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M: NWTCA Curling Club Championships
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01-21-15 01:38PM
FollowingAlong is offline Click Here to See the Profile for FollowingAlong Click here to Send FollowingAlong a Private Message Find more posts by FollowingAlong Add FollowingAlong to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
FollowingAlong
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Relegation - Scotties and Brier

There's been some debate on relegation as it pertains to the Scotties and Brier. If the CCA is going to continue with the new model (at least for the Brier) that grants a spot in next year's event to Team Canada and (new again this year for the Scotties) a possible spot for Northern Ontario and (if they decide to send teams) a spot for Nunavut, that means 15 possible teams.

The CCA also seems stuck on the 12 team main event model which requires some form of relegation. We can debate this until the cows come home whether NT, YT, PE, NU, or whichever other province/territory has a bad Scotties/Brier should be subjected to relegation the following year. Personally, based on recent performance, it doesn't really make sense that the field should be expanding but I understand the arguments being presented. Hey, if Northern Ontario can argue that they should get a spot because of extensive travel requirements to compete with their southern Ontario counterparts, each of our territories could make the same argument. That being said, let's look outside the box on this.

With 15 teams (10 provinces, 3 territories, Northern Ontario, Team Canada), a full round robin would require 105 games (15*14/2). If 5 sheets of ice would be available, that would be 21 draws. If the event starts on Saturday and you play 3 draws a day, you complete the round robin the following Friday - with each team playing exactly 2 games a day.

With this model, there would be no playoff games on Friday unless a situation arose that required 3 tie-breaker draws and then you'd have to play a late night tie-breaker game on Friday - such is the pain you need to bear if you fall into that situation. If two or three tie-breaker draws are required, you would need the second Saturday morning and afternoon to run tie-breaker games and if that is necessary, you push the 1-2 and 3-4 page games to run on the same draw Saturday evening. If only one tie-breaker game is required (or none), the tie-breaker game would go Saturday morning, the 3-4 game would go Saturday afternoon, and the 1-2 game would go Saturday evening.

The semi-final would go Sunday morning, the arguably useful bronze medal game would go Sunday afternoon, and the final would go at the now standard Sunday evening slot.

Yes, you'd need more volunteers, the ice technicians would have a bit more work, and you's have that one possible issue where you have the 1-2 and 3-4 games being played at the same time, but going with this option you can get rid of relegation. How long will it take Nunavut to be competitive? Who knows, but it will take a lot less time than it will if they start coming for one game in relegation only to be sent home a day or two later because they lost that game.

I understand that I've probably overlooked a thing or two, but this seems so much better than relegation that it shouldn't be dismissed without some consideration.

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01-21-15 03:33PM
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doubletakeout
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Ooof. The national championships are gruelling enough without everyone needing to play 3 additional games against teams that likely won't put up much resistance or interfere with playoff positioning.

A 12-team round robin also replicates the conditions of the world championship awaiting the winner.

I believe (Gerry?) that requiring 5 sheets would limit potential host venues, not to mention increase the costs and workload of the ice crew. Accommodating the 3 additional teams for the entire tournament would also increase hosting costs.

Relegation is a normal occurrence in many sporting events. It's also not unusual in the curling world. I believe Denmark has just been bumped to the European "B" men's championship next year. They can still make it into the main "A" championships the following year, and qualify for the world championships, with a good performance. We also don't see every curling nation send teams to the world championships.

For the CCA to continue its funding level from Sport Canada and the Canadian Olympic Committee, they must ensure access to national championships for all regional associations. Relegation is a great solution, in my opinion. At the very least, there will be four meaningful games on the ice on every draw - once provinces win their way into the main tournament, they will want to fight to stay there. We keep the provincial tradition and the 12-team round robin which has a pretty good track record - we're just including the 12 best teams from the 15 available every year.

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01-21-15 04:26PM
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FollowingAlong
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quote:
Originally posted by doubletakeout
Ooof. The national championships are gruelling enough without everyone needing to play 3 additional games against teams that likely won't put up much resistance or interfere with playoff positioning.

A 12-team round robin also replicates the conditions of the world championship awaiting the winner.

I believe (Gerry?) that requiring 5 sheets would limit potential host venues, not to mention increase the costs and workload of the ice crew. Accommodating the 3 additional teams for the entire tournament would also increase hosting costs.

