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| 10-15-15 06:44AM |
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shaqdaddy
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Sep 2015
Location: Toronto
Posts: 57 |
Itsjustagame has best take yet IMO. Appears BL needs to be separated from HL here. HL has a couple of years of success with no ice stories.
Lost here is the Gushue experiment of HOW he is using his sweepers.
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| 10-15-15 08:56AM |
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kprisolo
Knee-Slider
Registered: Jul 2015
Location: Plainfield CC
Posts: 2 |
Newbie curler weighting in a bit on this, though more as a physicist (not quitting my day job for curling anytime soon, much as I'd like). First, some boring background reading!
Per: dks
quote:
(sic) If you want to continue to use a wooden brush when alternative brushes are available then don't complain if you can't perform as well.
(sic) if brushing is intended to help make a shot, then why wouldn't you want to use the best equipment to help you? Would you use a thinner slider, tighter pants, heavier broom, uncomfortable gloves?
Per: "In the House" with Mike Fournier
quote:
(sic) I am not sure how a ban can work. We would have to ban types of synthetic heads? Or only certain materials? Would we have to play with brooms that only have a limited coarseness? Do we all have to back to hair brooms? Would it only be banned in competition? Only on tour?
Per: WCF Rules and Regulations, R10 (a) and (e)
quote:
(a) No player shall cause damage to the ice surface by means of equipment, hand prints, or body prints.
(e) A player may change the type of brush or synthetic broom at any time during a game, provided there is no delay. A player choosing to sweep with a corn broom must use only that style of broom during the entire game.
From what I can tell, the crux of the issue is over how much a player should be allowed to affect the ice surface as opposed to whether or not they are damaging it.
(Correct me if I'm wrong in the following) Corn brooms removed debris so the rock runs predictably, hair brooms remove the debris and the frost that has gathered (and the frost is arguably not the ice as it accumulates after the ice is "set" for the game), synthetics (insert your favored scientific argument here) the ice so the rocks can curl less and go a bit further. These new pads, which appear to take synthetics to the next level by being able to impart a directionality to the sweep (which seems to imply to me that the likely correct hypothesis of sweeping is the micro-scratching theory) and general ability to do more than "traditional" synthetics.
So, where's the line? Trouble is in the interpretation of "cause damage to the ice surface." Arguably, corn and hair brooms may be the only ones to fit this mold since they (pretty much) just remove debris and frost which were not part of the ice by default. And we have to accept that as much as we'd like to believe it isn't so, any and all synthetic brooms must cause a change in the ice to ultimately cause the change to a rock's path- there's no other way for them to do what they do. Whether it's heating the ice, or cause small cuts to it, or using the force, they all have some appreciable and semi-permanent effect on the ice for that game.
Thus the question isn't which brooms "damage" the ice (I think we can agree sledge hammers will) but to what degree of this change to the ice are we comfortable allowing before we say the ice is "damaged." The problem with this is it will be nigh impossible for people to all agree with a solid definition for this, so it may just be easier to bite the bullet and simply define what brooms (read: brush heads) are allowed. But we'd all probably be fooling ourselves to say nothing should be done as there must be some definition for this otherwise some authoritative body will have to rule on each and every new broom and brush
Whether it's anarchy that's chosen and no regulations, or going back to the stone age (I apologize immediately for this statement to everyone here who played with them- but I gotta have some fun with this) corn brooms and corn brooms only, or saying that all brush heads must fit within some parameters like having no directionality and be the same surface thickness of fibers (e.g. a circular pattern of x thickness) and then leaving it there for people to choose which is best from synth, corn, or hair with whatever that entails for their gameplan.
In the end, whatever line we draw will be an arbitrary one at best. One just hopes that line, whatever it may be, doesn't limit the possibility of maximum team performance and to a degree future broom head advances, while also making sure this game doesn't become one where none of us want to play it (crazy as that may sound to all of us).
tl;dr- Damage to the ice is arbitrary, and so will be any limit we end up placing. Though having a limit is probably a good idea in some shape or form.
That's my two cents anyway, and it's been interesting reading the ideas/discussion/debate/boxing match on this here and on the web.
