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nelski
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Oct 2004
Location: Hill Bottom Corner
Posts: 1603

quote:
Originally posted by ObsessiveCurler
On a separate note, what is the qualifying system for the playoffs? I couldn't really find anything on that subject.
Not sure. But there is "terminology" they use, "Round of 16, or round of 8", at these events. I suspect it will be 16 but I have not seen it either. After that, gulp, it is often a knock out round. Tough format. It would be good to see double knock-out in the second round. Let us know if you find it.

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Old Post 04-26-17 11:04AM
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Squiggsy
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Registered: Apr 2008
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quote:
Originally posted by nelski
Using the crutch or tuck-support non-broom is a distinct disadvantage in this sport. At this level - maybe those kinds of curlers should be encouraged to use a broom for the slide, so they can sweep. Also observed that better teams are line-calling every shot - house or hack, and have this planned and it is second nature.


quote:
Originally posted by ObsessiveCurler


I was thinking the exact same thing when watching the CAN-CZE game on Monday. Having one player sweep EVERY stone is a disadvantage no matter how great of a sweeper Joanne is.

On a separate note, what is the qualifying system for the playoffs? I couldn't really find anything on that subject.



You are contradicting yourselves. If you want someone calling the line on every shot, you can only have one sweeper. You only need one sweeper for anything above draw weight. Whether the thrower gets up and sweeps his/her own rock, or the other player starts at the throwing end, you don't need two sweepers for most shots. I prefer to have both players at the same end, and not have someone holding the broom, but that's a personal preference.

If the person throwing is calling the line, why do they need a sweeping brush?

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Old Post 04-26-17 01:28PM
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Three
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Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 250

quote:
Originally posted by nelski
Not sure. But there is "terminology" they use, "Round of 16, or round of 8", at these events. I suspect it will be 16 but I have not seen it either. After that, gulp, it is often a knock out round. Tough format. It would be good to see double knock-out in the second round. Let us know if you find it.


Last year there were six groups and top three in each group made playoffs (after tie-breaker games within two groups to decide third spot). Then they somehow had two Qualification Games where they somehow decided the four lowest third place teams which got them down to 16 teams for a single elimination knock-out.

This year again it is clearly shown in the competition schedule on the website for the event that 16 teams (somehow) qualify and from there on in it is single elimination.

Last year they had 42 teams, this year mercifully down to 39. Good assumption is top 3 in each of the five pools make the playoffs and then they somehow determine the "best" 4th place to get the required 16 teams for the playoffs. Seeding really does matter in the playoffs so Canada's loss to Czech means they will encounter a "better" team earlier. Winning the rest of their games to finish second in the pool would be helpful (ie beat the USA)

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Old Post 04-26-17 01:38PM
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MCC_PE
Hitting Paint

Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 137

You can lose and still get Olympic Qualification Points, if you win enough other games in the finals.

http://www.worldcurling.org/downloa...1mRPJlRad1UrplV

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Old Post 04-26-17 02:23PM
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ObsessiveCurler
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Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Cornwall
Posts: 1957

quote:
Originally posted by nelski
Not sure. But there is "terminology" they use, "Round of 16, or round of 8", at these events. I suspect it will be 16 but I have not seen it either. After that, gulp, it is often a knock out round. Tough format. It would be good to see double knock-out in the second round. Let us know if you find it.


From what I've heard, the top 3 teams in each pool qualify for the Round of 16. That would make 15 teams since there are 5 pools.
In order to get the 16th team in, the best 4th place team in each pool qualifies for the playoffs based on their Draw Shot Challenge.

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Old Post 04-26-17 03:07PM
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misty1
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canada with 2 pretty big escapes there. they could very easily be 3-3 right now. 4-2 at the worst.

