Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Hill Valley
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Bob Weeks points out a recent article regarding the soul of curling.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2015/0.../#__federated=1

Clearly the elite level of curling is changing. The article points out the Olympics, TV coverage and event purses as primary drivers. Most all curling countries have adjusted their approaches on how and who they support at the elite level to increase their performance results on the international stage.

What does that mean to us and our curling experience? The 99% of curlers who don't play at todays elite level. I still play on my same team, same league, same competitors, same inside jokes, same 50/50 chance of making the shot, same enjoyment.

For me, these changes at the elite level haven't changed my curling experience. However, they have changed my curling spectator experience. More opportunities to watch curling on TV. Skill and performances are fascinating. Commentary on strategy is educational. I have my favorite players and teams. Heroes, villains. Great stuff.

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Very well said CURLogic. Where things have changed I think is for the x% of curlers [do not know what that number is] who fancied themselves as semi-competitive curlers but who do not have the time/money to devote significant time to the game. With the top curlers now elite teams, as opposed to very good teams, that x% no longer has any opportunity to chase their dreams, however unlikely they were. Instead, they find themselves back with what CURLogic called the 99%. I hope they will still be able to enjoy the game as much as before this new world of curling.

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Curling needs to learn from tennis, golf, etc...popular sports that thrive with both amateurs and elite players. Neither population diminishes the other.

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quote:

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Originally posted by RockDoc
Curling needs to learn from tennis, golf, etc...popular sports that thrive with both amateurs and elite players. Neither population diminishes the other.

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Curling is turning into a professional sport at the top level and I have no issues with it. Growing up the only curling on tv was the brier and Scotties and now look at how much is on tv.Club entries into top events might be down but if enough juniors continue to come up and enter the elite field than curling will be fine. Look at any other major sport new talent comes form juniors not out of the average joes. Elite teams pretty much turning into pros isn't going to change club curling or at least it shouldn't. Club level will always be sociable and carry on like it always has been. After all the sport has survived since the 16th century. Club curlers jealous of the elite teams is ridiculous. It would be like beer league hockey players being jealous of the nhl players for being successful in their sport. Instead of resenting the elite curlers we should support them and admire what they have accomplished.

Last edited by mcgregorm89 on 02-17-15 at 03:24PM

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quote:

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Originally posted by mcgregorm89
Curling is turning into a professional sport at the top level and I have no issues with it. Growing up the only curling on tv was the brier and Scotties and now look at how much is on tv.Club entries into top events might be down but if enough juniors continue to come up and enter the elite field than curling will be fine. Look at any other major sport new talent comes form juniors not out of the average joes. Elite teams pretty much turning into pros isn't going to change club curling or at least it shouldn't. Club level will always be sociable and carry on like it always has been. After all the sport has survived since the 16th century. Club curlers jealous of the elite teams is ridiculous. It would be like beer league hockey players being jealous of the nhl players for being successful in their sport. Instead of resenting the elite curlers we should support them and admire what they have accomplished.

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quote:

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Originally posted by mcgregorm89
It would be like beer league hockey players being jealous of the nhl players for being successful in their sport. Instead of resenting the elite curlers we should support them and admire what they have accomplished.

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quote:

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Originally posted by VAcurler


Have you played in a beer league lately?

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by VAcurler


Have you played in a beer league lately? [/QUOTE

No I have not played in a hockey beer league lately but my point is there. If a beer league player thinks he could be a nhl star or is jealous they need a reality check.

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quote:

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Originally posted by fresca
HUGE difference - hockey is expanding and 1000s make a great living -- curling is waining and a few clubs in each province close every year for the last 50 years

in 1956 there were 283 curling clubs in manitoba - now 107 - closed in wpg - civic cal ( rocks went to australia) eaton, grain x , maple leaf(jewish) , strathcona( many champions), thisle( fire), winter club ) , valor road ..... ----Victoria cc sold this month

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quote:

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Originally posted by fresca
HUGE difference - hockey is expanding and 1000s make a great living -- curling is waining and a few clubs in each province close every year for the last 50 years

in 1956 there were 283 curling clubs in manitoba - now 107 - closed in wpg - civic cal ( rocks went to australia) eaton, grain x , maple leaf(jewish) , strathcona( many champions), thisle( fire), winter club ) , valor road ..... ----Victoria cc sold this month

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Curling is, I believe, the first sport that has gone "professional" in the Modern Olympic Era (ie after pros were allowed into the Olympics, ~1988 or so).

