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06-05-16 10:23PM
recboy_131 is offline Click Here to See the Profile for recboy_131 Click here to Send recboy_131 a Private Message Find more posts by recboy_131 Add recboy_131 to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
recboy_131
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sadly I don't think we will ever see the full numbers until all the votes are cast and rules in place.

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06-05-16 10:57PM
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JustAnotherHack
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Until I see the NRC report, I'm not really going to buy into anything being tossed about.

(And it had better be released for all of us to examine.)

I can't say I'm surprised about the sweeping rules and the reluctance to actually police how people sweep, but... I'm still a bit disappointed. It's a cop-out.

I hope that the final NRC report examined sweeping mechanics as much as fabrics and how they affected how the rock travels... I would expect they did but let's see what info we get about their research.

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06-06-16 08:32AM
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Netz
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quote:
Originally posted by JustAnotherHack
I can't say I'm surprised about the sweeping rules and the reluctance to actually police how people sweep, but... I'm still a bit disappointed. It's a cop-out.

I hope that the final NRC report examined sweeping mechanics as much as fabrics and how they affected how the rock travels.



Agree, a cop out. The mechanics have as much to do with the problem as the fabric and by not policing this it is all a waste of time.

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06-06-16 09:27AM
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curlky
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Registered: Oct 2013
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quote:
Originally posted by recboy_131
curlky,

yeah I was surprised as well about the colour theory. the only other thing id add to that is the basic idea of the darker colour hold the heat longer making it more effective. kinda like the whole wearing a black shirt in the summer idea. its a bit of a stretch but it may be a consideration.



Not to be a pain, but just to share some information with you, yoru heat theory on shirt color is not exactly right. The reason that a black shirt is hotter in the summer is because black absorbs the suns light, and that light turns into heat. A white shirt reflects light rather than absorbs it, so therefore it will not be as hot. But if you have a black piece of anything, and an equivalent piece of anything, and put them into an oven, they will heat at the exact same rate, the color does not matter.

Since the ice does not emit light, I think that the oven analogy is more appropriate.

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06-06-16 08:58PM
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recboy_131
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no pain curlky,

I knew I was a little off, but just trying to wrap my head around the colour theory.

one thing that has crossed my mind is heat retention in material. Do you think some of the materials hold heat that is created from the friction longer? you have basic heads that have nothing other then foam and material, others with the "foil" underside, and lastly the hardline with the stiffening plastic in front of the foam.

is there any merit to this idea?

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06-06-16 09:01PM
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AlanMacNeill
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Would seem to be fairly easily testable...

Perform a controlled sweep with multiple brooms (ideally, control the sweeper as well, so it's as consistent as possible...a machine would be best...), then measure the temperature on the head every 30 seconds or so (working on the assumption 30 seconds is an average minimal length of time from completion of one shot until the next is likely to be thrown) until it returned to room temperature (well "room" being "ice shed").

With modern laser thermometers that should be damned near trivial to perform...

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06-06-16 11:06PM
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Grat
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As much as technique is the problem, if they can find solution that's material based it's just as good. They need to make the rule in time for all manufacturers to get equipment out for this season. Brush manufacturers can focus on improved shafts and lighter heads.

About 1/3 of our club curlers are corning sweeping unintentionally, at least when they get their broom in front of the rock at all. I'd hate to see some sweeping Nazi's start trying to pull rocks from unintentional illegal sweeping.

The color thing is a little confusing - unless that's just effect dragging a stone, and not darker colors making it easier to carve. Or the lighter fabrics reflect more friction generated heat back to the ice, leading to warmer ice and a polishing effect to counteract any scratching.

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06-27-16 12:10PM
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PeelOfShame
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Aug 2015
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quote:
Originally posted by Grat
As much as technique is the problem, if they can find solution that's material based it's just as good. They need to make the rule in time for all manufacturers to get equipment out for this season. Brush manufacturers can focus on improved shafts and lighter heads.


Ask and ye shall receive, apparently. Fresh off the interwebs - WCF's published their initial findings from the summit. Look at the section most of the way down regarding "Approval of Recommendations".

WCF Sweeping Summit Update

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06-27-16 12:22PM
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Miz5508
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So it also appears that the wcf will be profiting from every head sale, by licensing the materal for the heads.

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06-27-16 12:28PM
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https://www.balanceplus.com/press062716.htm

Also this implies that, aside from the eLite being their new legal head, they will have the black head available for purchase?

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06-27-16 12:30PM
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PeelOfShame
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Aug 2015
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quote:
Originally posted by Miz5508
[Also this implies that, aside from the eLite being their new legal head, they will have the black head available for purchase?


I'd read it the same way as you. Though I find it interesting that they'll also be re-introducing the EQ+...

I think it's going to be an interesting equipment landscape on the club level in the fall.

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06-27-16 12:36PM
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Miz5508
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Seems like the legal heads will be super nerfed and the club heads will be made of pumice.

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06-27-16 12:55PM
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dks
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The fact that the sweeping summit seems to indicate that certain brush fabric and construction were the main variables in "adversely affecting rock direction" I find it a bit surprised that Balance Plus would still market non approved fabric. I predict most recreational curler will only buy WCF approved heads. Still, I understand that all these manufactures are sitting on a lot of inventory of non approved heads. Should be some good sale prices on non approved heads I think.

