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04-04-13 02:11PM |
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Frykenstein
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Mar 2009
Location:
Posts: 61 |
quote: Originally posted by TJNCJ
When will the US teams start developing monster front ends like the Canadians (men and women). Brady can lead the skips in percentages but when the front end are both 12th it is tough to compete.
I mean that as no offense to our guys, but the US needs to find guys who want to commit to be good front end players and not added in after a skip and vice get together.
TJ,
I'm not sure I understand your point. No matter how they perform this week, who's to say Lehto and Tilker aren't committed to their roles? Or to being good?
Also don't understand what point Fenson illustrates. He's skipped at Worlds or Olys 6 times in the last decade and made the playoffs 3 times. Polo has always been at 2nd. Lead has been Shuster (4x), George, and Brunt. Their RR records were at best 8-3 (Shuster in '05, Tyler in '10), and at worst 2-7 (Shuster in '03). They went 3-8 w/ Brunt in 2011.
Is there a pattern here I'm not seeing?
mf
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04-04-13 03:01PM |
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chapnlie
Swing Artist
Registered: Jan 2005
Location:
Posts: 282 |
quote: Originally posted by Frykenstein
TJ ... Also don't understand what point Fenson illustrates. He's skipped at Worlds or Olys 6 times in the last decade and made the playoffs 3 times. Polo has always been at 2nd. Lead has been Shuster (4x), George, and Brunt. Their RR records were at best 8-3 (Shuster in '05, Tyler in '10), and at worst 2-7 (Shuster in '03). They went 3-8 w/ Brunt in 2011.
Is there a pattern here I'm not seeing?
mf
I get TJ's point: Fenson had the best front end in US curling when he won Olympic bronze. And with Shuster holding the broom for Pete, it freed up Rojeski to combine with Polo into the best sweeping tandem in the US. No sweeping combo in the US has ever come close to those guys--period. When they moved Rojeski to vice skip, they lost that advantage. That sweeping combo was worth 2 points a game when I first saw them together. They also lost some chemistry when Shuster left, as that same youthful cockiness/looseness that drove Pete crazy helped keep everyone loose and playing at their best.
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04-04-13 03:05PM |
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Willy
Drawmaster
Registered: Dec 2005
Location: New York
Posts: 592 |
Yes MF
My Hand selected team, Gemmell, Clark, And George, or if he's interested Plys.. Then the skip thats a little trickier, the last great closer we had was Tim Sommerville, he had some issues but the dude could finish. The greatest shot in USA curling history was his shot against Japan.
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We'll see you on the Ice! Willy
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04-04-13 03:10PM |
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Willy
Drawmaster
Registered: Dec 2005
Location: New York
Posts: 592 |
Stick a fork in it!
You just can't lose to Russia, feel bad for the guys, pressure had to be crazy. They should hold thier heads high and finish with big win over Norway and DA Pants....
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We'll see you on the Ice! Willy
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04-04-13 03:13PM |
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TJNCJ
Swing Artist
Registered: Nov 2008
Location:
Posts: 209 |
I never meant these guys aren't committed, obviously they are. They are national champions and excellent curlers. The last thing I meant to do was put their accomplishments down.
My point is who other than the mentioned Polo and Rojeski said I am going to be the best sweeper, the best front end in the US?
What if we had some great curlers committ to be the next Huff and Puff or Weagle with her magical tick shot? We have talent, I just think it is too diluted to compete for medals.
TJ
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04-04-13 03:23PM |
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jhcurl
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: US - CT
Posts: 1431 |
There is still a (slim) chance to make it to the Olys direct. Switzerland would need to lose the next two (Japan, Czech) and Czech Republic would need to not make the playoffs. And we need to beat Norway of course.
Right now with two draws left
Denmark 6-4
Czech Republic 6-4
Norway 5-4
Sweden 6-4
they are all fighting to make a TB for the 3 and 4 spot.
Remaining games:
SUI v JPN DEN v CAN USA v NOR FIN v SCO
CHN v FIN NOR v RUS CAN v SWE SUI v CZE
JH
not quite time for the fat lady, but she is warming up her voice.
GO JAPAN! GO Czech(oslovakia) until the tiebreaker.
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04-04-13 03:29PM |
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Nine Ender
Swing Artist
Registered: Feb 2009
Location:
Posts: 338 |
quote: Originally posted by TJNCJ
I never meant these guys aren't committed, obviously they are. They are national champions and excellent curlers. The last thing I meant to do was put their accomplishments down.
My point is who other than the mentioned Polo and Rojeski said I am going to be the best sweeper, the best front end in the US?
