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01-24-19 10:20PM
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Observer
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Scotties/Brier residency vs national idea

I've been giving some thought to the problem of the residency requirements for Scotties/Brier teams vs. the increasing nationalization of Canada's teams. I wonder if this format idea could deliver the best of both worlds....

The 14 provincial-territory teams get in via the traditional playdown system and the current residency rules, or even perhaps stricter residency rules.

The previous year's winner still gets in as Team Canada (No.15).

Then, you bring in six more teams whose members can be from anywhere. Let's call them "national" teams, and they must have been accumulating points during that season in cashspiels or other tour events, and the six like this that have the most points get in to a short play-in tournament that would take the place of the current "Wild Card" game. The top three national teams then advance into the full Scotties/Brier tournament, which would have 18 total teams: 14 traditional provincial teams, 1 Team Canada, and the three national winners.

Could this work?

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01-24-19 11:09PM
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No!
The residency rules are way to liberal now. Every member of the team should atleast reside within a 200 k radius of a common curling club of which all are playing members.

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01-25-19 08:23AM
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Re: Scotties/Brier residency vs national idea

quote:
Originally posted by Observer
The top three national teams then advance into the full Scotties/Brier tournament, which would have 18 total teams: 14 traditional provincial teams, 1 Team Canada, and the three national winners.

Could this work?



No. It would become a 4 team tournament - the 3 national teams and the returning champion would crush the provincial teams.

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01-25-19 01:11PM
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Exactly...and the residency rules are a joke. A number of teams have two members who don't live in the Province because one of them is a "student". So how does Curling Canada enforce this?

Otherwise make the Scotties and Brier strictly Province and all four must live in the same province.

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01-25-19 07:23PM
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Too many teams making the event run even longer than necessary and we all ready have the wild card pity berth to the top team on the CTRS that wasn't good enough to win it's province.

Here's the real and best solution:
1) no more pity berth. If you can't win your province you don't deserve more rights than others just cuz your team has deep pockets and can afford to tour more than others.
2) one entry for Yukon/NWT/Nunavut. You guys barely have enough curlers to deserve one berth and your talent pool is more shallow than a wading pool. Big distances to travel to play off? Fair argument, the rest of the country will help subsidize your travel.,
3) keep Team Canada but nuke the Northern Ontario spot. Like 2 above, you have fewer curlers every year.
4) Genie is out of the bottle with the parachute spot on a team. We have to live with it, but let's at least make the parachutist pay-you want special privileges? then pay up Bucko. On top of the regular entry they get to pay an extra $1,000.00 fee that goes to junior curling in that province. Students? get over it. They're young and mostly broke. Let them play as long as they prove they're going to school full time.
5)no two pool championship, one RR where you play everyone.

So 5 simple changes and you now have a 12 team event with the best teams in the country running for no more than a week.

And you know what? Whoever wins the Brier/STOH will still likely win the worlds, no matter how much the Slammers whine.

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Last edited by jamcan on 01-25-19 at 07:27PM

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01-25-19 09:32PM
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IN-OFF-FOR-2
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NOOO

This was discussed to death last year. I just have a few quick thoughts.

NO more teams
No more or even remove CTRS teams
Residency rule is a farce. When zero was allowed teams fraudulently had one. Now that one is allowed teams are stretching it to 2 with CC turning a blind eye and deaf ear for the top CTRS teams that seem to have "something" on CC executive to have all these changes go their way. Maybe there's a peepee video we don't know about?
Waaay too much importance put on the Olympics by CC to maintain their faces in the trough for expenses travel and salaries.
This money would be much better spent on saving the sport. Membership is dying and clubs closing left and right. Instead of sending 20-30 CC hangers on to every Worlds or Olympics, fix a club roof, subsidize a new plant, refurb some rocks, attract new members. At this rate the country will be down to 20 competitive teams. Teams trying to win Canada are aging and are not getting replaced with new blood. Spend the money to help keep clubs open and members playing, instead of paying 200 a head for that Korean bbq dinner at the olympics

All for now

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01-25-19 11:22PM
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MeaghanEdwards
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Who are the teams that have more than one out of province team member? Just curious.

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01-26-19 12:06AM
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IN-OFF-FOR-2
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Blatant

Homan with child with husband living in AB. Not Ontario for a second. Not your mail, but living address. Congratulations.
Courtney with child living with husband in AB, again congratulations.
Miskew and Weagle ON



Mailing addresses vs where you live! Student? I think not. Almost 30. Out of high school since 18. What course takes 12 years? 5 in Alberta?

And don't get me wrong I'm a huge fan of Team Homan, best chance for Canada at worlds or Olympics, but come clean.