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Old Post 04-26-17 05:17PM
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nelski
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playoff round will be tough for Team Canada. SCO then LAT(or SWE). If they can get two wins - I think they should qualify. A loss to SCO will make OLY qualification unlikely. Of course, it depends who else in top 7 lose. Good luck Tame Canada

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Old Post 04-28-17 09:41AM
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tapfreeze
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Dec 2015
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quote:
Originally posted by nelski
playoff round will be tough for Team Canada. SCO then LAT(or SWE). If they can get two wins - I think they should qualify. A loss to SCO will make OLY qualification unlikely. Of course, it depends who else in top 7 lose. Good luck Tame Canada


Remember it's top 7 that get in and you remove England & Ireland from the ranking list and Estonia, Austria, and Slovakia did not qualify for the playoffs. Olympic Rankings

Canada currently sits 5th. I think if they finish anywhere in the top 8 they are guaranteed a spot and realistically if they place top 10 they should be good, no?

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Old Post 04-28-17 10:44AM
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RockDoc
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Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:
Originally posted by nelski
Using the crutch or tuck-support non-broom is a distinct disadvantage in this sport. At this level - maybe those kinds of curlers should be encouraged to use a broom for the slide, so they can sweep. Also observed that better teams are line-calling every shot - house or hack, and have this planned and it is second nature.


I'm not sure I agree that delivering without a brush is a disadvantage. I might even argue the reverse. There is as yet no consensus among top mixed doubles teams which is the best approach:

Teammate at far end: advantages-you get an accurate target to aim at; good positioning for line-calling; disadvantage-you will probably not be able to sweep a stone until it is about half-way don the ice, which could be critical on a light draw or tight come-around.

Teammate at near end: advantages-you get sweeping the full length of the ice if needed; safer and possibly more effective two-gripper sweeping; disadvantages-no target to aim at; line-calling position not as ideal

Some teams use a hybrid method: teammate at near end for draws, at far end for hits.

Our mixed doubles team curls with stabilizers, and uses the teammate-at-near-end arrangement. Not having a target at the far end has not proven to be a significant problem. Having a sweeper at your disposal the length of the ice is a significant factor in making precise draws. This system has worked very well for us. YMMV.

At the club level, I much prefer the teammate-at-near-end model, as it is safer for most curlers. Line-calling is better in this model if the shooter follows the sweeper down the ice, especially if using directional sweeping, where the sweeper is usually positioned behind the rock.

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Old Post 04-28-17 10:57AM
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biterbar
Drawmaster

Registered: Mar 2009
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I find it hard to understand that only 8 teams make the Olympics in Mixed Doubles when they bring in 3 or 4 dozen for worlds. I take it the format is a round robin with 4 qualifiers?

The USA looks good with 10 points from last years 3rd place finish and Becca and Matt curling well.

Canada looks pretty safe with a win in their first game, but I haven't run all the iterations. Finland and Norway need some wins and quite a few teams need a top three finish for a chance at qualifying.

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Old Post 04-28-17 11:19AM
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RaiseDoubleFTW
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Apr 2013
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There's way too many possible combinations to check, but I'm fairly sure that Canada reaching the quarter-finals just now means that they should be safe for Olympic Qualification.

I'm also a Brit so I'm on the edge of my seat for Scotland to pick up some points in the B-side now.

One thing that has worked in both Canada and GB's favour is how the draw for the last 16 panned out. From the 16 teams, the ten with the lowest points from 2016 all ended up playing each other guaranteeing that five teams would almost certainly not be able to overtake the 9 and 8 points Canada and GB had from 2016.

And of the five that win those games the ones with 0 from 2016 would still have to win their QF game as well to guarantee a 9pt minimum total.

Fingers crossed I'll be watching GB v Canada come Feb 2018!

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Old Post 04-28-17 01:05PM
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GregJP
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Registered: Mar 2006
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What a weird competition. Canada is in the group of death and almost don't qualify. Then they play a perfect game a take out Scotland who were 7-0 in the round robin. Then the US (also 7-0) choke against Finland in the round of 16.

Hopefully Stoughton and Carruthers have figured out the strategy for this dumb game, because during the round robin Canada made some boneheaded decisions.

