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W: USA Curling Junior National Championships
Eau Claire, WI
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Draw: W6 -- Thu, Mar 28 -- 4:00pm CT
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Scheel (10) Watch Live Curling!
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: Canadian Wheelchair Championship
Moose Jaw, SK
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Draw: 8 -- Thu, Mar 28 -- 1:30pm MT
SK (Pederson) Final
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SK (Dash) Final
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M: USA Curling Junior National Championships
Eau Claire, WI
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Draw: M6 -- Thu, Mar 28 -- 12:00pm CT
Church Final
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M: Canadian Mixed Doubles Curling Championship
Fredericton, NB
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Draw: CF -- Fri, Mar 22 -- 1:00pm AT
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Walk/Muyr (8) Watch Live Curling!
M: Swiss Junior Championships
Thun, SUI
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Draw: CF2 -- Sun, Mar 24 -- 3:00am ET
Caccivio Final
Brauchli 12  (EE)
Dryburgh Final
Ringgenberg (9)
W: Swiss Junior Championships
Thun, SUI
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Draw: CF2 -- Sun, Mar 24 -- 9:00am CET
Schwaller Final
Oberson (9)
Blackham Final
von Arx (9)
W: NWTCA Curling Club Championships
Fort Smith, NT
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Draw: 3 -- Sat, Mar 23 -- 11:00am MT
Stroeder Final
Delorey (7)
M: NWTCA Curling Club Championships
Fort Smith, NT
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Draw: 3 -- Sat, Mar 23 -- 1:00pm ET
Delorey Final
Lockhart (EE)
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02-10-16 07:10AM
Netz is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Netz Click here to Send Netz a Private Message Find more posts by Netz Add Netz to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Netz
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Registered: Oct 2002
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quote:
Originally posted by On The Nose
It was very ironic - in a sad way - to see the Team Howard sweepers this past weekend habitually following rocks and sweeping them from DIRECTLY BEHIND as the rocks traveled down the ice. This, from the same hypocritical team who were so vocally critical of 'joysticking' and snow-plowing earlier this season.
Apparently, it's only wrong when other teams - or teams who don't use Balance Plus brooms - do it...



I do not blame Howard one little bit, why should he be at a disadvantage by not using it. Glenn is against this type of sweeping but is forced to go against what he believes.

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02-10-16 08:17AM
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SooCurler
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quote:
Originally posted by Netz


I do not blame Howard one little bit, why should he be at a disadvantage by not using it. Glenn is against this type of sweeping but is forced to go against what he believes.



Glenn has, at least, been consistent in his hypocrisy if I were to put it in extreme terms. Not to say he is a hypocrite, just that hes no victim.

At the Tankard he got his hands on two synthetic horse hairs. Used them in every game even though none of his competition had that option. He could have easily used one synthetic hair and a pad like everyone else, but didn't. Why? He wanted an advantage. He wasn't forced to use two all week. He did it because they could throw normal weight take-outs and back them up 3 inches if they had to. They did it so they could make every tick shot they called.

Lets not pretend Glenn is this holier than thou curler who is being forced to go against his morals. Rich may have been the broom sheriff on tour but they have no qualms about using it to their advantage, not just using it to even the field. Be honest with things and its a lot easier to accept whats happening on the ice and make positive changes.

Last edited by SooCurler on 02-10-16 at 10:03AM

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02-10-16 12:02PM
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Par
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quote:
Originally posted by SooCurler
At the Tankard he got his hands on two synthetic horse hairs ... though none of his competition had that option.


Can you tell us how and why Howard got these brushes but none of the other teams could?

Are they commercially available or not?

If they are commercially available, why couldn't anyone else get them?

And if they're not, why are they legal?

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02-10-16 12:58PM
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SooCurler
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quote:
Originally posted by Par


Can you tell us how and why Howard got these brushes but none of the other teams could?

Are they commercially available or not?

If they are commercially available, why couldn't anyone else get them?

And if they're not, why are they legal?



*shrug* I'm told they are commercially available. Did others HAVE the theoretical option sure. But is there a store near by, are they in stock, will it ship on time. Is it your sponsors broom, do you want to try a completely new broom out for the first time in a Tankard. All valid reasons why others might not have more than one. For all I know other teams did have two on hand, but didn't employ them like team Howard because they didn't know what they could do. My point was not so much what team Howard did with them but what it means for the sport in general.

