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03-16-19 06:01PM
Tony Hladun is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Tony Hladun Find more posts by Tony Hladun Add Tony Hladun to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Tony Hladun
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Demonstration of "Sweeping Suggestion" Post

It was sad to see Canada lose to Korea today especially when the sweepers time and time again reached over the rock and swept the wrong side. To those who say you can't corner sweep just watch this game where there is a demonstration of how to do corner sweeping and how to do it wrong and the rubs and misses that result. Even if you believe in scratch sweeping (which I don't) then at least do the whole rock path and just one, and the wrong, side.

P.S. I did a search and look up "corner sweeping" in this article https://www.ontariocurlingcouncil.c...ue-of-brushing/ How soon we forget.

Last edited by Tony Hladun on 03-16-19 at 06:32PM

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03-19-19 04:11PM
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RockDoc
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The sweeping post you referred to is from 2011, which predates the events of the 2015-2016 season that exposed the effects of hair brushes and textured surface fabrics, and led to the sweeping summit where it was empirically shown that sweeping at a steep (e.g. 5 degree) angle was most effective for directional sweeping. This in in accordance with the scratch theory. I am not aware of any empirical evidence that corner sweeping is more effective that sweeping a a steep angle, although the motions are likely similar. We do know from several lines of empirical evidence that brushing materials that leave more scratches in the ice are more effective than those that leave fewer scratches in the ice at altering line. The best place to leave those scratches is where the running band will encounter them.

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03-20-19 10:06AM
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Watch Carey's two shots in the 7th end against Scotland. The first was swept on the wrong side and resulted in a rub and the second was swept on the wrong side and resulted in the missed run back. Forget the theory for a moment and just look at what's happening,

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03-20-19 03:08PM
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Watch from 1:31:30 of this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIaVGErCw9k

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04-01-19 01:46PM
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Tony Hladun
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Canada's men's sweeping good at Championships. They're sweeping the full face of the rock and not corner sweeping. But they're not perfect; Flasch gets too exuberant with Koe's rock at 12:00 of this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xEwHxZ4yBk and reaches over to sweep wrong side. Result is a missed takeout and 2 for the Chinese.

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04-03-19 09:56AM
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Deliverer
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quote:
Originally posted by Tony Hladun
Canada's men's sweeping good at Championships. They're sweeping the full face of the rock and not corner sweeping. But they're not perfect; Flasch gets too exuberant with Koe's rock at 12:00 of this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xEwHxZ4yBk and reaches over to sweep wrong side. Result is a missed takeout and 2 for the Chinese.


How come Benny, B.J, Kevin, Russ and Cheryl all failed to see that Flash was sweeping on the "wrong side" and that's why the takeout was missed?

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04-03-19 10:10AM
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Tony Hladun
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quote:
Originally posted by Deliverer


How come Benny, B.J, Kevin, Russ and Cheryl all failed to see that Flash was sweeping on the "wrong side" and that's why the takeout was missed?



You make a very good point and I admit all of those people have lots of experience. So I don't know why, but if I had to guess it's the myth of scratch sweeping which says it's the direction of the sweeping action and not the location (corner sweeping). What did you see?

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04-03-19 08:12PM
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Deliverer
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quote:
Originally posted by Tony Hladun


You make a very good point and I admit all of those people have lots of experience. So I don't know why, but if I had to guess it's the myth of scratch sweeping which says it's the direction of the sweeping action and not the location (corner sweeping). What did you see?



It's not so much what I saw...it's what I'd like to see.

Your conclusion(s) how Flasch's sweeping may or may not have affected that rock could be correct, but unless I actually saw a replay of that exact situation - where Flasch does not sweep - I don't believe there's any way of knowing if you are correct or not.

So at this juncture, if I had to decide who is correct between you and the six experienced, very knowledgeable curlers, all of whom failed to notice this egregious blunder, well... have a good night!

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04-03-19 10:37PM
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IN-OFF-FOR-2
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Hey Tony

As a conspiracy theorist, could you just be sniffing around a Canadian site for sweeping suggestions, as yours are out of whack. I dare say a gaggle of players, sweepers, coaches etc have a much better grasp on sweeping than anyone dropping in here. Looking for input on how to improve "Russian" sweeping. Or sweeping collusion? Best sweeping ever? Nobody sweeps better! Ever!

Before you jump, Alan, insert 1/2 sarcasm here.