Relegation is a normal occurrence in many sporting events. It's also not unusual in the curling world. I believe Denmark has just been bumped to the European "B" men's championship next year. They can still make it into the main "A" championships the following year, and qualify for the world championships, with a good performance. We also don't see every curling nation send teams to the world championships.

For the CCA to continue its funding level from Sport Canada and the Canadian Olympic Committee, they must ensure access to national championships for all regional associations. Relegation is a great solution, in my opinion. At the very least, there will be four meaningful games on the ice on every draw - once provinces win their way into the main tournament, they will want to fight to stay there. We keep the provincial tradition and the 12-team round robin which has a pretty good track record - we're just including the 12 best teams from the 15 available every year.



First off, every standard hockey arena in Canada is 85 feet wide and at roughly 14.5 feet per sheet, 5 sheets can be accommodated everywhere. What would get reduced is the size of walkway areas, etc. between sheets and along the boards so there would have to be some thinking required. I did acknowledge that there would be additional work for ice crews and volunteers.

I disagree with your assertion that under the current format that there are 4 meaningful games every draw. There certainly could be, but there's never a guarantee that later in the week two of that week's bottom-feeders aren't playing against each other Tuesday night, Wednesday, Thursday - that would be a meaningless game.

Maybe relegation will work over the long haul, but I have concerns that it may not. It may not happen in Alberta or Manitoba or Saskatchewan or Ontario but if, let's say PEI doesn't make it through relegation for two, three, four consecutive years. How long will it take for the provincial winner to just say, we're not going to nationals or worse, the provincial association has to tell the CCA that they declared a provincial champion, but no one on their list of competing teams is interested in coming to a possible one and done event. I don't know if it will ever happen, but it could.

You touch on relegation in Europe and I guess it works ok there so maybe it will be ok here as well.

As I suggested, this can be debated until the cows come home - some will favour relegation; others will not. I was merely trying to present a possible solution that didn't involve relegation. And since the CCA brings all 15 (or 14) teams to the event regardless, the incremental cost of keeping 3 teams there for the week are 9 hotel rooms for 6, maybe 7 nights - a drop in the bucket compared to the costs already being incurred.

I will agree that a Brier or a Scotties is a grueling event. Does it need to mirror a world championship? No. There was a time when the Brier had 12 teams but the world championship only had 10.

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01-21-15 04:37PM
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Relegation won't be a good thing in the long term. If Nunuvut knew they would staying for the week, then they might consider coming. 9 extra hotel nights are ok - better than flying a long way for only 2 days of curling.

Why not have the two page playoffs at the same time, if Sportsnet can hop back and forth between games, why not TSN? More interesting for the fans.

Don't the slams break ties by a draw to the button at the beginning of the week? The CCA can do the same.

We have to encourage teams to play not discourage them. Maybe the CCA rather than funding already heavily sponsored elite teams, fund travel for the Northern and East coast teams for some of the cashspiels...

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01-21-15 04:44PM
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quote:
Originally posted by FollowingAlong


I disagree with your assertion that under the current format that there are 4 meaningful games every draw. There certainly could be, but there's never a guarantee that later in the week two of that week's bottom-feeders aren't playing against each other Tuesday night, Wednesday, Thursday - that would be a meaningless game.



... and now the games between the bottom-feeders have something at stake. win, increase your chances of staying in the main draw next year. lose, potentially face relegation.

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01-21-15 04:45PM
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what i hate here is that nunavut is not even coming. I do understand that if they dont think they are ready they shouldnt go but if thats the case then perhaps a spot should not have been made for them yet. Honestly i dont see them coming next year either because, how can you possibly think that in a years time your ready.

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01-21-15 04:54PM
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***I'm going to preface this post by saying I may take some flack for this, but I'm taking a side and that's really what these forum are about***

If we look at our existing National Championships in the various amateur sports, we don't always see every province represented. That's because these sports have minimum standards (lap time, scores, standings, etc) and the athletes that can meet these metrics move on to the International competitions.

If Curling were to move to a similar model, you could group teams regionally across the country and based on the enrollment in those regions, assign a set number of teams to attend the Nationals.

So for example, if they want to keep with existing 12 team format for the Scotties and Brier, you break the country up into 4 zones and each zone gets 2-6 entries based on the number of enrolled teams. This still gives teams from every province and territory the opportunity to compete for the Nationals, but it allows more of the top teams to be represented on the big stage (and not just one per province/territory).