When the Olympics, which are seen as the pinnacle of athletic competition, were an amateurs only thing, Joe Wannabe could have a shot at it.

Curling had that amateur mindset, and some (many) liked it. They had a Dream.

Now, however, the taint of the Olympics is pulling the sport professional. Yes, it is undoubtedly good for the 1% of the sport's players, they are going to be better over the years. Yes, it's probably good for the majority of the fans, they will get to see better curling. Good things all around.

Who it *isn't* good for is the curlers who started the game in the amateur era, and harbored that Dream. Who it's *really bad for* is those curlers who aren't in the 1%, but are in the 2-10% range...they were the ones who maybe had a chance...but now...no.

Was it an unrealistic dream? Oh sure, for 99.999% of curlers, a Worlds was never going to happen...but it was still *possible* dammit, and there was value in the steps along the way...a Purple Heart meant something, even if you went 0-11 at the Brier, you were still the best from your province. Even just getting a spot at the Provincials was meaningful, you were still in the race. Heck, in some areas, just winning your *club* was an accomplishment.

Now, unless you can get support to be on the road 24 weeks out of the year, throw 30,000 stones a year, and have a staff of coaches, sure, you can enter the playdowns, but you're never gonna get anywhere...and, to be honest, the professionals would really rather not play you...because although they have all of the advantages that come with experience...upsets do still happen.

Witness the furor when a "star" curler was recently knocked out at a level below where he "should" have been competing...the press wasn't full of praise for the team that got past him, David over Goliath style, it was full of "We need to change the system, to protect the professionals".

Hell, witness the game in the USA, where unless you're in that top 1%, you don't even have the pipe dream anymore...sure you can qualify for the Nationals...but unless you already accumulated bunches of points on the road...even if God Himself were to bestow upon you the finger of victory...that pro team over there is going to Worlds, not you.

IN 30 years, none of this will matter, the game will be fully professionalized, and the split between Rec League and "Real" curling will be set in stone...if you weren't good enough to be scouted and signed to a team by your 16th birthday, you'll be condemned to Beer League and "I coulda been" status...there will be fewer mid level curlers...there will be probably about the same number of people who really are more concerned with the broomstacking than the curling...those folks have always been content and always will...but the *sport* will suffer in that midlevel.

There may still be a Brier and a Scotties...Bowling still has National Championships that aren't tied to the PBA, hell...amateur baseball has a whole World playoffs thing set up...but no one will be watching. They'll be watching the Alberta Stonechuckers curling against the Vancouver Housecrashers...and memories of when there was a Dream will be on the level we see the old Black and White highlight films of the 50's and 60's Briars..."Wow...the game really was different back then, wasn't it?"

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quote:

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Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
Curling is, I believe, the first sport that has gone "professional" in the Modern Olympic Era (ie after pros were allowed into the Olympics, ~1988 or so).

When the Olympics, which are seen as the pinnacle of athletic competition, were an amateurs only thing, Joe Wannabe could have a shot at it.

Curling had that amateur mindset, and some (many) liked it. They had a Dream.

Now, however, the taint of the Olympics is pulling the sport professional. Yes, it is undoubtedly good for the 1% of the sport's players, they are going to be better over the years. Yes, it's probably good for the majority of the fans, they will get to see better curling. Good things all around.

Who it *isn't* good for is the curlers who started the game in the amateur era, and harbored that Dream. Who it's *really bad for* is those curlers who aren't in the 1%, but are in the 2-10% range...they were the ones who maybe had a chance...but now...no.

Was it an unrealistic dream? Oh sure, for 99.999% of curlers, a Worlds was never going to happen...but it was still *possible* dammit, and there was value in the steps along the way...a Purple Heart meant something, even if you went 0-11 at the Brier, you were still the best from your province. Even just getting a spot at the Provincials was meaningful, you were still in the race. Heck, in some areas, just winning your *club* was an accomplishment.

Now, unless you can get support to be on the road 24 weeks out of the year, throw 30,000 stones a year, and have a staff of coaches, sure, you can enter the playdowns, but you're never gonna get anywhere...and, to be honest, the professionals would really rather not play you...because although they have all of the advantages that come with experience...upsets do still happen.

Witness the furor when a "star" curler was recently knocked out at a level below where he "should" have been competing...the press wasn't full of praise for the team that got past him, David over Goliath style, it was full of "We need to change the system, to protect the professionals".