Now that the pressure is off as far as Olympic qualifying I see them cruising to the gold medal.

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Old Post 04-28-17 04:32PM
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misty1
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canada has been pretty unconvincing so far. really lucky to get out of the group

id favor them to beat latvia but i doubt they'll win it all. some of these other teams look really good and have the benefit of years of experience.

pretty crushing losses for the US and hungary. would be weird not see hungary at the olympics given how good they are in this discipline so i hope they can get the points. by my calculation though they need at least 5th.

russia would also be in trouble

this is the problem with only letting 7 other teams in. russia, switzerland and hungary have undoubtedly been the best 3 nations in this event since its inception and if even one is missing it would feel wrong

Last edited by misty1 on 04-28-17 at 04:39PM

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Old Post 04-28-17 04:37PM
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Squiggsy
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Registered: Apr 2008
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quote:
Originally posted by GregJP
What a weird competition. Canada is in the group of death and almost don't qualify. Then they play a perfect game a take out Scotland who were 7-0 in the round robin. Then the US (also 7-0) choke against Finland in the round of 16.

Hopefully Stoughton and Carruthers have figured out the strategy for this dumb game, because during the round robin Canada made some boneheaded decisions.

Now that the pressure is off as far as Olympic qualifying I see them cruising to the gold medal.



Canada wasn't in any danger of not qualifying for the playoffs, especially after they beat England. They had a shot at 1st place until about halfway through their final game.

I like mixed doubles. I find it more entertaining to watch than traditional curling. I like how little time there is between ends, and how TSN is forced to show all rocks of the end. In traditional curling, even at the Brier and Scotties, even in the final end, lead rocks seldom make TV. They are too busy showing the hot shots replay for the 900th time, or one of Vic's horrific montages. I wouldn't give up playing traditional curling to focus only on doubles, but I've enjoyed playing and watching the game. There is tons of strategy, from rock placement, where the sweeper is, and which order to throw. I hope it expands greatly.

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Old Post 04-28-17 04:43PM
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GregJP
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Registered: Mar 2006
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I don't understand why the Olympics is only eight teams when there are so many competitive countries in mixed doubles.

I realize that the men's and women's competition takes up many days of the calendar, but surely there was a way to have 12 or 16 teams.

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Old Post 04-28-17 04:45PM
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GregJP
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Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:
Originally posted by Squiggsy


Canada wasn't in any danger of not qualifying for the playoffs, especially after they beat England. They had a shot at 1st place until about halfway through their final game.



You are completely wrong. They almost lost to Germany and had to steal to beat England. Lose either of those games and they are 4-3 and toast as far as making the playoffs.

As far as I understand they had no chance to finish first. If they beat the US in the last round robin game there is a three way tie for first at 6-1 and they had the worst DCS of the three teams. Unless what I heard was wrong they were destined for third place in the group regardless of the outcome of the last game.

What sucked was drawing Scotland in the round of 16. Based on shooting percentages they were two of the top four teams. As it turns out it sucked for Scotland.

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Old Post 04-28-17 04:51PM
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misty1
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quote:
Originally posted by Squiggsy


Canada wasn't in any danger of not qualifying for the playoffs, especially after they beat England. They had a shot at 1st place until about halfway through their final game.

I like mixed doubles. I find it more entertaining to watch than traditional curling. I like how little time there is between ends, and how TSN is forced to show all rocks of the end. In traditional curling, even at the Brier and Scotties, even in the final end, lead rocks seldom make TV. They are too busy showing the hot shots replay for the 900th time, or one of Vic's horrific montages. I wouldn't give up playing traditional curling to focus only on doubles, but I've enjoyed playing and watching the game. There is tons of strategy, from rock placement, where the sweeper is, and which order to throw. I hope it expands greatly.



canada actually was in very real danger. if england had beaten them and they still lost to the US they would have finished 4th in the group. united states, czech republic and england would have advanced and it would have been down to whether or not their draw shot challenge would have been better than ireland's and im not sure that it was. this is why i say they are seriously lucky to have even qualified. the england miss and the german collapse

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Old Post 04-28-17 04:59PM
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misty1
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Registered: Sep 2011
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quote:
Originally posted by GregJP
I don't understand why the Olympics is only eight teams when there are so many competitive countries in mixed doubles.

