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04-23-18 08:14PM
jamcan is offline Click Here to See the Profile for jamcan Click here to Send jamcan a Private Message Find more posts by jamcan Add jamcan to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
jamcan
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I guess I need to be more specific. the entry fee I am talking about is your starting level-zones, districts, whatever-entry fee.

in B.C. its just under $400/team (that includes the CCA gouge fee known as your player card). the penalty fee I refer to is an additional charge, tacked on by your provincial association to any team with an out of province athlete.

This is separate and has nothing to do with any other event entry fee.

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04-23-18 08:36PM
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jamcam, that is what I was looking for, not the complicated answer I was being given.

So under your proposal, answer #2, you are stating that the team with a free agent should not pay $400 like 4 provincial players, rather they should pay $4400?

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04-23-18 08:58PM
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10 years ago people complained about mens teams parachuting into zones here in Ontario. Now, no one bats an eye at mens teams cherry picking the best clubs to play out of now. I personally feel it will be the same for residency rules. Myself, I would prefer the best players being able to play together if they want and don't think it matters that they can parachute into a province. Competition will level out. Club curlers are not going to be competing for national championships anymore (they really haven't for a number of years anyways). So any measures to reduce the big team effect is years too late and pointless. Let the teams for and play where they are willing to pay the entry fees and club fees. No residency rules at all.

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04-23-18 11:22PM
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quote:
Originally posted by curlky
jamcam, that is what I was looking for, not the complicated answer I was being given.

So under your proposal, answer #2, you are stating that the team with a free agent should not pay $400 like 4 provincial players, rather they should pay $4400?



That's correct. an additional 'out of province player fee' tacked on to the regular entry fee.

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04-23-18 11:26PM
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jamcan
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quote:
Originally posted by SooCurler
10 years ago people complained about mens teams parachuting into zones here in Ontario. Now, no one bats an eye at mens teams cherry picking the best clubs to play out of now. I personally feel it will be the same for residency rules. Myself, I would prefer the best players being able to play together if they want and don't think it matters that they can parachute into a province. Competition will level out. Club curlers are not going to be competing for national championships anymore (they really haven't for a number of years anyways). So any measures to reduce the big team effect is years too late and pointless. Let the teams for and play where they are willing to pay the entry fees and club fees. No residency rules at all.




This has zero to do with club curlers. it's about penalizing those who ignore the tons of local talent and thus hinder the development of other players.

The rules currently allow one player so it can't be stopped. but it shouldn't be, IMO, for free.

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04-23-18 11:37PM
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curlky
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quote:
Originally posted by jamcan


That's correct. an additional 'out of province player fee' tacked on to the regular entry fee.



Thanks for clarifying. Now that I have the info, I will give my opinion and reasoning, and then my thoughts on why I do not like your penalty approach. I would say that I would be against any type of fee as it would discriminate against those who are poor. There are many reasons why a free agent should be allowed without penalty, such as living on a border, being a part time student and part time employee in an area, or even being a nomadic employee (someone who travels to find seasonal work such as at a ski resort in winter and farm in summer). This list is huge. There would be almost no way to fairly come up with a rule that does not have logical ways to skirt the system. If you insisted on a fee, then perhaps something like $50 or a token amount.

It is my guess that you feel that with a $4K fee you will stop the behavior. My guess is that it would not stop anything for people who are wealthy, only those who are poor. Plus the knife slices both directions. For every 1 curler your areas exports, you can import another. Ultimately it is a zero sum game that way.

If you want to end free agency, then tie players to a zone, or install a waiting period. By this, I am suggesting that once you play in a playdown, you must wait 12 months before you can play in another one. Or maybe you make it 24 months. If you have freedom to install these fines, you can use the waiting period and it will be even more effective, as rich people could not get around it.

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04-24-18 03:37AM
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On The Nose
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quote:
Originally posted by SooCurler
10 years ago people complained about mens teams parachuting into zones here in Ontario. Now, no one bats an eye at mens teams cherry picking the best clubs to play out of now. I personally feel it will be the same for residency rules. Myself, I would prefer the best players being able to play together if they want and don't think it matters that they can parachute into a province. Competition will level out. Club curlers are not going to be competing for national championships anymore (they really haven't for a number of years anyways). So any measures to reduce the big team effect is years too late and pointless. Let the teams for and play where they are willing to pay the entry fees and club fees. No residency rules at all.

If your suggestion is to also abolish the representation of provinces/territories, then your model makes sense (although I, personally, don't agree with it).
But if you are saying that there should be no residency rules, while still playing the National Championships (Brier, Scotties) under provincial and territorial representations (Team Manitoba, Team PEI, etc.), then what you say makes no sense at all. If there are no residency rules, and it matters not where players are from, then it's completely ridiculous to have teams representing provinces and territories. It would be like the Winnipeg Jets playing out of Halifax, and still being named the Winnipeg Jets.

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04-24-18 11:47AM
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quote:
Originally posted by On The Nose

If your suggestion is to also abolish the representation of provinces/territories, then your model makes sense (although I, personally, don't agree with it).
But if you are saying that there should be no residency rules, while still playing the National Championships (Brier, Scotties) under provincial and territorial representations (Team Manitoba, Team PEI, etc.), then what you say makes no sense at all. If there are no residency rules, and it matters not where players are from, then it's completely ridiculous to have teams representing provinces and territories. It would be like the Winnipeg Jets playing out of Halifax, and still being named the Winnipeg Jets.