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| 10-15-15 09:44AM |
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cvanymer
Knee-Slider
Registered: Jun 2013
Location: Aylmer Ontario
Posts: 1 |
Ah people are funny. All these brooms people are using can be used to straighten or make a rock curl. BP just made the broom they made to make a point, it's an unfair advantage to all the teams who don't have hardline brooms.
Gushue joined hardline this year after complaining that they are manipulating the ice.
Everyone wants them all the directional fabric banned because it's ruining the sport. "Just be close" shouldn't be a term for hits and run backs.
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| 10-15-15 10:21AM |
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dks
Hitting Paint
Registered: Oct 2012
Location:
Posts: 119 |
The debate on what brushing does to a curling rock is divided. One theory is that brushing warms the ice. Therefore the brusher closet to the rock reduces friction on the low side which allows the rock to maintain its current direction longer.
The second theory being discussed is that brushing "scratches" the low side of the rock and therefore increases friction and thus keeps or "even backs" up a rock.
On HL's website they claim the pad does not scratch the pebble but, polishes it.
As I stated in an earlier post, nothing has been actually proven one way or another, Having said that, just because you can't prove something doesn't mean it isn't so. Final point unless it can be proven that the new brushes damage the ice I say embrace the changes and the sport doesn't need more regulations.
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| 10-15-15 11:26AM |
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kprisolo
Knee-Slider
Registered: Jul 2015
Location: Plainfield CC
Posts: 2 |
quote:
Originally posted by fresca
clearly those games and slams that had hundreds of pics the last couple of years is evidence of ice shrads damaging the ice .. they never found any evidence of sand dirt etc - the brooms had to be responsible
in sailing competitions the olympics order 25 identical boats
nfl and in ANY PROFESSIONAL SPORT the balls, sticks , pucks , rocks , bats etc are equal - so should the brooms be - only fair
You may be on to something interesting. Curling is a unique sport because of the ability to affect a shot before it arrives to the target, and yet standardization is a key thing for all sports in some regard for this exact reason- to keep competition on a level playing field.
Looking to golf and baseball as examples which may be usable for curling, each have equipment that is standardized (wood bat of at least a certain length to weight ratio) and golf (standardized, or more accurately limited, size and types of faces) but both sports allow the athlete to use equipment that suits their needs, and golf more-so as it includes very different vendor products from one another. Thus there do exist parallel sports where standardization occurs while not limiting the athlete for their preference, but it also limits the competition to "fair" items (no corked or too light of bats, and not crazy large club faces).
Looking to what you and Mr. Fournier have said on the matter, this seems like a sensible solution for curling. Limit the brush heads allowed in competition to a select variety of types (corn, hair, synth) and engineering (types of fabric on synth). This would allow someone to navigate frosty conditions or competition ice at the higher levels, but also leave open the possibility of testing new brush heads and brooms when not on the tour. From there the WCF, CCA, USCA, and other alphabet soups can say "we allow these standard items for broom heads."
As to what those standard items are is a whole other matter and goes back somewhat to what I was talking about earlier, but I think this idea of "standardization for competition" is a sound one for the sport and is something to work off of.
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| 10-15-15 12:26PM |
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VanillaIce
Administrator
Registered: Nov 2005
Location: Plymouth, MN
Posts: 154 |
Our Findings
We are a relatively new HL customer. We heard aw things in the rumor mill last year about using one HL one standard broom or one newer HL and one that had some play on it. What I can tell you after some very specific testing is that without a doubt you can take a brand new HL head and back a rock up. We threw a normal weight TO multiple times without sweeping on a spot that had roughly 6" of curl. Then threw the exact same shot on the same line and swept hard out of the hand with a brand new HL... the rock backed up (fell) 10 to 12 inches. This was a consistent result in every test we ran. But it had to be a new or relatively new HL head. It seems that once they are used a bit the effect goes away or is much smaller. The thing that is most problematic though is the fact that when it happened, it lasted for more than one shot on the same line.... a rock thrown in the same path of one that was swept and fell, also fell back with no sweeping. Eventually the path would normalize but only after 3 or 4 stones.
