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05-24-16 04:40PM
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Three
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WCF Sweeping Summit 2016 near Ottawa is underway

The sweeping summit has begun at the North Grenville Curling Club which is in Kemptville (about 30 minutes south of Ottawa). A list of which curler's and officials attending the summit is contained in the link below:

http://www.worldcurling.org/participants-ss2016

Also, NRC is there so at least some unbiased data collection will be going on. (NRC = National Research Council). I'd like to know if this is open to the public to view?

They also released a partial results of the sweeping survey:

"With around 5,000 submissions those who took the survey were clear on the following points:

= A curling shot is more about the thrower than the sweepers
= Sweeping in curling is not meant for slowing down a stone or backing it up"

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05-24-16 11:52PM
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Good to see someone has recognized real science was needed and brought in the NRC.

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05-26-16 07:19PM
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Wish they had your average club curlers involved too. Making rules based on elite curlers that affect the general curling public seems stupid.

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05-26-16 08:48PM
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That's a fair point. But it may be more a matter of time constraints with collecting the data.

As long as the testing is proper, unbiased and thorough (equipment and technique) plus we all have access to all the findings, I'm okay with it.

Would like to know the rest of the survey results though. Not sure what the secrecy is about.

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05-26-16 09:57PM
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The thing is, basing broom standards on numbers they get from top level elite curlers such as Hebert and Kennedy in no way compare to the average club curler. If the slams want to take the information and apply it to their events that is fine but for about 99% of curlers the findings will not be representative. Also most club curlers can't afford to switch equipment everytime a whim strikes the governing bodies. The testing is biased to an unreal demographic.

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05-26-16 11:33PM
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Miz5508
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Slightly off topic, I was reading one of the articles about this event http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/...sting-1.3599668

The fist image in this article shows a broom that I don't recognize (no not the electro broom with the data collector on it)

Miz5508 has attached this image:

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05-27-16 12:19AM
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Tour Guide
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I believe the brush in the picture you don't recognize is the new Goldline brush that I was shown a prototype of when the rep visited me at Vancouver CC a few weeks ago. The head is new with a Norway type pad that is smaller and thinner than the current one.

There are no screws or bolts to hold the head or pad in place. The stem of the head has slats that expand out and are designed to hold the head tight enough in the shaft to keep it in place, but also allow you to simply pull it off.

Seeing this new head and the success of the Hardline head, I suspect the Performance oval type head that has been standard on so many brushes in recent years may be on its way out. Manufacturers are coming up with lighter heads now to lighten brushes, I believe, especially since the carbon fibre shafts may not leave much room for making brushes much lighther

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05-27-16 03:44AM
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On The Nose
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quote:
Originally posted by Tour Guide

Seeing this new head and the success of the Hardline head, I suspect the Performance oval type head that has been standard on so many brushes in recent years may be on its way out. Manufacturers are coming up with lighter heads now to lighten brushes, I believe, especially since the carbon fibre shafts may not leave much room for making brushes much lighther


I saw that Performance will be coming out with a new product named 'Spyder', being released in August/September. I believe it is a new type of brush head (which holds the pad), or perhaps it's the pad itself. Rather than putting the focus on the material, the 'Spyder' is placing the focus on extending the pressure points across the entire brush pad. That's the marketing, in any case...
From what I recall, it will be the same oval size and shape as Performance has made over the past several years.

I briefly saw a printed marketing promotion of the 'Spyder' a couple of months ago, but my recollection is, as you see, somewhat vague. And there doesn't seem to be much information about it on this internet thing.

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Last edited by On The Nose on 05-27-16 at 03:50AM

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05-27-16 08:49AM
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AlanMacNeill
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quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
Wish they had your average club curlers involved too. Making rules based on elite curlers that affect the general curling public seems stupid.


It's a scientific method thing. to study a question, you eliminate as many variables as you can.

And frankly, the "average club curler"'s sweeping effectiveness isn't going to be affected by any of these rules in any dramatic way.

To "damage" the ice, you have to use a specific technique, correctly and well. The "average" club curler doesn't have that technique. They might have 10% of it, maybe even 50% of it, but that ain't enough to make the difference they are attempting to study in this study.

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05-27-16 10:52AM
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dugless_zone 13
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quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill


It's a scientific method thing. to study a question, you eliminate as many variables as you can.

And frankly, the "average club curler"'s sweeping effectiveness isn't going to be affected by any of these rules in any dramatic way.

To "damage" the ice, you have to use a specific technique, correctly and well. The "average" club curler doesn't have that technique. They might have 10% of it, maybe even 50% of it, but that ain't enough to make the difference they are attempting to study in this study.



Yep, know all that Alan. The point I'm making is that any information that this study comes up with, based on top level sweepers, does not translate to the average curler. Therefore making rules that apply to club curlers from information gathered solely from elite curlers is biased. A club curler being banned from using a certain broomhead because an elite player may be able to control a rock more with said broomhead makes no sense. If Slam events or the Brier or other national or world championships feel the need to impose special rules for their events and the elite players that compete in them great, have at it, but the regular club event player should not be forced to purchase new and expensive equipment based on a whim of a few.