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02-10-16 01:11PM
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Par
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quote:
Originally posted by SooCurler
For all I know other teams did have two on hand ...


I am not sure whether or not this supports your contention that:

quote:
none of his competition had that option

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02-10-16 02:01PM
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youngen
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Jan 2009
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quote:
Originally posted by SooCurler


*shrug* I'm told they are commercially available. Did others HAVE the theoretical option sure. But is there a store near by, are they in stock, will it ship on time. Is it your sponsors broom, do you want to try a completely new broom out for the first time in a Tankard. All valid reasons why others might not have more than one. For all I know other teams did have two on hand, but didn't employ them like team Howard because they didn't know what they could do. My point was not so much what team Howard did with them but what it means for the sport in general.



Doesn't the Broom Moratorium have a date that applies to when products had to be commercially available? Going by that I would think it was a viable option for everyone to pick up if it had to be available for sale back in November.

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02-11-16 12:10AM
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Bugman
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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Let's face it folks, any competitive team that isn't employing the new sweeping techniques is bringing a butter knife to blade night in the back alley.

Recently, TSN showed archival footage of a Brier Final where both sweepers swept and shots actually could be missed. There was real tension when tough shots had to be tried and great excitement when they were made. Shooting percentages felt like they meant something.

TSN was showing the 2015 Brier Final between Northern Ontario and Team Canada. That's how quickly the ground has shifted in our game.

I seriously doubt that any lover of curling, fan or competitor, is happy about the recent developments in sweeping. The elite competitors are seeing everybody making shots that they worked very hard to become the best in the world at throwing. The game is seriously cheapened for the fan, as virtually all of the essential tension of playing and making extremely tough shots is gone from this year's version of curling. Now, we really are watching chess on ice, with about the same chance of seeing a physical misplay. It is the ultimate for the modern computer gaming world - a pure test of strategy. I for one, prefer to see curling where there is a direct relationship between the quality of the throw and the outcome of the shot.

Once a resolution is found to correct this situation, and it may take a while, many will look back with regret at what they may have said, done or advocated through this season. It probably is inevitable that some mistakes have and will be made, as this has to be the most dramatic and rapid transformation to the nature of the game since ... ever???

But it has become clear that, under the existing rules, a competitive team that does not employ the new techniques has no chance of reaching their goals. Can Brad Gushue's team be criticized for doing the work to establish the validity of the technique? Can any of the other top-flight teams be criticized for immediately adopting it? Can a team be criticized for taking the next step in a rapidly evolving competitive environment (e.g. 2 hair brooms, sweeping at unusual angles and tangents to the rock, etc.)?

My point is that it is entirely consistent for elite curlers to vociferously criticize the technique while simultaneously adopting it to maintain their place in modern competitive curling. The difficult part comes when determining how, and to what degree, the genie can be put back in the bottle.

Jim Corrigan

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02-11-16 10:35AM
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JB42
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Mr. Corrigan,

Very well said, and according to my lights you couldn't be more right. You don't bring a knife to a gun fight. Until/unless the genie is put back in the bottle then what ain't illegal is legal. Furthermore there is not a single WCT team that will not be using these techniques as long as they are not illegal.

This is my recollection of the chronology as to how we got here.

2009 Curl Canada as part of 'Own the Podium' research sweeping. Discover that curlers are not melting the ice. Do not discover the effect of scratches.
http://www.curling.ca/blog/2010/10/...eeping-secrets/

Hardline enters the fray in 2010.

2014 Team McEwen begins using HL brooms.

End of 2014-2015 season Team Gushue, Team Howard and others ask CCA to research the effect of the Ice Pad as compared to other brooms. CCA declines.

2015 Team Gushue: Give up sponsorship with Goldline. In their words this move to Hardline is to equalize the playing field. After extensive testing they discover that one sweeper is more effective than two.

2015 Balance Plus introduce a new broom that is quickly dubbed 'The Blackhead'. (Curling's acne?) The effect on both the rock and the ice is highly visible. Broom used by Team Balsdon, Team Epping, Team Frans, Team Howard.

October 2015 Stu Sells Tankard all-teams meeting over broom issue. General agreement to 'walk this back'. But to where is still unclear.