Hell, witness the game in the USA, where unless you're in that top 1%, you don't even have the pipe dream anymore...sure you can qualify for the Nationals...but unless you already accumulated bunches of points on the road...even if God Himself were to bestow upon you the finger of victory...that pro team over there is going to Worlds, not you.

IN 30 years, none of this will matter, the game will be fully professionalized, and the split between Rec League and "Real" curling will be set in stone...if you weren't good enough to be scouted and signed to a team by your 16th birthday, you'll be condemned to Beer League and "I coulda been" status...there will be fewer mid level curlers...there will be probably about the same number of people who really are more concerned with the broomstacking than the curling...those folks have always been content and always will...but the *sport* will suffer in that midlevel.

There may still be a Brier and a Scotties...Bowling still has National Championships that aren't tied to the PBA, hell...amateur baseball has a whole World playoffs thing set up...but no one will be watching. They'll be watching the Alberta Stonechuckers curling against the Vancouver Housecrashers...and memories of when there was a Dream will be on the level we see the old Black and White highlight films of the 50's and 60's Briars..."Wow...the game really was different back then, wasn't it?"

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Look at the growth of curling around the world-please. When was the last time that a Norwegian men's rink wasn't wearing "OMG" pants? How about Russia & China? In the history of women's curling there have only been 2 women's rinks to represent either country. I wonder how many members actually curl at the Harbin Club in Northern China? For a country that large, you'd think that there would maybe be at least 2 clubs.

If Canada is so intent on making sure that they win every single year, then they should be prepared to do 3 things:

1. Simply appoint a national team to play together every year until they either lose or die of old age,
2. Prepare to watch international curling go the way of women's hockey-only much, much faster,
3. Assist in the sale of real estate as club after club closes-especially in the major cities (does anybody remember The Terrace, Humber Highland, Avonlea and the Boulevard Clubs in Toronto? More than 50 sheets of curling ice no longer exist).

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jimbobogie
Look at the growth of curling around the world-please. When was the last time that a Norwegian men's rink wasn't wearing "OMG" pants? How about Russia & China? In the history of women's curling there have only been 2 women's rinks to represent either country. I wonder how many members actually curl at the Harbin Club in Northern China? For a country that large, you'd think that there would maybe be at least 2 clubs.

If Canada is so intent on making sure that they win every single year, then they should be prepared to do 3 things:

1. Simply appoint a national team to play together every year until they either lose or die of old age,
2. Prepare to watch international curling go the way of women's hockey-only much, much faster,
3. Assist in the sale of real estate as club after club closes-especially in the major cities (does anybody remember The Terrace, Humber Highland, Avonlea and the Boulevard Clubs in Toronto? More than 50 sheets of curling ice no longer exist).

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jimbobogie
Look at the growth of curling around the world-please. When was the last time that a Norwegian men's rink wasn't wearing "OMG" pants? How about Russia & China? In the history of women's curling there have only been 2 women's rinks to represent either country. I wonder how many members actually curl at the Harbin Club in Northern China? For a country that large, you'd think that there would maybe be at least 2 clubs.

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Gerry-thanx for the Chinese update-I could only find 2 clubs listed on Wikipedia...I wonder how many members there are in Beijing? You'd think that in a city that large the club should be able o produce some real "shooters".

As for the future of the Scotties and Brier, instead of comparing curling to hockey we should be looking at the other game that we inherited from the Scots. The U.S. has more or less taken over the administration of pro golf around the world, but a person can still go through the process of qualifying for the U.S. or British Open (hence the name "Open"). That's what I see for the Brier and Scotties...wait-that's what we have now...with the winner going to the worlds...wait, that's what we have now.

Look at what's happening south of the border-their nationals (men and women) are taking place now, but the winner won't necessarily be going to the worlds. They've elected to model their system after Europe (including the "assembling" of rinks-look at the players' bios)-IMHO a big mistake as has been reflected in their recent (30 year) international results.

I'll repeat what I've said in the US thread-the growth and development of winning American teams is equally, if not more important for the growth of curling than any professional league-let's face it, until curling can reach the level at which the "pros" can walk away from their 9 to 5 jobs and become full-time curlers then we're just looking at the National Lacrosse League-only with brushes instead of sticks. Now ask yourself-where does that kind of $$$ come from?