The real issue, as I've always seen it, is that the top 1% of teams in this country will almost always win the Brier or Scotties. This is more of a systemic issue than anything because the world's top curlers are still Amateurs and not Professionals. So as always it comes down to money.

IF curling were ever to move to a professional/amateur situation like figure skating it would completely change the game and we'd have to re-think our National Championships

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01-21-15 04:59PM
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and in general im against relegation. lets remember that no matter what the reason is these teams are taking time off work and paying their own money to get down to this national championship. and all that could end up being for nothing depending on how this plays out.

and really none of the curlers like this idea, even the likes of glenn howard and brad gushue have spoken against it. that should count for something

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01-21-15 05:31PM
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I stand Pro Relegation because of the success I have seen in its application in the Europeans. Having read these thoughtful posts, thoroughly, I do see a limitation.

In Europe there are multiple teams knocking at the door to make it INTO B - there has been a C category.

Here in Canada it is very different because there will always be a small number of teams in the B group, aka the relegation round, because they are limiting it to geographic parameters.

There has to be prestige, and not only shame, in being in the relegation round. I recommend that CCA looks at opening up a few more berths in the relegation round to, say, runners up from certain regions. Or, The Dominion champions. Make the event more than a peeWee round robin of a few teams. Make it matter in its own right, with the reward being the Big Event, of course, but also a medal for Winning B. Eight teams? Thoughts.

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01-21-15 10:06PM
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I'm pro relegation for reasons already stated.

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01-21-15 10:49PM
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as copied and pasted

quote:
Originally posted by Radio-Man
I'm pro relegation for reasons already stated.


Another response from Ontario who expects them to be an auto berth in the Brier every year. What happens when as early as THIS year a no-name team wins the province, goes to the brier and gets relegated and then doesn't qualify through relegation the following year?? Will you sing the same song or another tune? I think not.

You just don't get it that the Brier is more than a National Championship. It's for teams from Coast to Coast going back almost 90 years. I suppose you want to go back back the days where Ontario had 3 of the 8 teams...... and still lost.

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01-21-15 11:45PM
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Re: as copied and pasted

quote:
Originally posted by IN-OFF-FOR-2


Another response from Ontario who expects them to be an auto berth in the Brier every year. What happens when as early as THIS year a no-name team wins the province, goes to the brier and gets relegated and then doesn't qualify through relegation the following year?? Will you sing the same song or another tune? I think not.

You just don't get it that the Brier is more than a National Championship. It's for teams from Coast to Coast going back almost 90 years. I suppose you want to go back back the days where Ontario had 3 of the 8 teams...... and still lost.



Is that what I expect? Certainly not. If Ontario gets relegated so be it, It wouldn't change my view. As much as I like the Brier and Scotties traditions and the province vs. province pride and pageantry, they are not the strongest fields to determine National Champions. I'd much prefer strength of field over all inclusive. I've never been one bound by traditions.

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Last edited by Radio-Man on 01-21-15 at 11:52PM

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01-26-15 05:36PM
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I made a comment in another thread that a full 15 teams could be accommodated by using the ice at the home club for games involving lower seeded teams. Briefly, here it is:

Start the games on Saturday morning. Each team would get at least one game on TV at the main arena (for example, Nunavut vs Yukon in the Sunday morning draw) and each team would have to play at least one game "on the road" at the local club (for example, Team Canada vs Nunavut-sorry to pick on Nunavut and frankly they probably won't even show unless some existing team decides to "relocate" ). The dynamics aren't as dramatic as you might think. We're only looking at 105 games in total-all teams will have one day where they have to play 3 games. The number of "Road" games would be determined by:

1 Whether you use a 4 or a 5 sheet main rink and
2. Preliminary seeding by the schedule-makers.

The "road game" portion of the schedule could be wrapped up no later than Tuesday so if one of the lower-seeded teams is better than anticipated, they'll be back on the man ice by mid-week. The home club gets additional food/drink revenue and no fans go home early or angry because their team didn't make "The Show".

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02-08-15 08:31AM
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Here is the problem. This has been received negatively because there is only one team each year thats in the stink hole at the brier. They get laughed at and written about for a whole year (how they put their province in relegation). If the brier relegated 3 or 4 teams each year to go along with the three team in waiting then that would make the process much more credible.

If you dont like that idea then I say let them all play !