October 2015 Broom technology statement by Team Simmons signed on to by 22 elite teams.
http://www.teamcanadacurl.ca/blog/r...lite-teams-125/

November 2015 WCF moratorium on 'textured, sealed or modified' broom heads as well as 'hardening' inserts. Also only broom heads available to the public are deemed to be legal.
http://www.worldcurling.org/brush-h...hnology-2015-16

November 2015: Curl Canada adopts WCF rules.

2016......I'm unclear what happened exactly when....but....

WCT players compare brooms informally after an event and discover that the 'joy stick' effect can be done with every broom to a significant if varying extent. Further discover that hair brooms also create the effect.


February 2016: Curl Canada. As was hypothesized by many at the Stu Sells Toronto Tankard.
"It's all about the scratches".
http://www.curling.ca/blog/2016/02/...eeping-in-2016/

Yours truly among them as I connected the effect of the brushes to this physics paper I read and wrote about on CZ last year.
http://phys.org/news/2013-05-mechan...e-revealed.html

February 2016: Ontario Tankard. The advent of the 'two hair brush' hit. Low side guy backs it up, high side guy makes it curl and....not a little.

Norway Team Hoiberg video shows this information is no secret.
https://www.facebook.com/Everything...365238836835039

Mike Harris plays in Ontario Tankard and commentates during the final. Says point blank that this is sweeping as we've never seen it before. Further comments that many shots that were considered very difficult, e.g. 'tick' shot, are now pretty much routine as a result of the 'joy stick' effect.

February 2016: Rumours abound. Hair brooms will be banned. Tick shot will be banned. Corner sweeping will be banned.

And that is pretty much where were at if I didn't miss anything significant.

Last edited by JB42 on 02-11-16 at 10:44AM

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03-23-16 05:36PM
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Itsjustagame
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At the Sotties and Brier, Hardline teams were showing the IcePad logo on their brush heads for everyone to see.

Have you noticed that HL teams at the Womens Worlds are using unicolor pads? There is a lot of advertisement on the players but it seems that HL / IcePad have been denied.

Perhaps knowing who are the WCF main sponsors and that some of their staff hold patents to other brush heads helps understanding what is going on here.

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03-23-16 05:45PM
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draway8
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quote:
Originally posted by Itsjustagame
At the Sotties and Brier, Hardline teams were showing the IcePad logo on their brush heads for everyone to see.

Have you noticed that HL teams at the Womens Worlds are using unicolor pads? There is a lot of advertisement on the players but it seems that HL / IcePad have been denied.

Perhaps knowing who are the WCF main sponsors and that some of their staff hold patents to other brush heads helps understanding what is going on here.



I'm pretty sure Team Carey used a special Alberta HL Ice Pad at the Scotties and now they're sporting one with the TC maple leaf logo. Same HL logos are all over the shaft. Not sure what you're grasping at here.

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03-23-16 06:09PM
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Itsjustagame
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quote:
Originally posted by draway8


I'm pretty sure Team Carey used a special Alberta HL Ice Pad at the Scotties and now they're sporting one with the TC maple leaf logo. Same HL logos are all over the shaft. Not sure what you're grasping at here.



Team Carey had pads with the Alberta logo on top and the IcePad logo on the bottom. Nothing special ere. You can buy HL pads with any province logo and many different countries directly online from HL. You actually can get HL pads with any logo you want.

So why is the IcePad logo not present if not that the WCF is protecting their friends and wallet?

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03-23-16 07:45PM
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Squiggsy
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quote:
Originally posted by Itsjustagame


Team Carey had pads with the Alberta logo on top and the IcePad logo on the bottom. Nothing special ere. You can buy HL pads with any province logo and many different countries directly online from HL. You actually can get HL pads with any logo you want.

So why is the IcePad logo not present if not that the WCF is protecting their friends and wallet?



The only IcePads that say IcePad on the scrubbing surface are some of the yellow ones. Carey used a yellow one in the Scotties, similar to Gushue in the Brier. Some of Reid Carruthers' brooms that have the yellow bottom say IcePad. None of the red, green, blue, black, etc. ones do.