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01-26-19 07:40AM
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I agree with a lot of the points that Jamcan summarized. The Brier and Scotties need to have the rules based on their event. They should not try and accommodate “Slam” teams. They are called National championships based on provincial qualifiers. Therefore you should have to reside in the damn province you redside in. How Team Canada is selected for the Olympics should not be a concern for the Brier and Scotties. This is for the National championship, how you select an Olympic team is another story. You can abide by any rule you want, but, for the National championship let’s not forget what it is supposed to be.

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01-26-19 08:20AM
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Ok then...my idea clearly has no support here. Fair enough.

I do like much of what dks said. So how about this instead...

-truly tighten and enforce the residency rules. Otherwise leave the format as it is.
-Afterwards, the top team in Canada by ranking that doesn’t conform to the residency rules has the right to challenge the Scotties/Brier winner to a playoff for the right to go to the Worlds. Something like a best 3 out of 5 series the weekend after. On paper, this would seem to assure that Canada is sending their truly best team to Worlds.

Thoughts?

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01-26-19 10:17AM
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decade
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quote:
Originally posted by MeaghanEdwards
Who are the teams that have more than one out of province team member? Just curious.
You has a blog owner should know which teams are abusing the system!

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01-26-19 11:07AM
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quote:
Originally posted by decade
You has a blog owner should know which teams are abusing the system!


? I don't own a blog. Knew about Homan w/ school but didn't know about others.

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01-26-19 12:59PM
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curlerbroad
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quote:
Originally posted by Observer
Ok then...my idea clearly has no support here. Fair enough.

I do like much of what dks said. So how about this instead...

-truly tighten and enforce the residency rules. Otherwise leave the format as it is.
-Afterwards, the top team in Canada by ranking that doesn’t conform to the residency rules has the right to challenge the Scotties/Brier winner to a playoff for the right to go to the Worlds. Something like a best 3 out of 5 series the weekend after. On paper, this would seem to assure that Canada is sending their truly best team to Worlds.

Thoughts?



Good idea! Too bad the Curling Canada folks will never consider it.

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01-28-19 08:08AM
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There is no chance that Curling Canada is getting rid of residency rules or wildcard teams because they are not trying to promote the provinces. There goal is to promote Canadian curling and get the best team to Worlds. These measures are nessecary to keep Canada competitive on that stage. Multiple countries in Europe and Asia have continued to catch and pass Canada at these events because they only support 1 or 2 national teams. Curling Canada also has the Travelers Curling Club Championship where players must be from one club. While very good curling it is no where near that of the Brier. Also very few people would pay to go and watch this event since it is not the best. If we want to continue to be competitive on the world stage we need to allow the best teams to play together.

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01-28-19 04:43PM
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FollowingAlong
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quote:
Originally posted by curlinghutch
There is no chance that Curling Canada is getting rid of residency rules or wildcard teams because they are not trying to promote the provinces. There goal is to promote Canadian curling and get the best team to Worlds. These measures are nessecary to keep Canada competitive on that stage. Multiple countries in Europe and Asia have continued to catch and pass Canada at these events because they only support 1 or 2 national teams. Curling Canada also has the Travelers Curling Club Championship where players must be from one club. While very good curling it is no where near that of the Brier. Also very few people would pay to go and watch this event since it is not the best. If we want to continue to be competitive on the world stage we need to allow the best teams to play together.


The Brier used to have huge crowds up until the late 1990's, early 2000's when the Canadian Curling Association decided to start to cater to the "professional" curlers and the field did not always have the best curlers in Canada. Fans came because of their provincial allegiance to cheer for their regional team. Now, provincial winners are rarely from within the same provincial boundary.

Now, Curling Canada is placing a huge emphasis on the Olympics and creating medal winners in that event (how did that work out in 2018?) to the detriment of paying enough attention to a feeder system that can sustain a high level of athletes year in and year out. I don't think exclusivity is the answer for long-term success.

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01-29-19 08:06AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Observer
Ok then...my idea clearly has no support here. Fair enough.

I do like much of what dks said. So how about this instead...

-truly tighten and enforce the residency rules. Otherwise leave the format as it is.
-Afterwards, the top team in Canada by ranking that doesn’t conform to the residency rules has the right to challenge the Scotties/Brier winner to a playoff for the right to go to the Worlds. Something like a best 3 out of 5 series the weekend after. On paper, this would seem to assure that Canada is sending their truly best team to Worlds.

Thoughts?



A couple of questions for the residency promoters.

1) Why are residency rules so important? I.E. What do they add to the sport?

2) Why over complicate it (such as the quoted poster)?

3) What is the detriment of removing residency rules?

Right now this discussion is a bunch of club curlers coming up with complicated solutions without a real problem to fix or a clear idea of why it needs to be fixed. Ask any top curler in Canada and they will say residency rules need to go.

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01-29-19 09:24AM
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The Scotties and Brier have been a National competition. Win that and your team gets to go to the worlds. Then the Olympics accepted curling as a full time sport. Everything changed. Now you have the super elites, the competitive curler and the lowly club curler.