BTW, lest any of you are lacrosse fans, I've been a player, manager and fan since the 60's-I love Canada's National Sport.

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Last edited by Jimbobogie on 02-20-15 at 01:11PM

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jimbobogie


Look at what's happening south of the border-their nationals (men and women) are taking place now, but the winner won't necessarily be going to the worlds. They've elected to model their system after Europe (including the "assembling" of rinks-look at the players' bios)-IMHO a big mistake as has been reflected in their recent (30 year) international results.

I'll repeat what I've said in the US thread-the growth and development of winning American teams is equally, if not more important for the growth of curling than any professional league-let's face it, until curling can reach the level at which the "pros" can walk away from their 9 to 5 jobs and become full-time curlers then we're just looking at the National Lacrosse League-only with brushes instead of sticks. Now ask yourself-where does that kind of $$$ come from?

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Interesting comments.

A interesting point is that Canada, the supposed hub of Curling is actually in the decline. Many, many clubs have closed in the last 20 years with only a couple of new clubs opening. 30 years ago 4% of the population curled. Now it is just over 2%.

It has nothing to do with immigration as one club I belong to held and open house with good promotion and got about 80 people come to it! As a 4 sheet club we were overwhelmed, but the interesting part is we had a real sampling of the population and two of the most interested people were lads from India.

The reality is either the Provincial Associations and CCA get the point that to produce the 1% performance curlers you need the other 99% and do something or Canada will soon fall from the curling summit. This will result in less Government Grants and less CCA, etc. In reality it is their jobs on the line and should they lose their current well paid spots there is no guarantee Tim Horton's will need people of their calibre at the counter!

They have no real marketing programs and no real club support system. In effect these organizations that feed off curling are a non-productive overhead to all clubs.

This sport needs a real marketing program in September promoting all curling and pointing people to local clubs. It needs a marketing group to promote curling to community Recreational Departments and a push to include curling rinks in new Rec Centre projects.

And in my view the adaption of the Draconian CAC system has done nothing but hurt club junior programs.

If we don't turn the trend around you will have to go to the US to curl!

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quote:

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Originally posted by lolar3288
Interesting comments.

A interesting point is that Canada, the supposed hub of Curling is actually in the decline. Many, many clubs have closed in the last 20 years with only a couple of new clubs opening. 30 years ago 4% of the population curled. Now it is just over 2%.

It has nothing to do with immigration as one club I belong to held and open house with good promotion and got about 80 people come to it! As a 4 sheet club we were overwhelmed, but the interesting part is we had a real sampling of the population and two of the most interested people were lads from India.

The reality is either the Provincial Associations and CCA get the point that to produce the 1% performance curlers you need the other 99% and do something or Canada will soon fall from the curling summit. This will result in less Government Grants and less CCA, etc. In reality it is their jobs on the line and should they lose their current well paid spots there is no guarantee Tim Horton's will need people of their calibre at the counter!

They have no real marketing programs and no real club support system. In effect these organizations that feed off curling are a non-productive overhead to all clubs.

This sport needs a real marketing program in September promoting all curling and pointing people to local clubs. It needs a marketing group to promote curling to community Recreational Departments and a push to include curling rinks in new Rec Centre projects.

And in my view the adaption of the Draconian CAC system has done nothing but hurt club junior programs.

If we don't turn the trend around you will have to go to the US to curl!

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Last edited by mcgregorm89 on 02-20-15 at 02:28PM

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Reading all the comments was interesting.
The point was made that elite curlers like professional need to be develop.
Government funding should not be giving to professional people.
The CCA should not used tax payer money to support the elite. ( 3 of the 4 top teams in the Scotties are supported by "Own the podium" not sure about Sask.).
Nunavut did not go.
If we want the best team to represent Canada go through the WCT and get the CCA out of it. The CCA should help in the development only not funding. The spread between the have and have not as increase and with the current system it will only get bigger.

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I don't really see the threat to the sport from the elite curlers going professional and getting more air time. Consider golf, which is every bit as stratified in terms of elite and amateur players. Watching the elites play a beautiful sport is often what attracts the newbies.

Although anecdotes don't make a statistically valid sample, almost everyone I know in my circle that started curling did so because we saw the elites do it on TV and we thought, "I think I can do that--and it looks like fun!" Of course we all know the latter part is true, but the first part takes quite a bit of investment to be recognized as anything approaching "good."