I have no doubt that the BP brooms, with an even more aggressive fabric, would have a greater and longer lasting effect.
I would suggest that you try the same tests for yourself as I really didn't believe it myself until I actually saw it with my own eyes over and over again.
As an FYI our team is ready and willing to comply with whatever decision is made as we think it is in the best interest of the game.
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| 10-15-15 12:40PM |
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curlky
Drawmaster
Registered: Oct 2013
Location:
Posts: 559 |
Not to nit pick, but I want to clear up a few arguments that I keep on reading. Getting things accurate is very important in this discussion. I will also preface this by saying I have no idea if the new style pads truly are a problem or not, and suggest more scientific study should be done.
quote:
Originally posted by Itsjustagame
EQ pads with their aluminum foil were designed to create more heat, which flattens the pebble.
False, the EQ pad does not generate more heat. The pad generates the same amount of heat. The aluminum foil directs the heat at the ice rather then being absorbed by the broom. So its the same net heat, but the ice is getting a higher percentage of the heat
quote:
Originally posted by Itsjustagame
Hardline brooms have been on the market for 5 years now. McEwen and Carruthers have been using them since last season. All of a sudden, they scratch the ice, flatten the pebble and allow you to steer the rock like in a Playstation game?
You are seemingly trying to imply that the product life and no prior complaints means that the HL is OK. This is a logical fallacy. Just because they have been on the market, does not mean that they haven't been capable of magic. 2 other arguments that could be taken from the same 5 year information but have a drastically different conclusion are:
1.) Since they are so new, and new products are slow to be adopted, no one has noticed until the user base has grown to the point where it is seen all of the time. Now that more people see it, a weird shot here or there is no longer considered a fluke or luck, rather a trend with merit that should be investigated
2.) Since they are so new, it has taken curlers some time to learn how to fully take advantage of the full skill set created by the new technology. Now that some time has been spent, the "magical powers" can now be used to create a new way to curl and sweep.
Those two conclusions paint an entirely different picture. As I said before, I don't know the answer, just think that we need to really think about facts, and be careful as to what conclusions and pseudo-facts that are being made.
(And Itsjustagame, sorry that both of these quotes are from you. I have seen the same basic thing from lots of people, and I am not trying to challenge you directly. Your quotes were just easy to copy and paste.)
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| 10-15-15 12:53PM |
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Phil_D
Drawmaster
Registered: May 2014
Location: Joliet, IL
Posts: 629 |
ICYMI: 20+ top teams have signed an agreement. I started a thread about it here.
__________________
Recreational curler & resident armchair curler at Windy City Curling Club.
Co-host of the NerdCurl podcast & occasional blogger.
http://www.nerdcurl.com
Last edited by Phil_D on 10-15-15 at 12:56PM
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| 10-15-15 01:07PM |
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OrangeKing
Knee-Slider
Registered: Oct 2015
Location:
Posts: 8 |
I haven't seen this explicitly stated anywhere: were the pads that caused this to come to a boil the new EQ+ heads (which come with BP's new "LiteSpeed" broom), or an even newer/experimental pad issued to a few teams? The fact that Howard said his team will be only using the older BP brooms/pads makes me think that the EQ+ pads were the ones in question, but nobody seems to be going so far as to name names.
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| 10-15-15 01:10PM |
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shaqdaddy
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Sep 2015
Location: Toronto
Posts: 57 |
Guess we all need to know what brands use directional material.
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| 10-15-15 04:50PM |
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Decafe157
Knee-Slider
Registered: Mar 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 6 |
I curled against a famous Ottawa based curler yesterday in our cash league and they were using these broom heads. After witnessing these brooms in action first hand, I fully support banning this technology not only at the elite level, but also for club curling. They make the thrower of the rock unnecessary and can literally guide the rock anywhere that they wanted. Examples of this that I witnessed and they confessed to doing with these brooms included:
1) The lead's rock was called to be top twelve and was heavy and was judged to be heading to the back twelve foot by the time it reached the second hog line. The sweepers starting sweeping in a motion to create more friction in the path of the rock in order to actually slow it down and it stopped top twelve as desired.