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03-23-16 07:48PM
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curlky
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Registered: Oct 2013
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quote:
Originally posted by Itsjustagame
At the Sotties and Brier, Hardline teams were showing the IcePad logo on their brush heads for everyone to see.

Have you noticed that HL teams at the Womens Worlds are using unicolor pads? There is a lot of advertisement on the players but it seems that HL / IcePad have been denied.

Perhaps knowing who are the WCF main sponsors and that some of their staff hold patents to other brush heads helps understanding what is going on here.



Conspiracy much? Check your facts before you go around implying that the WCF and BP are in cahoots on this to prevent HL from advertising. Go back, watch games from the last few years. A lot of the EQ pads from BP used to have silk screen on the bottom as well. Just because they have not had it much recently, does not mean they have never done it, and the rule has taken away the advertising space from both companies equally now.

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03-23-16 08:53PM
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Itsjustagame
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quote:
Originally posted by curlky


Conspiracy much? Check your facts before you go around implying that the WCF and BP are in cahoots on this to prevent HL from advertising. Go back, watch games from the last few years. A lot of the EQ pads from BP used to have silk screen on the bottom as well. Just because they have not had it much recently, does not mean they have never done it, and the rule has taken away the advertising space from both companies equally now.



Check my facts? Sure, but with who?

Six months later, Curling Canada and the WCF are still doing mysterious tests, in secret places , by unknown people and in unknown fashion.

This is broom testing, not NASA flying to some far away galaxy. How come we are still in the dark? I have my theories on that too, but hey, apparently I am a the conspirator!

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03-24-16 10:26AM
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At the Scotties and the Brier many Hardline teams had a sliding broom and a skip's or acting skip's target broom with the IcePad logo on the bottom. This is something that Balance Plus used to do in the past as well but we have not seen it for a while. For this Women's World Championship the Carey team probably was told not to use the IcePad logo on the bottom of the broom for some reason but it's clear something did happen. Undoubtedly it was to try and mitigate the visibility of the Hardline product while the WCF continues to sort out how screwed up they made the broom situation without a proper process to regulation and equipment standard being followed. But that would be WRONG right to have done in an unbiased and transparent fashion right?

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03-24-16 10:37AM
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curlky
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quote:
Originally posted by swjones
At the Scotties and the Brier many Hardline teams had a sliding broom and a skip's or acting skip's target broom with the IcePad logo on the bottom. This is something that Balance Plus used to do in the past as well but we have not seen it for a while. For this Women's World Championship the Carey team probably was told not to use the IcePad logo on the bottom of the broom for some reason but it's clear something did happen. Undoubtedly it was to try and mitigate the visibility of the Hardline product while the WCF continues to sort out how screwed up they made the broom situation without a proper process to regulation and equipment standard being followed. But that would be WRONG right to have done in an unbiased and transparent fashion right?


So one issue that was brought up about the original IcePad fabric, was that the surface on the ice was sealed or plasticized rather than the more traditional cordura fabric that was somewhat pourous. By the use of a silk screen, or a polymer acting like a polymer on the bottom, you have the ability to add grit to teh surface, or some directional-ness.

I am not trying to say that HL was doing this, but the possibility to do so was there. So if you are going to go to the effort to police fabric material, you cannot then ignore a coating that you are applying to that material. Once coated, it changes the nature of the fabric, and its performance characteristics. I am not trying to take a side, just point out why there is an issue with the bottom silk screen

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03-24-16 11:15AM
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Itsjustagame
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So,the IcePad logo under the broom could be a problem at the Worlds but it was not at the Brier or Scotties.

This has nothing to do with who is friends with who?

Hard to believe!

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03-24-16 12:09PM
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Gerry
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quote:
Originally posted by Itsjustagame
So,the IcePad logo under the broom could be a problem at the Worlds but it was not at the Brier or Scotties.

This has nothing to do with who is friends with who?

Hard to believe!



All screen printing has been removed from brush pads. Not just the icePad logo. BalancePlus also did the same with their pads.

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03-24-16 03:38PM
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WCF came out with 2 new rules a few days before Worlds, that we are not sure have been made public or not, but here they are.

1- No logos on the bottom of the pad, as the logos may damage the ice

2- (Old rule was pads had to be commercially available before Nov. 17th) New Rule: Pads do not have to be commercially available, as long as fabric that is being used is an approved fabric. We have been seeing our competitors pads with our fabrics on them, which is fine. However, not sure why the rules keep changing constantly to suit our competitors.