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06-27-16 12:59PM
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PeelOfShame
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Hardline's weighed in now too. New covers from them on Monday?

Hardline's Press Release

Last edited by PeelOfShame on 06-27-16 at 01:15PM

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06-27-16 01:41PM
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Miz5508
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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quote:
Originally posted by dks
The fact that the sweeping summit seems to indicate that certain brush fabric and construction were the main variables in "adversely affecting rock direction" I find it a bit surprised that Balance Plus would still market non approved fabric. I predict most recreational curler will only buy WCF approved heads. Still, I understand that all these manufactures are sitting on a lot of inventory of non approved heads. Should be some good sale prices on non approved heads I think.


I disagree. As they implied, I get the feeling that it will be very similar to using aluminum bats at every level but pro.

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06-27-16 01:50PM
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TakeItOut!
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Hmmmm

quote:
Originally posted by Miz5508
https://www.balanceplus.com/press062716.htm

Also this implies that, aside from the eLite being their new legal head, they will have the black head available for purchase?



What ever happened to the idea that the blackhead was only created to prove a point? Now it's available for use at the club level. Great, just great.

Proves that this summit only was done to create championship level rules. What about the other 99% of us?

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06-27-16 01:54PM
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So it looks like they are declaring open season on the 4 old guys curling in the Wednesday night open league and the local bonspiels? There are plenty of local teams that have sweepers who had the directional sweeping method down and the sweeping ability to move stones around last spring. They will now be allowed to continue missing the broom and moving the stone where they want while four old guys just have to be more accurate to beat them?

I don't think they give credit to the sweeping ability of a lot of players who may have never played the elite level. And how about all of those curlers who were at that level in juniors and play downs who are now only curling in the local events? Leaving the fabric open to anyone will have a negative affect at the club level.

Make it the same for all.

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06-27-16 02:00PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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I don't know if I'd call it "open season on the 4 old guys" as much as... potentially confusing.

I can imagine a landscape where individual bonspiels or clubs will make their own rules about which heads are or aren't permitted, and that folks traveling to a bonspiel'll need to come with a bag full of alternate brush heads to ensure they're not going to get caught out of compliance with local rules. (Hey, it could happen...)

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06-27-16 02:08PM
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Re: Hmmmm

quote:
Originally posted by TakeItOut!


What ever happened to the idea that the blackhead was only created to prove a point? Now it's available for use at the club level. Great, just great.

Proves that this summit only was done to create championship level rules. What about the other 99% of us?



So little respect for club players at all levels. We don't care if you directional sweep, damage your ice, etc. you are only club curlers.

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06-27-16 02:25PM
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Drew
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quote:
Originally posted by PeelOfShame
Hardline's weighed in now too. New covers from them on Monday?

Hardline's Press Release



It will be interesting to see if Hardline's concerns about the new product's durability turn out to be valid. While some curlers are clamoring for clubs to use the same rules as the pros, it's a substantial burden for the recreational curler if they have to buy a new brush head every week because the old one wore out. Durability may not be a major concern for sponsored pros, but it's a big factor in club play.

Also relevant to club play is brush performance in non-ideal ice conditions. I know I see everything from frost buildup to wet ice on a fairly regular basis, and if this new fabric doesn't perform in those conditions (I worry especially about the brush head "sticking" to wet ice, causing excessive burning of stones) it's further detrimental to club curlers.

So while I understand the concern about club curling turning into an arms race where players get left behind because their opponents have superior equipment, it's worth recognizing that it's not just sweeper ability that's different in club play, and trying to enforce WCF rules in a Tuesday night league might lead to a worse experience for everyone involved.

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06-27-16 02:54PM
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albetts
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Just took this from twitter. Long read but worth it. Enjoy

http://www.worldcurling.org/ss2016-update

Sorry, just noticed a previous post relative to this update.

Last edited by albetts on 06-27-16 at 02:58PM

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06-27-16 03:19PM
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jamcan
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Read the WCF release and all I can say is what a complete and utter whitewash.

They acknowledge the impact of technique but refuse to do anything about it. Instead, we force cash strapped but talented athletes to purchase what I guarantee will be very expensive heads. Can't help but wonder if there is a possibility of a class action lawsuit here. Another attempt to decimate the numbers of competitive curlers not by talent, but by pocketbook.

But I give notice to any team we face next year. I will, personally, plow, corner and dump old school style and I urge every team out there to do the same.

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06-27-16 04:26PM
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I agree they stuck their head in the sand when it came to technique and rules governing it, and snowplowing or dumping is very subjective. The rules governing the head material only apply to elite level events and to tell you the truth, if my club decided to try and implement the WCF rules for club play they would probably be told to cram it. Unless the club was willing to provide replacement heads for the players no club will take the chance of alienating valued members over something so stupid.

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06-27-16 05:56PM
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Grat
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The "cash strapped" curlers who were using directional sweeping were buying new pads more frequently with the old fabrics once they realized fresh pads worked better. This should help take the financial advantages out of the equation.

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06-27-16 06:31PM
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dugless_zone 13
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quote:
Originally posted by Grat
The "cash strapped" curlers who were using directional sweeping were buying new pads more frequently with the old fabrics once they realized fresh pads worked better. This should help take the financial advantages out of the equation.


pretty sure a team with a six figure sponsorship deal and manufacturer support will still have an advantage over the "cash strapped"teams.

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