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05-27-16 10:59AM
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Umm....if anything, we're gonna end up such that the "average club player" doens't *have* to buy the expensive equipment.

At least at my club, the carbon fiber and high tech heads have started to trickle in over the past couple of seasons, and it's left those of us who like our old brushes and heads a bit behind.

I think we're gonna end up with something akin to golf....sure you *can* drop $5K on a set of titanium forged custom fitted clubs, but the difference between those and the $200 steel set you got at the Dicks isn't worth the cost unless you want to play on the Tour. But they all gotta follow the same rules to be "conforming"

And I'm okay with that.

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05-27-16 01:37PM
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dugless_zone 13
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Here in the real world, Canada, many players club and otherwise already use carbon fiber high tech brooms (Balance plus, goldline,hardline etc). The expensive part I am talking about is being told that the head size or shape is non conforming due to a new and arbitrary rule that the Curling Canada or the WCF makes up based on testing at this summit. People already owning expensive equipment may be forced to buy new equipment to conform, something club players might not be able to afford.

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05-27-16 03:13PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
... The expensive part I am talking about is being told that the head size or shape is non conforming due to a new and arbitrary rule that the Curling Canada or the WCF makes up based on testing at this summit....


It's incorrect to consider a rule based on testing to be arbitrary.

The correct logic is, in fact, the other way around.

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05-27-16 03:41PM
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The fact that the group being tested represent an incredibly small and totally unrepresentative sampling of the the curling world does mean results and rules made from said results are indeed arbitrary.

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05-27-16 04:26PM
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Three
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Summit is complete. You can read the WCF statement below by clicking on the link. Sounds like the curlers were pretty impressed by what went on. I doubt we will get the results anytime soon but one quote was revealing.

http://www.worldcurling.org/conclusion-ss2016

Swiss curler, and current World Womens Curling champion, Christine Urech said: "All the players were absolutely motivated to find a solution to the sweeping problem. We tested different pads from different manufacturers looking at how to keep the stone straight, make it curl more, travel further or shorter distances. We looked at different materials with different textures and levels of waterproofing and what does and does not damage the ice. We are happy that we have found a great suggestion which will solve the problem and let us look forward to next season."

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05-27-16 08:17PM
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Read the link. Lots of warm fuzzy statements but no hard facts or an explanation of this 'suggestion' alluded to in the release.

Seeing as the players who participated are curlers like all of this there is no reason for the suggestion not to be revealed. There is no need for secrecy.

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05-27-16 09:49PM
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JustAnotherHack
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quote:
Originally posted by jamcan
Read the link. Lots of warm fuzzy statements but no hard facts or an explanation of this 'suggestion' alluded to in the release.

Seeing as the players who participated are curlers like all of this there is no reason for the suggestion not to be revealed. There is no need for secrecy.



Ain't that the truth.

We have a possible solution, but we're going to keep it quiet. Sheesh... next time don't bother with the press release.

I am a bit worried that they have already analyzed the data they collected and came up with solutions... I know the NRC are a reputable organization, but that seems just a bit quick.

And there is some validity in the questions regarding who was doing the sweeping and so on. Whatever bans and proposed rule changes the powers that be come up with may only "officially" apply to competitive events, they wind up being applied to club level events and leagues as well, or regional events (I'm looking at you OVCA).

Anyway, I'm looking forward to the NRC report. Not necessarily to the **** that the WCF tends to put out in their press releases...

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05-29-16 01:30PM
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Grat
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Even though your average club curler may not be able to steer a rock they play against above average club curlers who can. If you leave things as they are you're going to get an even wider gap between those groups, and the use of those techniques will become even more widespread.

When it's time for a bonspiel what's another $25 brush pad or cover on top of entry fee, raffle tickets, gas, hotel room, beer, etc.

I would also like to think that the testing included samples of the elite curlers taking it easy to simulate a recreational curler.

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05-29-16 03:01PM
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There are most likely over a million curlers worldwide ( conservative estimate, with the number of elite level curlers making up less than one percent of the overall number. Trying to claim that Ben Hebert or Mark Kennedy are representative of a fifty year old female club curler is silly. They now have information they can use to apply rules governing events such as the Brier, the Worlds and if they want, the Slams. Change the sweeping rules first, tighten them up and see where things are. Test to see how the average curler does with current equipment and then decide after a year if sweeping rules took care of the problem or if equipment changes are necessary. It's not just about buying a new pad, what happens if the Governing bodies decide that the broomheads are too large or certain shapes are not allowed, then it's new broom time for people.