What if we had some great curlers committ to be the next Huff and Puff or Weagle with her magical tick shot? We have talent, I just think it is too diluted to compete for medals.
TJ
You seem to be suggesting that Clark and McCormick are world class skips simply needing better front ends to win world medals. I'm disagreeing strongly with this idea, you need a strong back end pair of players with some success and the good front end players will be attracted to those players.
Such players have to be strong technically, develop strategically over many years of competition, and be willing to sacrifice a good deal of their life to Curling.
What the US needs is stronger back end players. This can only be developed over time and some luck.
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04-04-13 04:06PM |
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misty1
Supreme Champion!
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 6002 |
I hate to say I told you so but ..i did. I couldnt see them challenging for a playoff spot here, the field was to strong and they arent experienced enough . They also arent that strong of a team where they could come in with no experience and surprise everyone.
I do believe that the Tyler George rink would have been stronger reps..Chris was just so off that day of the final though, unable to cap off ends that the front end infront of him set up so well.
It does look like the US will have to qualify to get to the olympics..they should be able to but there will be a fair amount of determined teams there, including germany with a proud history in the sport.
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04-04-13 04:11PM |
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Nine Ender
Swing Artist
Registered: Feb 2009
Location:
Posts: 338 |
Re: Stick a fork in it!
quote: Originally posted by Willy
You just can't lose to Russia, feel bad for the guys, pressure had to be crazy. They should hold thier heads high and finish with big win over Norway and DA Pants....
They seem like a nice bunch of guys who enjoy Curling together having a dream season. I doubt they care about the internet based chatter that likely far exceeds what they expected in themselves this year.
So I don't think the pressure is really there. Teams that seemed truly pressured are the Swiss ( young skip, misses numerous open draws ) and the Russians ( Russian federation could pull their Olympic dream out from under them ). And in a strange way Scotland, which has its own issues with the coaching staff but overcomes this somewhat with talent. Of course, Canada there's the pressure of Gold being the goal every year, but winning the Brier usually means you are capable of dealing with that.
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04-04-13 04:28PM |
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jhcurl
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: US - CT
Posts: 1431 |
Re: Re: Stick a fork in it!
quote: Originally posted by Nine Ender
They seem like a nice bunch of guys who enjoy Curling together having a dream season. I doubt they care about the internet based chatter that likely far exceeds what they expected in themselves this year.
So I don't think the pressure is really there. Teams that seemed truly pressured are the Swiss ( young skip, misses numerous open draws ) and the Russians ( Russian federation could pull their Olympic dream out from under them ). And in a strange way Scotland, which has its own issues with the coaching staff but overcomes this somewhat with talent. Of course, Canada there's the pressure of Gold being the goal every year, but winning the Brier usually means you are capable of dealing with that.
Really, seriously, you need to stop posting about stuff when you are completely and totally clueless. I (and probably most of the knowledgeable US curlers on here) will strongly disagree with you.
There was HUGE pressure on team Clark to perform well enough to keep that Olympic spot. They were representing and holding the hopes of ALL US curlers. If you think that they did not know that and are not aware of the internet chatter, then maybe you need to upgrade from the rotary phone.
There are 15,000 curlers in the US, there are about 100 competitive curlers in the US. Trust me, if Tuck has a hemorrhoid, everyone knows it. It takes about 4 hours for anything involving competitive curling to spread across the entire country. This post will reach the ears of team Clark prior to their game tonight against Norway, which they will win handily.
JH
please, I am begging you, leave the US forum to us.
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04-04-13 04:42PM |
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westcoveroadie
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Dec 2012
Location:
Posts: 28 |
this from the USCA press release, following team USA's win over team scotland:
"At 1-4 we were thinking that there's a remote chance for tiebreakers if we win out," Philip Tilker said about the start of the day. "I know, me personally, I kind of shifted gears. We have every intention of winning our Olympic Trials in November so we need to go out and make sure we have the spot in the Olympics."
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04-04-13 06:04PM |
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AlanMacNeill
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 1064 |
quote:
I do believe that the Tyler George rink would have been stronger reps..Chris was just so off that day of the final though, unable to cap off ends that the front end infront of him set up so well.
Well... unfortunately for him, the George Rink failed to win on the ice...and...to be honest...there's something wrong here...
"George would have been better under the pressure of Worlds, but he failed to win under the pressure of Nationals".
anyone see the issue here?