The world super elites - many of them are full time curlers fully funded either by governments or deep pocketed sponsors. These are the teams now seen at the Worlds and Olympics. Should a club team beat Edin or Hassleborg in Sweden, very doubtful they would be chosen to go to the Worlds.

Canada has to keep up. At our national Championships, some teams only have to play 1 or 2 other teams to earn the right to go. Others have a grueling series of playdowns to get to Provincials. In order to keep/secure funding, Curling Canada had to include the Northern Teams. Each region had maybe 2 - 4 teams playing in their final qualifier. There are two teams going from Ontario. This year, Northern Ontario only has 4 women's teams. Does that merit a second entry from Ontario?

For the Olympics and even the Worlds, Canada does need to send a Super Elite or elite team to keep pace with the elite teams the rest of the world sends.

Therefore, keep the Scotties and Brier a strictly national competition (a team from each province or territory) but the winners get an entry into the Canada Cup. The winner of the Canada Cup goes to the Worlds. Winners also get an entry into the Olympic pre-trials. The schedule may have to be changed slightly but this way, potential elite teams can be scouted and the super elites need not play in the Scotties or Brier and don't have to worry about residency.

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01-29-19 09:30AM
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A simple answer why residency is important is because this is a National championship where to qualify you have to win your provincials. The original concept was that it was to determine the best provincial team in Canada. So logically they were originally teams consisting of players in the same province. Changing to a no residency requirement fundamentally changes the National championship core principal. As stated before, if you want to “best” team to represent Canada in the Olympics then implement any rules you want. Don’t have residency. But, if you want to determine the best provincial team in Canada then you have to have some residency component.

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01-29-19 12:53PM
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IMHO, the brier and the Scotties are the ultimate goal. These competitions are played between PROVINCES. You should have to be a permanent resident to compete for your province. Why do we have to be dominant in the worlds? If this is the goal why are we sending top curlers to coach the other countries? Canada will be the top curling country for years to come. Yes, there will be the odd Edin and Hasselborgs of the world, but Canada would still have at least 5 teams from womens and mens that would be competitive at worlds. Even if there was single province residency rules.

Olympics and residency rules have ruined competitive curling provincially. Causing way lower numbers in entries in playdowns compared to years ago.

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01-29-19 12:54PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dks
A simple answer why residency is important is because this is a National championship where to qualify you have to win your provincials. The original concept was that it was to determine the best provincial team in Canada. So logically they were originally teams consisting of players in the same province. Changing to a no residency requirement fundamentally changes the National championship core principal. As stated before, if you want to “best” team to represent Canada in the Olympics then implement any rules you want. Don’t have residency. But, if you want to determine the best provincial team in Canada then you have to have some residency component.


Since when was the Brier or the Scotties "finding the best provincial team in Canada" and not finding the "best team in Canada"?

Those competitions are about finding Canada's national champions. Using the provincial model was merely the easiest way to do it in the past. And I have yet to see a compelling argument why removing residency rules would some how make using the provincial play down system invalid or impractical.

First off, residency rules are already being ignored. Second, market forces will distribute teams fairly evenly (as is already happening). Club teams or non tour teams aren't going to be forced out anymore than they already are if the formality of residency is dropped. If anything, there will be higher competitiveness at the Brier and STOH than is currently experienced. The club and non-tour teams would also find themselves up against tougher competition and will have to improve to have a chance. To me, dropping residency will increase competition at the provincial and national level. Expose lower tier teams to higher tier opponents (something they don't get too often).

So the only argument that one actually can present is that the people won't support the out of town teams. But again, that's not really true as people have been doing that already as well. And really, this argument is just an appeal to nostalgia more than anything concrete.

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01-29-19 01:02PM
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quote:
Originally posted by guido

Olympics and residency rules have ruined competitive curling provincially. Causing way lower numbers in entries in playdowns compared to years ago. [/B]


Correlation does not mean causation. There are other reasons than residency or the Olympics for lower entry numbers.

For example, the quality of curling has gone up. The number of top teams has gone up. Once the tour was brought back into the fold (i.e. the boycott years were over) the number of top tier teams in the play down system went up. To be competitive in Canada you have to be playing high quality opponents. The only way to do that is to play on the tour. Entry into the provincial play downs could be down just as much because the barrier to actually be successful has increased so much. Moreover, to deal with this Curling Canada introduced the club curling championships which serve as an overflow for people that don't see themselves competitive for the Brier or STOH anymore.

There are a lot of factors. I believe people ar being too superficial with the idea of residency and the Olympics, and throw in a bit of nostalgia and you have this thread with people complaining about something and coming up wit convoluted solutions when neither are warranted.