I don't see why you think it would be odd. The team can form and play in the province and club of their choosing. If all four are from BC and they join and play for a club in Peterborough Ontario what's the problem? Firstly its a moot concern since no one is going to do that. At most teams will keep to the territories that work for them from a travel perspective. Second, they will be playing out of an Ontario club therefore establishing themselves as being form Ontario. Whether they are from Ontario themselves makes no difference. The hockey analogy doesn't work. It is actually the Winnipeg jets playing games in Halifax and calling themselves the Halifax Jets while all the players live in Winnipeg during the off season.

I would love to see a cohesive argument for residency rules in the first place. If we concede that protecting club teams is a non-starter, then allowing teams to parachute into the province isn't a concern. The next argument I saw was that it prevents local talent from being used by local star teams. This is also a non-starter. The WCT level teams aren't a training ground for local talent. Teams should be allowed to form as they see fit and not be forced to take on lesser players to meet artificial training quotas.

So what other reasons are there for residency rules?

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04-24-18 08:19PM
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jamcan
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quote:
Originally posted by curlky


Thanks for clarifying. Now that I have the info, I will give my opinion and reasoning, and then my thoughts on why I do not like your penalty approach. I would say that I would be against any type of fee as it would discriminate against those who are poor. There are many reasons why a free agent should be allowed without penalty, such as living on a border, being a part time student and part time employee in an area, or even being a nomadic employee (someone who travels to find seasonal work such as at a ski resort in winter and farm in summer). This list is huge. There would be almost no way to fairly come up with a rule that does not have logical ways to skirt the system. If you insisted on a fee, then perhaps something like $50 or a token amount.

It is my guess that you feel that with a $4K fee you will stop the behavior. My guess is that it would not stop anything for people who are wealthy, only those who are poor. Plus the knife slices both directions. For every 1 curler your areas exports, you can import another. Ultimately it is a zero sum game that way.

If you want to end free agency, then tie players to a zone, or install a waiting period. By this, I am suggesting that once you play in a playdown, you must wait 12 months before you can play in another one. Or maybe you make it 24 months. If you have freedom to install these fines, you can use the waiting period and it will be even more effective, as rich people could not get around it.



Your 'zero-sum' theory is based on the presumption of equal player transfers which, as anyone can see has not happened (who left BC when John Morris parachuted here?).

And the idea of a $4000.00 is directly with rich teams in mind. They are the teams who currently parachute players because they already have more money than poor teams who don't bring in players. So why on earth would you have a low fee?

Poorer teams would get some measure of protection with the deterrent of a high fee to the rich and even if they pay, then the money goes to a decent cause.

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04-24-18 09:03PM
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IN-OFF-FOR-2
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quote:
Originally posted by jamcan


Your 'zero-sum' theory is based on the presumption of equal player transfers which, as anyone can see has not happened (who left BC when John Morris parachuted here?).

And the idea of a $4000.00 is directly with rich teams in mind. They are the teams who currently parachute players because they already have more money than poor teams who don't bring in players. So why on earth would you have a low fee?

Poorer teams would get some measure of protection with the deterrent of a high fee to the rich and even if they pay, then the money goes to a decent cause.




I've said it before and I'm not the only one to say it again..

John Morris is the best example as it applies to BEFORE the one player allowed. Cheater extraordinaire.. BC curl along with Curling Canada both in Cahoots and all for illegal player, paid by curl bc to prevent BC from going into relegation. If either claim innocence I call BS. Both entities knew full well exactly what was going on...and where was Alberta Curling association in all this. Why didn't they call BS knowing John was a full time fireman in Alberta, How is it possible to live and curl FULL TIME IN BC? The biggest farce by far EVER with fake residency. He never lived in BC, never worked in BC, never had a year long paycheck from BC, never had a drivers license from BC, never had a paid rental from BC......yet they all "let it go" for 2 YEARS!!!!!!!!!! Wink wink nudge nudge. Terrible beginning of the end.

It starts with one, how long until they make it 2?

Last edited by IN-OFF-FOR-2 on 04-24-18 at 09:38PM

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04-24-18 10:06PM
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curlky
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jamcan, you missed most of my point. a large sum of money is not a deterrant to those well funded and/or rich. Those people can pay the large fee no problems. You need to decide if you think the fee is a deterrant, or if it is just a revenue grab. If you want it to be a revenue grab, sure go ahead. But as a deterrent, it will be 100% ineffective except for the poor. So all a large fee does is disproportionately take away options from the poor, yet does nothing to truly prevent the issue which is making you mad

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04-25-18 01:35AM
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alex
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Wasn't the Bodnarchuk rink a bigger case of fraudulent BC residence? Dale Duguid and a brother of Kevin Park were not BC residents although they sort of qualified. However they didn't win so not as big a story.

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04-25-18 05:47AM
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On The Nose
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quote:
Originally posted by SooCurler
I don't see why you think it would be odd.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SooCurler
I would love to see a cohesive argument for residency rules in the first place.
So what other reasons are there for residency rules?


Again, as I stated in my first post in this thread (one of the first 5 or 10 posts), if curling is to hold a National Championship (Brier, Scotties) pitting the provinces and territories against each other, then the players who represent said provinces and territories need be from the province/territory they are representing for the tournament to have any credibility at all.

Otherwise, it's like Canadians playing for the Korean National hockey team - just because they've lived in South Korea for a few years. If they win a game, is it truly Korea who won, if there are 8 or 10 Canadians on the team? Of course not - it is, in truth, a Korean/Canadian team, not a Korean team.
Same goes for the curling National Championships here in Canada - the idea is to pit the provinces and territories against each other. If it matters not where the players are from, and only matters which club they 'play out of' (on paper), then the entire notion of provinces and territories playing against each other for the title is fraudulent, and is completely thrown out the window.

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Last edited by On The Nose on 04-25-18 at 06:49AM

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