Plain and simple, we should keep putting our NATIONAL CHAMPIONS out there, both for the Worlds and the Olympics (well, for the Olympics, the victors of the selection tournament arranged between those who have been our NC's and selected other high finishers...the principle is the same...)you win the red white and blue uniform on the ice, not the committee room.
Yep, sometimes that means that our National Team will falter. Sometimes we'll have to qualify for the Olympics. It happens. But guess what, not all of our nation's Handpicked Teams get golds every year either...we always think of the Basketball Dream Teams...but did our handpicked Team Handball team make it to the Olympics? Nope, it didn't. Did our handpicked Men's Field Hockey Team make it? Nope, it didn't.
No matter what selection method we use, the team may or may not perform on the next level when pushed. Heck, the Dream Team isn't perfect. So we should continue being the sport where the best TEAM this year gets to rep our nation, not the sport where some guy who doesn't even play anymore decides which four guys he likes the most and then tries to make them work together as a cohesive team.
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04-04-13 07:00PM |
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misty1
Supreme Champion!
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 6002 |
quote: Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
Well... unfortunately for him, the George Rink failed to win on the ice...and...to be honest...there's something wrong here...
"George would have been better under the pressure of Worlds, but he failed to win under the pressure of Nationals".
anyone see the issue here?
Plain and simple, we should keep putting our NATIONAL CHAMPIONS out there, both for the Worlds and the Olympics (well, for the Olympics, the victors of the selection tournament arranged between those who have been our NC's and selected other high finishers...the principle is the same...)you win the red white and blue uniform on the ice, not the committee room.
Yep, sometimes that means that our National Team will falter. Sometimes we'll have to qualify for the Olympics. It happens. But guess what, not all of our nation's Handpicked Teams get golds every year either...we always think of the Basketball Dream Teams...but did our handpicked Team Handball team make it to the Olympics? Nope, it didn't. Did our handpicked Men's Field Hockey Team make it? Nope, it didn't.
No matter what selection method we use, the team may or may not perform on the next level when pushed. Heck, the Dream Team isn't perfect. So we should continue being the sport where the best TEAM this year gets to rep our nation, not the sport where some guy who doesn't even play anymore decides which four guys he likes the most and then tries to make them work together as a cohesive team.
Im not arguing with that the national champion should be going to worlds..i will argue to the death against a selection process. I was just stating that I think team George would have been stronger reps..thats just my oppinion
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04-04-13 07:09PM |
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AlanMacNeill
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 1064 |
Thank you for the clarification, misty....regretfully, there are some in the community that believe that we should be following a model where some bunch of folks in the USCA and USOC offices decide which 4 (5) people become our National/Olympic teams.
Or, for that matter, who gets to go to Nationals.
Never!
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04-04-13 07:35PM |
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dbsdbs
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2013
Location:
Posts: 812 |
Re: Re: Re: Stick a fork in it!
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jhcurl
[B]
There are 15,000 curlers in the US, there are about 100 competitive curlers in the US. Trust me, if Tuck has a hemorrhoid, everyone knows it. It takes about 4 hours for anything involving competitive curling to spread across the entire country. This post will reach the ears of team Clark prior to their game tonight against Norway, which they will win handily...
Okay, JH, it may take only 4 hours for those 100 competitive curlers to hear news but of the 15000 curlers in the US only a small percentage have any idea how USA is doing in the Worlds. Fact is most of them do not even know that the Worlds is going on. Yes there are lots of new clubs and lots of new curlers, but most of them have no interest beyond their home club.
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04-04-13 08:40PM |
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jhcurl
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: US - CT
Posts: 1431 |
Re: Re: Re: Re: Stick a fork in it!
quote: Originally posted by dbsdbs
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jhcurl
[B]
There are 15,000 curlers in the US, there are about 100 competitive curlers in the US. Trust me, if Tuck has a hemorrhoid, everyone knows it. It takes about 4 hours for anything involving competitive curling to spread across the entire country. This post will reach the ears of team Clark prior to their game tonight against Norway, which they will win handily...
Okay, JH, it may take only 4 hours for those 100 competitive curlers to hear news but of the 15000 curlers in the US only a small percentage have any idea how USA is doing in the Worlds. Fact is most of them do not even know that the Worlds is going on. Yes there are lots of new clubs and lots of new curlers, but most of them have no interest beyond their home club.
Have no idea what that means. Is that a bad thing and the majority should not care about the US in the Worlds or Olys? Is it a good thing that we are not making the Olys directly? Really confused so not sure what the message should be here. If we don't care about competitive curling, then I would certainly hope that your region/state is informing the powers that be that NO money is to be spent on curling at the highest levels.