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02-08-15 03:39PM
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I can appreciate that the CCA feels it important that every region of the country has the right to contest for the National championship. That right is central, IMO, to what curling is all about.

However, relegation is not the solution to the issue of adding the 3 teams. There are two, simple alternatives.

First, add all 3 teams to the event and either play 2 pools or one, longer, round robin event. 2 Pools does raise he question of seeding and can cause problems. 1 pool makes more sense, it does lengthen the event, but that can be overcome by adding a 5th sheet to the playing surface (easily done and successful in the past).

2nd-and IMO more sensible-the NWT, Yukon and Nunavut play off for one representative. Costs for this playoff to be subsidized by all provinces and the CCA. Considering the massive amount of travel for the teams involved this would only be fair. Additionally, there simply aren't enough curlers in these three regions to justify a berth at the National Championships. For example, there are far more clubs and curlers on Vancouver Island than all three of the aforementioned regions combined.

Unfortunately, the underlying problem-as I see it-is not that these regions want to compete, but that we have a governing body that continues to try and superimpose the structures of other sports onto our game.

This, IMO, is due to a single reason; we have turned over the running of our sport to people who neither play, understand or care about the unique character and nature of the game. And this is not a sudden event. It has been carrying on now for two and a half decades and this is the harvest we now reap.

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02-08-15 09:19PM
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Re: Re: as copied and pasted

quote:
Originally posted by Radio-Man


Is that what I expect? Certainly not. If Ontario gets relegated so be it, It wouldn't change my view. As much as I like the Brier and Scotties traditions and the province vs. province pride and pageantry, they are not the strongest fields to determine National Champions. I'd much prefer strength of field over all inclusive. I've never been one bound by traditions.



You want strength of field? Go watch the Canada Cup of Curling. If the CCA can pull it off, this will become how we select our national reps.

The Brier/Scotties are tradition, whether you like it or not. I don't mind some changes in order to improve the field but... it's still about getting all provinces/territories involved. Relegation may not be the right option, but it still something to try and see how it works without completely blowing up what these events are supposed to be.

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02-08-15 09:30PM
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Re: Re: Re: as copied and pasted

quote:
Originally posted by JustAnotherHack


You want strength of field? Go watch the Canada Cup of Curling. If the CCA can pull it off, this will become how we select our national reps.

The Brier/Scotties are tradition, whether you like it or not. I don't mind some changes in order to improve the field but... it's still about getting all provinces/territories involved. Relegation may not be the right option, but it still something to try and see how it works without completely blowing up what these events are supposed to be.



the canada cup will one day select the team that goes to worlds, it will NEVER happen. if you were to do that then you would need to abolish the brier and scotties all together because then what w8uld be the purpose? there sole purpose is to determine the team that goes to worlds so if you take that away then why hold the tournaments at all

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02-08-15 09:38PM
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Re: Re: Re: Re: as copied and pasted

quote:
Originally posted by misty1


the canada cup will one day select the team that goes to worlds, it will NEVER happen. if you were to do that then you would need to abolish the brier and scotties all together because then what w8uld be the purpose? there sole purpose is to determine the team that goes to worlds so if you take that away then why hold the tournaments at all



All I'm going to say is read the following article:

http://www.standard-freeholder.com/...d-curling-event

And then you can wonder why I'm thinking that this is what the intention of the CCA is for the long term future of competitive curling in Canada.

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02-08-15 09:47PM
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: as copied and pasted

quote:
Originally posted by JustAnotherHack


All I'm going to say is read the following article:

http://www.standard-freeholder.com/...d-curling-event

And then you can wonder why I'm thinking that this is what the intention of the CCA is for the long term future of competitive curling in Canada.



well if they ever do get their way i might just be done because that would be an incredibly stupid move. you know the players would never go for it

the method we have now works. canadian teams are still making playoffs and competing for medals. who cares if its nit always gold

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02-09-15 10:51AM
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First time poster here.

Quick question about relegation/pre-qualification. Does anyone know what happens if all 3 teams finish the round robin at 1-1?

The top 2 go to the final so would they advance based on cumulative draw to the button totals?

Thanks for you help!

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02-12-15 02:59PM
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Relegation

What I would like to see is a spreadsheet on how many teams entered the playdowns in each prov/terr. Also how may games did the winners have to play in the playdowns to win it if they had to start at the first level (Zone). I would like to be able to compare those that had to play 10-15 games vs those who played 2or3. ie; Maybe all prov/assoc's who have less than 16 entries at the first level, trying for a spot at the Brier should be relegated.