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01-30-19 06:34AM
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quote:
Originally posted by SooCurler


Since when was the Brier or the Scotties "finding the best provincial team in Canada" and not finding the "best team in Canada"?

Those competitions are about finding Canada's national champions. Using the provincial model was merely the easiest way to do it in the past. And I have yet to see a compelling argument why removing residency rules would some how make using the provincial play down system invalid or impractical.


Well, you're seeing only what your position, or agenda, allows you to see...

In answer to your above question - since a long, long time ago. If the Brier/Scotties was about finding the 'best team in Canada', there never would have been any provincial residency rules - the only criterion would have been that all 4 (or 5) members of the team be Canadian.

If we allow Alberta natives still living in Alberta to play for Ontario; or Manitoba natives still living in Manitoba to play for Quebec, etc., then the entire thing is a farce. And that's what we have now - because Curling Canada is spineless.
Having a Manitoba native/resident playing for - and thus representing - Quebec at the Brier/Scotties is no different than having Edin or Tirinzoni playing for - and representing - Canada at the World Championships. It's blatant misrepresentation.

Simply put, it's absurd.

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01-30-19 12:54PM
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Charley Thomas and Adam Casey are together now? and in Ontario? Manalive - those two move around. PEI SK AB ON - have I missed any?

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01-30-19 01:04PM
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quote:
Originally posted by On The Nose

Well, you're seeing only what your position, or agenda, allows you to see...

In answer to your above question - since a long, long time ago. If the Brier/Scotties was about finding the 'best team in Canada', there never would have been any provincial residency rules - the only criterion would have been that all 4 (or 5) members of the team be Canadian.

If we allow Alberta natives still living in Alberta to play for Ontario; or Manitoba natives still living in Manitoba to play for Quebec, etc., then the entire thing is a farce. And that's what we have now - because Curling Canada is spineless.
Having a Manitoba native/resident playing for - and thus representing - Quebec at the Brier/Scotties is no different than having Edin or Tirinzoni playing for - and representing - Canada at the World Championships. It's blatant misrepresentation.

Simply put, it's absurd.



Telling me I'm not seeing your point of view then appealing to nostalgia and absurdity isn't going to convince me. Its a rather lacking argument and honestly a logical fallacy.

With regards to having provincial play downs in the past is proof of intention of finding a best province is also lacking. Laws and rules are born out of the time they are needed. Original residency rules also were developed in a time when travel and communication were much reduced compared to now. Driving forces would have been to keep people in their provinces to keep talent spread out as the number of superstar players was much lower. Associations like Saskatchewan and Northern Ontario would want to hold onto their teams rather than let them go elsewhere. Where you see a top down intention I see a bottom up intention. Ultimately, an appeal to original intent and history needs to be sidelined. As its built purely on the past and opinions. No different than a strict constitutionalism trying to interpret the 2nd US Amendment.

More realistically, as with any law or rule the social zeitgeist is generally the driving factor. As it stands now, in the way the sport has evolved. The Brier and STOH are a national championship designed to find the best teams in Canada. That is how they are viewed. Residency rules are archaic and hindering competition. Other than an appeal to nostalgia as to why they are good and removing them honestly cannot be linked to any negative forces in curling. And can arguably be linked to positive forces. I.e. diversifying competition in provinces, creating a competitive homogenization and improving the quality of play across the board from lower tier teams to upper tier teams. Market forces (travel costs, competition level) will keep most of it in check. You won't have people running all over Canada to compete and the majority of teams will have 2 or more players whose primary residence is in the province they are competing in. Which is happening NOW anyways and proves my point. Hence, when I have said that the rules are not being followed now and the sky isn't falling (well other than apparently upsetting your sensibilities).

Taking that paragraph as a whole, I have a great deal of trouble seeing an argument from you that at all has approached my points regarding the current de facto state of residency rules nor any arguments to suggest that there will be rampant polarization of competitiveness in the Country. And finally, to your appeal to absurdity. Curlers are already getting out to support teams in their province that have mixed residency. People support the players and personalities as much as they support where they are from. There are plenty of examples (John Morris) of people who have transplanted themselves and been fully supported. So while I dismissed the appeal out of hand, I don't even think it stands up under even the slightest scrutiny.

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Deliverer
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I advocate no residency rules whatsoever for Canadian teams which participate in any curling event with the exception of teams which participate in the Brier or Scotties. For those teams I would seriously strengthen the existing residential rules by no longer offering or providing any of the exemptions or exceptions to curlers for matters related to location, work, education, proximity to borders etc., etc. Additionally, the winners of these two event would no longer represent Canada at the World's Men's or Women's. Instead I'd send the winners of the Canada Cup of Curling to the Worlds; the winners of the Olympic Trials to the Olympics. Providing it doesn't open up another can of worms, consideration could be given towards offering the Brier and Scotties winners an automatic entry into another major event such as The Player's or the Humpty's Champion Cup.

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