Also, not sure why everyone is scrambling in using the fabrics we currently use on our broom heads. It is the same fabric from the 1st generation Norway head, before that changed to an even more waterproof fabric, that is currently used today. Gerry even sent us the supplier name, so it is not like the fabric came from us.

So Curlky, not saying a conspiracy, but certainly a double standard exists. When Hardline did not have much of a presence on TV, the logo was not an issue. In fact, other logos have been present for years with no issues. But when our logo was pretty visible at the Brier and the Scotties, suddenly logos are an issue? And our logo is not silkscreened as an FYI, so no danger of it coming off. Just saying that if we had never put the icePad logo on the bottom, we are fairly certain this new rule would never have been implemented. BTW, logo is not on the textured fabric. It is on the woven fabric.

The other double standard that has taken place is at the club level. Although the TCA and OVCA were quick to impose the moratorium on the icePads during certain spiels because of, you know, the spirit of curling, they still have not imposed the moratorium regarding hair, at least, not publicly.

Lastly, concerning the moratorium, the main argument back in the fall, was that the icePads were taking the skill out of throwing, and putting it in the sweepers hands. Apparently, our teams were joysticking shots, and they simply never missed. However, looking back at last years stats from slams and Briers, and this years stats, before the moratorium, when players had a great game, they were shooting high 80s/low 90s. In fact, Hardline players rarely led in shooting % overall. However, since the moratorium, and more teams began using the 1 sweeper theory, and now have it down to an art, teams are consistently shooting mid-high 90s, including those who do not even use the icePad. Back end of Team Jacobs during the Brier shooting % during the round robin was at 99% at times, but consistently over 95%. At the Brier, if you shot 90% or below, chances are you lost that game. If the moratorium was to put the skill back in the throwers hand, it certainly has done the opposite. It has put even less skill in throwing the rock than ever before. We are just going based on what we see. The evidence. And the more players get more familiar with the 1 sweeper, the more shooting % is going to climb. To change or not change sweeping rules is not up to us to decide. However, when are people going to realize that depending on how you sweep, ALL brooms have the same effect and not just the IcePad? And that this is not a broom issue but a sweeping issue? Our name and reputation has been slandered for no good reason and this is what you get when you make up rules as you go along with no scientific and open testing.

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03-24-16 03:53PM
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" And that this is not a broom issue but a sweeping issue? Our name and reputation has been slandered for no good reason and this is what you get when you make up rules as you go along with no scientific and open testing."

I wholeheartedly agree. I have been saying this for a while now only to be told it is too hard to police sweeping so they will just let it be. Hardline has been punished for making a better product and even when it is shown that it is the technique of the sweepers not the brooms the powers that be turn a blind eye to the facts. Hopefully more people learn what a great product they have and turn their support to Hardline by purchasing the Icepad. If its good enough for Team Howard and Brier Champion Team Koe then it should be good for everyone.

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03-24-16 04:07PM
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Three
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Can somebody explain to me what is difference between the two broom heads that a typical front end uses? I see all the time that if a rock is light only one sweeper sweeps and the person holding the broom in the house comes out to help sweep for distance. Meanwhile the other person on the front end wanders about helplessly yelling encouragement? I've seen this all week at the women's worlds and just don't understand it. Only thing I can gather on these forums is the other head makes it curl more which slows it down?

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03-24-16 05:35PM
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster

 

Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990

what the commentators have said is that the team is allowed one broomhead per person, four per team so the will have the skip come out to help sweep for distance to save the newer pad.