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05-30-16 12:24AM
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quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
There are most likely over a million curlers worldwide ( conservative estimate, with the number of elite level curlers making up less than one percent of the overall number. Trying to claim that Ben Hebert or Mark Kennedy are representative of a fifty year old female club curler is silly. They now have information they can use to apply rules governing events such as the Brier, the Worlds and if they want, the Slams. Change the sweeping rules first, tighten them up and see where things are. Test to see how the average curler does with current equipment and then decide after a year if sweeping rules took care of the problem or if equipment changes are necessary. It's not just about buying a new pad, what happens if the Governing bodies decide that the broomheads are too large or certain shapes are not allowed, then it's new broom time for people.

But, at the same time, who exactly is the "average curler"?
I don't feel that a 50 year old female represents me any more than Hebert or Kennedy do. And what about the 73 year old senoir? He does not represent me, either. Clubs are full of senior players (at least here in Canada) - so, to be fair, they should be represented, too, shouldn't they be?

I understand your point that elite players shouldn't be the only ones to help determine rules for everyone... But my question is 'How realistic and feasible is it to get a true sampling of the "average curler"'? Is there even such a thing as the "average curler? Given the samples we've both mentioned, I think it's quite difficult to average things out to determine what/who the "average curler" is. Taking this into consideration, I believe it's better to determine rules based on a higher standard (elite level curlers) than on a lower one.

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Last edited by On The Nose on 05-30-16 at 12:26AM

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06-03-16 04:37PM
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Miz5508
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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Has anyone heard anything good? Spill yer guts!

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06-05-16 09:11PM
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ok, let's start off the discussions.

I've heard a few things have come from the summit. I will not officially confirm or deny how true these are as I can not reveal my sources.

1) control of material seem to be the way things are moving. One official fabric for all heads.

2) a new fabric was brought to the summit. in testing it limited the ability to "carve" rocks to almost nothing. info of who brought it forward and a name haven't been released. and has not been previously used for broom heads as of yet. so not its not the cordura we are use to.

3) there may be a limit on colours as well as they have found darker coloured materials had stronger effects then lighter.

4) athletes made it clear they didn't want officials involved in ruling on sweeping motions during game play. so I would assume no rules will effect motion of the broom head.

5) the new material as well is suppose to be equal in drag effect, as men can drag 10ft and woman can drag 8ft.

With the WCF not meeting till sept, I would suggest not going out and buying any heads till all the smoke has cleared.

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06-05-16 09:34PM
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recboy, assuming your sources are right, then I think that this is mostly as expected, except I am surprised to hear that color has an effect. I suppose certain dyes have a different chemical structure that makes the bonds more "sharp".

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06-05-16 09:39PM
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curlky,

yeah I was surprised as well about the colour theory. the only other thing id add to that is the basic idea of the darker colour hold the heat longer making it more effective. kinda like the whole wearing a black shirt in the summer idea. its a bit of a stretch but it may be a consideration.

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06-05-16 10:10PM
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I *really* gotta see the controlled numbers to believe that color of fabric makes a difference....because heat doesn't work like that...

aside from that though, the rest makes sense...keep the officials out of judging the technique, make a level playing field for the equipment and make it go.

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Curling Scores

W: USA Curling Junior National Championships
Eau Claire, WI
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: W5 -- Thu, Mar 28 -- 8:00am CT
Giroux Final
Schapman (7) Watch Live Curling!
Johnson 10  Final
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Berg Final
Viau (9) Watch Live Curling!
Pekowitz 11  Final
Berg (7) Watch Live Curling!
M: USA Curling Junior National Championships
Eau Claire, WI
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: M6 -- Thu, Mar 28 -- 12:00pm CT
Church  
Rose    Watch Live Curling!
Brenden  
Guentzel    Watch Live Curling!
Fitzgerald  
Hebert    Watch Live Curling!
Lannoye  
Cenzalli  
M: Canadian Mixed Doubles Curling Championship
Fredericton, NB
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Draw: CF -- Fri, Mar 22 -- 1:00pm AT
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Walk/Muyr (8) Watch Live Curling!
M: Swiss Junior Championships
Thun, SUI
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Draw: CF2 -- Sun, Mar 24 -- 3:00am ET
Caccivio Final
Brauchli 12  (EE)
Dryburgh Final
Ringgenberg (9)
W: Swiss Junior Championships
Thun, SUI
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Draw: CF2 -- Sun, Mar 24 -- 9:00am CET
Schwaller Final
Oberson (9)
Blackham Final
von Arx (9)
W: NWTCA Curling Club Championships
Fort Smith, NT
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Draw: 3 -- Sat, Mar 23 -- 11:00am MT
Stroeder Final
Delorey (7)
M: NWTCA Curling Club Championships
Fort Smith, NT
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
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Homan Brings Home Gold

Homan Brings Home Gold

Sydney, Canada - In front of a full house with over 4,000 spectators, Canada (photo: Stephen Fisher, World Curling) beat Switzerland by 7-5 to take gold at the BKT Tires World Women's Curling Championship 2024.

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