Cool, Aileen, Lil Miss Hammy, etc... I will, however, be cheering against the Program itself.

As for your points on Nationals being in nontraditional curling areas: I think it is a wonderful thing and on many different levels. Early on, top staff in the USCA realized the getting exposure to arena conditions was important to our top teams. Arena ice ain't cheap, but they've moved heaven and earth to make certain that it happens.

Going to Denver paid dividends. Nice new club thriving there now. I think Philly will pay dividends as well.

Ticket sales seems to be, in large part, a function of having a great arena staff. Because of that, look for another return to Philly in the near future. We love them and they love us. I'm hoping that Florida has similar results. I'm also hoping that it helps curling in Florida catch on.

I hear you, DBS. In the long run, the HPP might hurt nationals. Lately, however, nationals have been extremely successful on many levels. I just hope they can keep finding cheap arena ice manned with staff that can really sell tickets.


Ben Tucker

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quote:

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Originally posted by tuck
Going to Denver paid dividends. Nice new club thriving there now. I think Philly will pay dividends as well.

Ticket sales seems to be, in large part, a function of having a great arena staff. Because of that, look for another return to Philly in the near future. We love them and they love us. I'm hoping that Florida has similar results. I'm also hoping that it helps curling in Florida catch on.

I hear you, DBS. In the long run, the HPP might hurt nationals. Lately, however, nationals have been extremely successful on many levels. I just hope they can keep finding cheap arena ice manned with staff that can really sell tickets.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Grat
Even worse is points for an event held on skating ice. When the skip just shrugs his shoulders and randomly places the broom down it's barely curling anymore. They were having to play shots with negative ice, and it looked like there were still Zamboni ridges. There were hits missed by almost two feet.

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Arena practice seems like a nice goal, so I'm calling it the Arena Practice Experience bonspiel -- APEspiel.

Recently, this event has been exciting and fun. Good crowds, likable personalities, TESN webstreaming, TV coverage of finals, good competition, etc. Way more exciting than (for example) the European Championships.

But I cringe every time I hear about it taking another step toward APEspiel:

• winner does not (necessarily) go to worlds
  
• high performance teams receiving exemptions regardless of the highness of their performances
  
• webstream funding cut
  
• junior teams receiving exemptions
  
• etc.
  

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quote:

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Originally posted by tuck
I'm interested in a Mnice update: Did Brownie's silver in Moscow give him enough points to pass Face if those two teams were to meet in the Finals? I kinda had it in my head that Brownie needed the semifinal win over Brady or a Facey/Brownie Final would effect the World team nomination.

Tuck

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quote:

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Originally posted by
.... shrug shoulders... negative ice...

So sad but oh so true.

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Last edited by Alice on 02-02-15 at 04:29PM

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Alice-trying to makes shots across Zamboni ridges takes it to a whole new level. It's not fair if a rock in the house is completely unguarded yet still impossible to hit out. That's what makes the Red Square Classic a fun exhibition event but far from OOM point worthy.

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USCA Board Meeting TOMORROW -- attendance via webinar available:

http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Curling/...rectors-webinar

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quote:

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Originally posted by nom de broom
USCA Board Meeting TOMORROW -- attendance via webinar available:

http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Curling/...rectors-webinar

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JH
Go Phils, got my WS bet on you

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