2) A board weight takeout was released quite inside of the target broom and was crashing onto the guard. One sweeper was then instructed to sweep to make it fall, and the rock fell at least 2 feet within five strokes and ended up hitting the target stone on the outside and almost rolling out of the house after it was beyond a doubt going to crash on a guard.
3) We had a stone that was completely buried at the side of the house. The second was attempting to hit the stone and threw normal weight and was a foot and a half outside of the target broom. By the second hogline the rock was no where near the guard and under normal circumstances should have missed the rock in the rings by a good foot. One sweeper then started to sweep to make the rock curl and almost immediately the rock went sideways and ended up hitting the buried rock.
Also, we had several rocks pick on us when we tried to follow the same path they used when sweeping with these brooms on steroids. They must cut up the pebble on the ice. I hope I am not giving the impression that we were being sore losers, but these brooms are so bad for curling. If these brooms become commonplace I will stop playing. It was not fun to be playing against a team using these brooms and it is very bad for the game. It removes skill and finesse from curling.
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| 10-15-15 04:56PM |
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shaqdaddy
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Sep 2015
Location: Toronto
Posts: 57 |
What brooms? Hardline, balance Plus?
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| 10-15-15 07:02PM |
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shaqdaddy
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Sep 2015
Location: Toronto
Posts: 57 |
To my eye, a lot of valid issues raised, worth reading.
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| 10-15-15 07:54PM |
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alex
Swing Artist
Registered: Sep 2011
Location: Quesnel
Posts: 420 |
Agree with reading the Hardline press release. I still don't understand how you can slow down a rock by sweeping, though.
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| 10-15-15 08:40PM |
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JustAnotherHack
Swing Artist
Registered: Dec 2012
Location: BC, Ontario (and a few other places too...)
Posts: 268 |
quote:
Originally posted by alex
Agree with reading the Hardline press release. I still don't understand how you can slow down a rock by sweeping, though.
I haven't witnessed it yet, but if I had to guess... it has to do with the direction/angle you are sweeping along the line the rock is traveling. But that's just a guess, and I'm thinking that was just with those goofy Balance Plus EQ+ brooms. I haven't really seen it with the Hardline brooms previously.
Also, corner sweeping may add to the effect (including causing rocks to fall and things like that).
I just hope that if Hardline is going to be put under the scope, then we need to look at the Norway Pads and the EQ Pads as well (and of course the new EQ+ brooms). If we're going to come up with some sort of new standard, we do it for everyone.
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| 10-15-15 08:44PM |
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CURLING NUTS
Swing Artist
Registered: Nov 2004
Location:
Posts: 219 |
So buy those broom heads, use them. You won't be competitive unless you do. Simple as that!
Every sport known to man has had it's equipment evolve the last century. Hockey, golf, baseball, tennis, football to name a few. If you don't stay up to date with equipment changes, you lose.
Imagine using a rink rat or corn broom in this day and age?
The only proviso I would give is, if it can be determined and proven that the brush head damages the ice..then that's a no-no. If the brush head prevents the duplicate shot from being made on the subsequent shot down the same piece of ice, then that's an unfair advantage.
Last edited by CURLING NUTS on 10-15-15 at 08:48PM
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| 10-16-15 12:39AM |
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jamcan
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
Posts: 2340 |
Three threads on basically the same topic?
OK, on behalf of the silent CCA and WCF I hereby decree,in their notable absence on the issue, that all brushes hair and synthetic are banned from use until they are tested. Which should take about a decade or so at the rate things are going.
Meanwhile, you're all going to have to use corn, smoke while sweeping, stand up before you cross the hog line, play 10 end games 3 times per day over 4 days and wear knitted sweaters.
So break out the deerskin gloves and bandaids. That'll make real athletes out of you boys and girls in no time.
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| 10-16-15 03:51AM |
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JustAnotherHack
Swing Artist
Registered: Dec 2012
Location: BC, Ontario (and a few other places too...)
Posts: 268 |
quote:
Originally posted by jamcan
Three threads on basically the same topic?