JH
Please let me know what message you are trying to send.
Last edited by jhcurl on 04-04-13 at 08:44PM
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04-04-13 09:17PM |
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dbsdbs
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2013
Location:
Posts: 812 |
Sorry if I misunderstood you JH. I thought you were suggesting that ALL US curlers were following Team Clark in the Worlds and that news about our competitive curlers would spread quickly among them. I wish that were the case and that more curlers did care about our OLY status. Fact is that could not be more wrong as most US curlers have no interest in competitive curling. Does that mean that NO money should be spent on curling "at the highest levels"? Probably not. Does it mean that most USCA members get nothing for their dues -- absolutely. But that does not mean that I and many [but not thousands] of curlers are not following the Worlds closely.
Yes, it is a disappointing finish for USA but probably not unexpected. And that is not a shot at the Clark rink but rather at USA curling. We have a long ways to go.
Last edited by dbsdbs on 04-04-13 at 10:14PM
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04-04-13 09:28PM |
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AlanMacNeill
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 1064 |
Somebody check me on this...but...if I'm reading correctly...
IF switzerland, china, and norway all lose their final games, 6th is still a possible finish for the US, which would be enough to sneak through to the Olympics.
No?
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04-04-13 09:58PM |
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misty1
Supreme Champion!
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 6002 |
quote: Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
Somebody check me on this...but...if I'm reading correctly...
IF switzerland, china, and norway all lose their final games, 6th is still a possible finish for the US, which would be enough to sneak through to the Olympics.
No?
switzerland is finishing above the US no matter what by virtue of their win over them in the round robin. However if china and norway lose their matches then the US would finish above both in 7th.
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04-04-13 10:05PM |
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AlanMacNeill
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Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 1064 |
I'm not sure that's true, as if they all lost, it's a 4 way tie, which is broken by records within the group, and I think US's 2-1 is superior to the others....or am I misreading Switzerlands?
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04-04-13 10:41PM |
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murphyj87
Swing Artist
Registered: Jan 2007
Location: Dartmouth, NS
Posts: 207 |
Re: Re: Re: Re: Stick a fork in it!
quote: Originally posted by dbsdbs
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jhcurl
[B]
There are 15,000 curlers in the US, there are about 100 competitive curlers in the US.
So the US has 15,000 curlers out of a population of 330,000,000, or 1 curler per 22,000 Americans and a microscopic 100 competitive curlers in the whole nation.
Canada has 1,200,000 curlers out of a population of 34,500,000, or 1 curler per 28.75 Canadians and there are over 100 competitive curlers in a small province like Nova Scotia alone, including over a dozen Canadian championship teams.
Canadian Dan Rafael is coaching the Czech Republic team.
Swede Soren Grahn is coaching the Scots.
Scot James Dryborough is coaching the Danes.
What Americans have always neglected to mention about Pete Fenson's team is that Pete Fenson was successful only when Canadians Ed Lukowich and/or Rob Meakin were running the USCA technical program and Lukowich coached Fenson's team, but since Americans have taken it over, results have slumped badly.
Last edited by murphyj87 on 04-04-13 at 10:56PM
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04-04-13 11:23PM |
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Mr. Ochmonek
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Oct 2012
Location:
Posts: 11 |
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Stick a fork in it!
quote: Originally posted by murphyj87
What Americans have always neglected to mention about Pete Fenson's team is that Pete Fenson was successful only when Canadians Ed Lukowich and/or Rob Meakin were running the USCA technical program and Lukowich coached Fenson's team, but since Americans have taken it over, results have slumped badly.
Lukowich and Meakin were running the US program in the early 90's?
I'm not defending the current program as it's been a complete trainwreck (take the best teams and make them worse) but crowning the Canadians isn't the answer either. We haven't been to a Mens final in 30 years.
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04-04-13 11:34PM |
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Gerry
CZ Founder
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 4002 |
In 2006, Pete Fenson won a Bronze Medal at the Olympics for the USA and in 2007, Todd Birr won a World Bronze Medal.
Since then:
1. China and Russia broke out onto the curling scene, dedicated full time to the game.
2. Czech Republic emerged as a contender, make 2012 and 2013 Euro playoffs, chance at Worlds playoffs.
3. Norway, Sweden, Scotland, and Switzerland curlers funded to play nearly full time.
What does the USA need to do to keep up to these always improving countries?
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04-04-13 11:49PM |
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dbsdbs
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2013
Location:
Posts: 812 |
murphyj87 - we're happy for you. We know that USA is a bit of a johnny-come-lately to curling. So what is your point?
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