But to get back to the point, the pros can drive the amateur market, and I don't think it's a bad thing. For there to be more pros, there need to be a large supply of amateurs. On this point, you can draw from evolutionary biology: the quickest way to develop exceptional talent (pros) is to have a large and diverse pool to draw from (amateurs). That's the whole principle of "survival of the fittest," and it works in sports as well as it does in biology. The driving force in biology is competition and selection, and that works in sports, too. Provide coaching, instruction, and competition to a large enough, diverse pool of amateurs and you will discover your pros. Critical to this piece is a completely open system. We shouldn't set up rules to favor any one set of players other than by what they are willing to personally invest and earn through competition. If there is national support to be given, it should be given to teams that demonstrate their talents in the crucible of competition--oh, wait, isn't that what Canada does?

Europe takes their small pool and tries to make them as fit as possible, and they have some geographic advantages over big countries in terms of arranging regular competition (selection factor). Maybe this is really the only way they can cope on the world stage. Canada has the overwhelmingly decisive advantage of raw numbers, and should be able to be a major, if not dominant force in world curling for a long time to come for that reason alone. The U.S. is somewhere in-between. We COULD be a raw-number monster if we could figure out how to deliver more instruction, coaching, and competition to our curling population. Talent will naturally fall out of that system. Grooming existing ducks in a small pond won't get it done long-term, and maybe not even short-term. The math/biology principles just won't work for you.

Cheers.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sydney57
Reading all the comments was interesting.
The point was made that elite curlers like professional need to be develop.
Government funding should not be giving to professional people.
The CCA should not used tax payer money to support the elite. ( 3 of the 4 top teams in the Scotties are supported by "Own the podium" not sure about Sask.).
Nunavut did not go.
If we want the best team to represent Canada go through the WCT and get the CCA out of it. The CCA should help in the development only not funding. The spread between the have and have not as increase and with the current system it will only get bigger.

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Last edited by nicecontroleasy on 02-20-15 at 07:24PM

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Curling has changed so much in the last 10 years. It used to be a sport where 4 club mates could enter playdowns and if they curled good, get a chance to put on their provinces jacket and be in the Scotties or Brier. Now you have semi pro players that don't even represent the province they reside in. In my mind the sport has taken a few steps back all for the elite curler and Olympics.

To me the Brier and Scotties was all about the privilege of representing your Province in a National competition. Its all changed. The residency rule is a joke. I have 3 mates and we are thinking of curling out of Nunavut next year. Its a joke and there is nothing stopping us from doing it. Just need a post office address. I am going to be a trapper next year.

There is clearly 2 levels of competition in Canada. The Slams, WCT and such are clearly better. Well let them compete for the Olympics and leave the Brier and Scotties to the rest.

In my province there is fewer and fewer curlers each year. I go to the rink and the leagues are not full. This is not good for the game. At least the CCA is trying to promote the game, while my Provincial body just seems to want to hold competitions and clinics. They have no plan to promote the game.

In my opinion the game is clearly loosing its soul.

Too bad because I believe it is the greatest game ever. You can play from 10 to 90. You can find a level of competition to play at. You can leave the game for years and return and still play. And no one can take away the social aspect of the game.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Love2Curl
Curling has changed so much in the last 10 years. It used to be a sport where 4 club mates could enter playdowns and if they curled good, get a chance to put on their provinces jacket and be in the Scotties or Brier. Now you have semi pro players that don't even represent the province they reside in. In my mind the sport has taken a few steps back all for the elite curler and Olympics.

To me the Brier and Scotties was all about the privilege of representing your Province in a National competition. Its all changed. The residency rule is a joke. I have 3 mates and we are thinking of curling out of Nunavut next year. Its a joke and there is nothing stopping us from doing it. Just need a post office address. I am going to be a trapper next year.

There is clearly 2 levels of competition in Canada. The Slams, WCT and such are clearly better. Well let them compete for the Olympics and leave the Brier and Scotties to the rest.

In my province there is fewer and fewer curlers each year. I go to the rink and the leagues are not full. This is not good for the game. At least the CCA is trying to promote the game, while my Provincial body just seems to want to hold competitions and clinics. They have no plan to promote the game.

In my opinion the game is clearly loosing its soul.

Too bad because I believe it is the greatest game ever. You can play from 10 to 90. You can find a level of competition to play at. You can leave the game for years and return and still play. And no one can take away the social aspect of the game.

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