OK, on behalf of the silent CCA and WCF I hereby decree,in their notable absence on the issue, that all brushes hair and synthetic are banned from use until they are tested. Which should take about a decade or so at the rate things are going.
Meanwhile, you're all going to have to use corn, smoke while sweeping, stand up before you cross the hog line, play 10 end games 3 times per day over 4 days and wear knitted sweaters.
So break out the deerskin gloves and bandaids. That'll make real athletes out of you boys and girls in no time.
I'm surprised it's only 3 threads. This is the biggest controversy in curling since... well, shoot, I can't think of another.
I'm thinking about pulling out an old Rink Rat I inherited... I've got the knitted sweater and the gloves and stuff to cover the impending blisters on my hands... Should be good!
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| 10-16-15 09:31AM |
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Decafe157
Knee-Slider
Registered: Mar 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 6 |
quote:
Originally posted by Decafe157
I curled against a famous Ottawa based curler yesterday in our cash league and they were using these broom heads. After witnessing these brooms in action first hand, I fully support banning this technology not only at the elite level, but also for club curling. They make the thrower of the rock unnecessary and can literally guide the rock anywhere that they wanted. Examples of this that I witnessed and they confessed to doing with these brooms included:
1) The lead's rock was called to be top twelve and was heavy and was judged to be heading to the back twelve foot by the time it reached the second hog line. The sweepers starting sweeping in a motion to create more friction in the path of the rock in order to actually slow it down and it stopped top twelve as desired.
2) A board weight takeout was released quite inside of the target broom and was crashing onto the guard. One sweeper was then instructed to sweep to make it fall, and the rock fell at least 2 feet within five strokes and ended up hitting the target stone on the outside and almost rolling out of the house after it was beyond a doubt going to crash on a guard.
3) We had a stone that was completely buried at the side of the house. The second was attempting to hit the stone and threw normal weight and was a foot and a half outside of the target broom. By the second hogline the rock was no where near the guard and under normal circumstances should have missed the rock in the rings by a good foot. One sweeper then started to sweep to make the rock curl and almost immediately the rock went sideways and ended up hitting the buried rock.
Also, we had several rocks pick on us when we tried to follow the same path they used when sweeping with these brooms on steroids. They must cut up the pebble on the ice. I hope I am not giving the impression that we were being sore losers, but these brooms are so bad for curling. If these brooms become commonplace I will stop playing. It was not fun to be playing against a team using these brooms and it is very bad for the game. It removes skill and finesse from curling.
The team in question was using the controversial Balance Plus broom head from Toronto.
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| 10-16-15 11:23AM |
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brycejmcewen
Swing Artist
Registered: Jul 2005
Location: Winnipeg, MB
Posts: 211 |
So who's on the ground in Portage to give us an update on the sticks the teams are using?
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| 10-16-15 11:33AM |
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OrangeKing
Knee-Slider
Registered: Oct 2015
Location:
Posts: 8 |
quote:
Originally posted by Decafe157
The team in question was using the controversial Balance Plus broom head from Toronto.
Which brings me back to my original question: was that the new head that comes with their Litespeed broom (the EQ+ head, which is definitely very different from the standard EQ fabric), or did BP give their teams something different for Toronto? I know there are a couple people who care about this at our club, as they bought the Litespeeds but aren't sure how they'd feel about them if they have one of the 'controversial' heads.
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| 10-16-15 04:04PM |
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Phil_D
Drawmaster
Registered: May 2014
Location: Joliet, IL
Posts: 629 |
New post from Don Landry, including video of the Balance Plus "Blackhead" in action:
https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/e...-174550399.html
One line from the article stands out to me:
"The Blackhead broom heads, which BalancePlus claims were crafted in order to prove a point about how far curling technology can go and were never going to get to market..."
So Balance Plus makes a broom head that they know will cause an uproar, just to "prove a point." In the aftermath, Hardline gets roped in with the new Balance Plus head. Coincidence?
I'm really trying to stay objective here, but it's getting harder and harder to do that. Something definitely doesn't smell right.
__________________
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Co-host of the NerdCurl podcast & occasional blogger.
http://www.nerdcurl.com
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