C'Mon

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04-04-19 12:08AM
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Against Sweden, 7th end, Koe's last rock. Flasch is initially on the wrong side and seems to switch to the middle half way down (was that on purpose?). But is the damage done? Koe rubs and Sweden scores three.

Did it make a difference, can't tell, but did it help? Just look.

Better yet have someone throw T-line draws and on alternative shoots sweep alternative corners. I found about a one rock diameter difference and I'm not a pro sweeper. I know you think I'm a newbie and crazy, but just try it. But if it makes you feel better to just dump on me then go ahead.

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04-04-19 08:03AM
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dks
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I think Tony has some good points. First off I don’t know if the athletes are intentionally trying to corner sweep rather than they are just making physical mistakes (as in sometimes you aren’t perfect). The key is to cover the entire running surface of the rock as opposed to try and cover one side or the other. On the example discussed, Colton was on his “other” side. I don’t know if Koe’s team switches sldes for adding or reducing curl (Hebert normally sweeps on the the thrower’s left).

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04-06-19 02:56PM
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Great game...Canada beats Scotland in the qualification, but.. 9th end, BJ's last rock and Benny gets out over the wrong side.
Result is rock is too far to the right and the run back is missed on the left. Koe is forced to take one but they wanted a blank.

Last edited by Tony Hladun on 04-06-19 at 05:59PM

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04-06-19 05:08PM
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Tony - I need you to walk me through in more detail why you think the sweeping had anything to do with BJ's second in 9 missing low.

We even have the benefit of an overhead view of Hebert sweeping (and giving up at the hogline, as everyone realizes the shot is missed).

It looks to me like Hebert sweeps the entire running surface of the stone from hog to hog (as well as the ice beyond the far side of the stone, since he's got a longer stroke and he's trying to keep up with a peel-weight shot). Is your observation instead that he isn't sweeping the inside half of the stone (let's say), and so as a result, his sweeping is only half as effective, and thus he isn't able to hold the line?

I'm just confused as to what you think the outcome of "reaching over" is.

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04-06-19 06:30PM
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Tony Hladun
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nervous_times21, the video of the game isn't up on the Internet yet so I suggest you go have a look at my previous post concerning Flasch where there's a video to look at.

Here's my reasoning:
1. Rocks are swept so they travel farther.
2. If point 1 is true then sweeping the inside of a rock (back rotation side) will make it run straighter (curl less) and conversely sweeping the outside makes it curl more. To put it more simply..sweep the side you want to travel farther.
3. Corner sweeping affects the curl (and maybe that's why it was once outlawed).

So concerning Benny (if I recall correctly) he's on the inside of the stone and the call is for him to sweep. The current scratch sweeping theory says that will make the rock run straighter. But he reaches over and corner sweeps the outside of the rock which I say makes it curl more and the shot is missed. It sure didn't look to me as if he's sweeping the full width of the running path of the rock and I agree a pro peel is hard to keep up with. Once again, have a look at the Flasch sweeping and I'll post a link and comments if the Canada vs Scotland Qualification video is posted on line.

Last edited by Tony Hladun on 04-07-19 at 09:55AM

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04-08-19 10:49PM
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Here's the Canada versus Scotland Qualification game video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wY2fo5IUWw. Look at 2:04:15.

Too bad Canada lost the final but I never saw them incorrectly corner sweep in that game. Maybe they realised what was happening?

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04-09-19 09:22AM
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biterbar
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quote:
Originally posted by Tony Hladun
Here's the Canada versus Scotland Qualification game video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wY2fo5IUWw. Look at 2:04:15.

Too bad Canada lost the final but I never saw them incorrectly corner sweep in that game. Maybe they realised what was happening?



https://youtu.be/u0NCJEVJOYI

At 1:25 Canada sweeps the outside or over reaches the stone to hold it straight. Sweden does the same on the next stone. In fact that's how they all do it. I'm not going to question there methods.

__________________
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04-09-19 12:13PM
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Tony Hladun
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quote:
Originally posted by biterbar


https://youtu.be/u0NCJEVJOYI

At 1:25 Canada sweeps the outside or over reaches the stone to hold it straight. Sweden does the same on the next stone. In fact that's how they all do it. I'm not going to question there methods.



Those are good examples and I would say that's doing it right. To avoid confusion, it's the side of the rock path that is swept and not where the sweeper is that matters. In your examples the sweeping is on what I would call the correct side and my examples were of the wrong side. I had to use the "over reaching" to help the explanation and it probably causes confusion.

Last edited by Tony Hladun on 04-09-19 at 12:17PM

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