I realize that the men's and women's competition takes up many days of the calendar, but surely there was a way to have 12 or 16 teams.



i do suspect that if mixed doubles does well next year , as in attracts a lot of interest we'll see them expand the field for 2022. its just not fair to keep it at 8. i can think of a good dozen countries in contention to win worlds in a given year.

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Old Post 04-28-17 05:02PM
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nelski
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Okay. I see there is a B-side to the Round of 16. Whew! I was so relieved to see CDA get that win over SCO. To me, that has greatly increased their chance of qualifying for the OLYS. I realize some think they were never in danger, but only seven slots can dramatically diminish a team's chances and hopefully, this puts them forward. Unlike Misty1, I'm not overly confident for them to def LAT. But I wannit. Go CDA Go.

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Old Post 04-28-17 05:50PM
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Squiggsy
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quote:
Originally posted by GregJP


As far as I understand they had no chance to finish first. If they beat the US in the last round robin game there is a three way tie for first at 6-1 and they had the worst DCS of the three teams. Unless what I heard was wrong they were destined for third place in the group regardless of the outcome of the last game.





On TV they said Canada could have finished first with a Czech loss to France, but what you are saying makes sense based on the DSC standings. Once Czechs beat France was when they said Canada finished 3rd no matter what, but it looks like they would have been 3rd even if France won.

quote:
Originally posted by GregJP


You are completely wrong. They almost lost to Germany and had to steal to beat England. Lose either of those games and they are 4-3 and toast as far as making the playoffs.




quote:
Originally posted by misty1


canada actually was in very real danger. if england had beaten them and they still lost to the US they would have finished 4th in the group. united states, czech republic and england would have advanced and it would have been down to whether or not their draw shot challenge would have been better than ireland's and im not sure that it was. this is why i say they are seriously lucky to have even qualified. the england miss and the german collapse




I am in no way, shape, or form, completely wrong. Well in that case, if they lost every game, they wouldn't make the playoffs. You're sounding like Vic when he says that "yellow has the stolen point now, and it's the game winner", but there are still seven rocks left in the end. I'm going to guess those seven rocks will help decide the end, especially if that yellow rock is wide open.

Canada clinched the playoffs by beating England. It's really hypothetical to say if they lost to one team they beat, but still lost to another team, they'd be out. They had some close games, which a lot of curling games are, but won enough to get in. If they had lost to England, they probably play the game against the US differently. Instead of focusing on their almost losses, and the losses, why not say they almost beat the Czechs. If they had won that game they'd have been 4-0. They almost got first place if you want to follow a similar path of logic you two were on. If they beat the Czechs, and Hamilton's last shot doesn't get by the guard, they are 7-0. A team that "almost" goes 7-0 isn't in danger of missing the playoffs. There are so many hypotheticals you could make up, but they were never almost missing the playoffs. Giving up a 3 in the first end doesn't mean you almost lost the game.

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Old Post 04-28-17 05:53PM
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GregJP
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They were a hell of a lot closer to 3-4 than 7-0. did you actually watch any of the games?

I think it came down to a few strategy mistakes and a bit of bad luck, but they really came close to not making the playoffs. Their percentages were quite high, but their opponents always seemed to make that one key shot a couple of times every game.

They were amazing against Scotland today. I felt sorry for the Scots who deserved a better fate after going 7-0 in their group. If Canada plays the way they played today going forward they'll win the gold.

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Old Post 04-28-17 05:59PM
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nelski
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quote:
Originally posted by GregJP
If Canada plays the way they played today going forward they'll win the gold.