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02-13-15 04:47AM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: May 2009
Location: Winfield and Richmond
Posts: 49

If you applied that rule to this year's playdowns you would have a former Olympic champion forced into relegation to qualify for the Brier. Maybe think that one over a little further!

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02-13-15 07:44AM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Dec 2014
Location:
Posts: 56

Re: Relegation

quote:
Originally posted by ronbro
What I would like to see is a spreadsheet on how many teams entered the playdowns in each prov/terr. Also how may games did the winners have to play in the playdowns to win it if they had to start at the first level (Zone). I would like to be able to compare those that had to play 10-15 games vs those who played 2or3. ie; Maybe all prov/assoc's who have less than 16 entries at the first level, trying for a spot at the Brier should be relegated.


I don't disagree with this. I believe the Brier and Scotties are the only Canadian national event that leads to a birth(s) into a world event where people expect all provinces/territories to be equally represented.


If you want to be at a national event, you best be good enough to be there. Is it heartbreaking for Horgan, Galusha and/or Koltun to have to go home on Saturday? Yes. But, they likely aren't going to win the event anyway - which I'd argue is the reason for going, and if you're just going to play and have a fun time, you have no business being there. There are about 10 womens teams in Canada that would do well at Worlds, max. Anyone but those 10 I would be incredibly shocked if they medalled at worlds. And god knows Galusha has been there 100 times and still will never win...so what good is it doing her to be there? What has she learned or how has she gotten better by just being there? Get better girl before you arrive. This one event is not going to make you better! This is the event that determines who goes to worlds and it shouldn't be treated as a party by any of the teams, but we all know 3-4 of them know they have no hope in hell of winning so it's an all expense paid vacayyyy girls!!! WOOOOOO

So sick of this.

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02-13-15 10:03AM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Dec 2014
Location:
Posts: 56

quote:
Originally posted by fresca
im old and not involved but i firmly believe that ALL provinces and the territories should be represented - and the Brier winner should be our National Rep at the Worlds ( which i dont care that much about and often do not watch )

the olympics are a highly overrated professional event, particularly by the players, and they can use the creepy slam events to determine its rep.....

I am totally against any more government funding of the top 4 teams for 2 years - 2 men and 2 women @ $100,000 per year each + plus another $1 mil on special treatment



By your logic, then I feel we need to step up and protest to the WCF that it is only fair that all member associations of the WCF compete in the World Championships ever year. There are currently 54 member associations. Seems silly to do this, correct? Seems appropriate to have some sort of qualification process to make the final 12 that compete at the Worlds, yes?

You can't have it both ways. We are only oblivious to this because Canada has never failed to qualify for the Worlds or Olympics... this whole qualification thing exists in our curling culture well before this.

And while we're at it, let's get rid of the provincial event formats...just have one large, open spiel that in some cases will have 100+ teams trying to win their province...while Newfoundland has 2 and PEI has 5. That makes sense. Perfect sense. It just simply isn't fair to win your zones but then not qualify for provincials because you lost out in regionals...oh so not fair to think that you have the chance to make it if YOU WIN. Losing and not getting to play...SO NOT FAIR. TRAVESTY!!!! What's next....participation awards.

Last edited by curler2014 on 02-13-15 at 10:08AM

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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Dec 2014
Location:
Posts: 56

quote:
Originally posted by fresca
apparently you are incapable of understanding my logic ... i hope you are single ... would be a treat to wake up beside you every morning...


I suggest the contrary, but I guess old minds are hard to reason with. Your "ideas" and what you think should be are antiquated and are subject to failure because what was good even just a year ago, may not be good now. We need to keep up, even in curling. Is it right that a lot of it is driven by money? No. If we could have our cake and eat it too, then that would be a different story. But if we want our sport to continue to grow, be televised the way it is, hold our Brier in 10000 seat arenas, etc., we need to accept that it got to this point because of the changes made along the way. I am ever thankful to the ELITE teams for doing so well, becoming celebrities in non-curling households because it has allowed our sport to be what it is. It is watched more now by non-curlers than ever before. It is good for the sport, but we can't see it because as devoted curlers and lovers of the game, change is hard to swallow.

Just because something worked in 1927, doesn't mean it's gospel. The world is driven by change and needs change in every facet.

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