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03-25-16 01:47AM
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On The Nose
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Registered: Apr 2014
Location: In the House
Posts: 608

quote:
Originally posted by Hardline
Lastly, concerning the moratorium, the main argument back in the fall, was that the icePads were taking the skill out of throwing, and putting it in the sweepers hands. Apparently, our teams were joysticking shots, and they simply never missed. However, looking back at last years stats from slams and Briers, and this years stats, before the moratorium, when players had a great game, they were shooting high 80s/low 90s. In fact, Hardline players rarely led in shooting % overall. However, since the moratorium, and more teams began using the 1 sweeper theory, and now have it down to an art, teams are consistently shooting mid-high 90s, including those who do not even use the icePad. Back end of Team Jacobs during the Brier shooting % during the round robin was at 99% at times, but consistently over 95%. At the Brier, if you shot 90% or below, chances are you lost that game. If the moratorium was to put the skill back in the throwers hand, it certainly has done the opposite. It has put even less skill in throwing the rock than ever before. We are just going based on what we see. The evidence. And the more players get more familiar with the 1 sweeper, the more shooting % is going to climb. To change or not change sweeping rules is not up to us to decide. However, when are people going to realize that depending on how you sweep, ALL brooms have the same effect and not just the IcePad? And that this is not a broom issue but a sweeping issue? Our name and reputation has been slandered for no good reason and this is what you get when you make up rules as you go along with no scientific and open testing.

It's no secret that ALL teams were 'joysticking' shots all season - including Glenn Howard's team, who are the ones who lit the biggest fire under this whole brush pad issue by accusing the Hardline IcePad of being able to control rocks like with a joystick, which they felt was very, very wrong, against the spirit of curling, etc. It wasn't long after that that the Howard team was joysticking right along with all the other teams (not just the Hardline teams).
Howard's team even stuck IcePads on their Balance Plus shafts for the Brier!

But, as 'Hardline' points out in the post above, the Jacobs Northern Ontario team played great in the Brier (running through the Round Robin as the only undefeated team)... and they did it without using any IcePads. This certainly seems to prove that it is the 'directional brushing' technique (corner sweeping, snowplowing, etc.) which is causing the 'joystick' effect, and not any particular material or brush head.
We saw shots made in this year's Brier that were impossible to make only last year. It was ridiculous. And, frankly, not much fun for those of us who enjoy good shotmaking. Yet Curling Canada and the WCF continue to refuse to acknowledge the obvious - that the problem is with the brushing technique far more than it is with the brush heads.

__________________
"It is easy in the world to live after the world's opinion; it is easy in solitude to live after our own... but the great man is he who, in the midst of the crowd, keeps with perfect sweetness the independence of solitude." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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03-25-16 09:04AM
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dks
Hitting Paint

 

Registered: Oct 2012
Location:
Posts: 119

Does anyone know if the Scottish team was using a Hardline pad on one of their brushes? It looked like they had one Norway pad and one Hardliner pad (or the new Goldline pad?).

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03-25-16 09:31AM
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curlky
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Registered: Oct 2013
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Posts: 559

quote:
Originally posted by Hardline

So Curlky, not saying a conspiracy, but certainly a double standard exists. When Hardline did not have much of a presence on TV, the logo was not an issue. In fact, other logos have been present for years with no issues. But when our logo was pretty visible at the Brier and the Scotties, suddenly logos are an issue? And our logo is not silkscreened as an FYI, so no danger of it coming off.



Look, if you want to think the world is fighting against you personally, you can rationalize that as much as you want. Let me present a more factual based observational path.

A few years ago, in almost every spiel being broadcast, I would see BP advertise on the bottom of their pads. Over the last year or 2, I have seen less and less of that. I never understood why a company would just stop advertising that was very visible. When I watched the Scotties and Brier, and I saw your advertising on teh bottom of the pad, I had 2 thoughts. First, I guess Archie recalled that BP used to do, and decided it was good advertising. Second, as an engineer, and someone who has been performing some of my own testing on fabric surfaces, I was shocked that no one had made a rule about logos on the bottom of the broom. After all, all of the hullabaloo about types of fabric, or length of hair, directional material, I could not believe that no one had outlawed pad advertising.

And HL, my point was not saying you were using silkscreen that was falling off. My exact statement was "By the use of a silk screen, or a polymer acting like a polymer on the bottom, you have the ability to add grit to teh surface, or some directional-ness.". When I said grit to the surface, I was not referring to leaving debris on the ice. I was referring to the fact that you would take an approved fabric, add a certain type of polymer logo, and have that material now have a very excessively abrasive grit, think like the BP blackhead controversy earlier in the year. It would be an easy way for someone who wanted to be mischievous to circumvent teh rule. I am in no way saying that HL did this. I am just saying that the use of ads on teh bottom could allow a rogue single person or team to do this, and no one would be the wiser.

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