I don't get the video - but did watch them in the Nationals (online) and am glad to hear that they are playing solid. A lot of pressure is on these two athletes. They have the full package - they just have to put it together. Go Jeff Reid Jo Go. Use your mental strengths. That's what Reid said they had in their favour in a pre-event interview. It is true. Dig deep Team Canada.

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Old Post 04-28-17 06:06PM
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GregJP
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I looked at the point totals from last year and what's possible this year and Canada are definitely in. There is no mathematical way to not finish in the top 7. Great Britain and the US are also fairly safe despite their losses earlier today.

Only a weird combination of results will leave them out of the top 7. So Russia, China, Canada, Great Britain, and USA are pretty much in with the hosts South Korea.

The lasts two spots are up for grab with Finland and Norway having the inside track. Latvia, Switzerland, and the Czech Republic basically need to get to the final to have a realistic chance.

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Old Post 04-28-17 06:07PM
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RaiseDoubleFTW
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Apr 2013
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quote:
Originally posted by nelski
Okay. I see there is a B-side to the Round of 16. Whew! I was so relieved to see CDA get that win over SCO. To me, that has greatly increased their chance of qualifying for the OLYS. I realize some think they were never in danger, but only seven slots can dramatically diminish a team's chances and hopefully, this puts them forward. Unlike Misty1, I'm not overly confident for them to def LAT. But I wannit. Go CDA Go.


Thanks to the fact that all 8 of the teams with zero points from 2016 played either another 0 team or Norway or Ireland (4 & 1 pts from 2016 respectively) it makes it almost impossible that Canada haven't already qualified.

They already have a guaranteed 13 pts (8 from 2016 and at worst 5 for 8th place here).

5 teams in the B-side can get to either 5 or 4 maximum.
3 teams in the A-side have 0 so only one of them can get over 13 by winning the whole thing.

That makes 7 teams guaranteed to be below Canada.

GB can only tie with Canada by getting 9th place and they would lose the tie-break by placing lower at this year's event so that's 8 below Canada.

I could go on, but suffice to say it's a very narrow set of circumstances that would lead to Canada not qualifying. Not least of which the above is based on Canada coming 8th of the remaining 8 e.g. they lose three games straight, which I think is very unlikely.

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Old Post 04-28-17 06:13PM
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misty1
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quote:
Originally posted by Squiggsy




On TV they said Canada could have finished first with a Czech loss to France, but what you are saying makes sense based on the DSC standings. Once Czechs beat France was when they said Canada finished 3rd no matter what, but it looks like they would have been 3rd even if France won.






I am in no way, shape, or form, completely wrong. Well in that case, if they lost every game, they wouldn't make the playoffs. You're sounding like Vic when he says that "yellow has the stolen point now, and it's the game winner", but there are still seven rocks left in the end. I'm going to guess those seven rocks will help decide the end, especially if that yellow rock is wide open.

Canada clinched the playoffs by beating England. It's really hypothetical to say if they lost to one team they beat, but still lost to another team, they'd be out. They had some close games, which a lot of curling games are, but won enough to get in. If they had lost to England, they probably play the game against the US differently. Instead of focusing on their almost losses, and the losses, why not say they almost beat the Czechs. If they had won that game they'd have been 4-0. They almost got first place if you want to follow a similar path of logic you two were on. If they beat the Czechs, and Hamilton's last shot doesn't get by the guard, they are 7-0. A team that "almost" goes 7-0 isn't in danger of missing the playoffs. There are so many hypotheticals you could make up, but they were never almost missing the playoffs. Giving up a 3 in the first end doesn't mean you almost lost the game.



they were pretty unconvincing in the round robin and yes, for a minute there there was a scary moment where it looked like they could be eliminated in the group phase. quite frankly they were closer to being 4-3 or even 3-4 than they were to being 7-0

and i still dont think they're favorites for gold

just curious as to how many of these games you saw and how many you're judging by scoreline watching

Last edited by misty1 on 04-28-17 at 08:14PM

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