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| 03-12-15 05:40PM |
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curler2014
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Dec 2014
Location:
Posts: 56 |
quote:
Originally posted by decade
In your opinion, who are the stakeholders? Sponsors? or Warren?
I love how people think Warren runs the show and calls the shots. If you knew how Curling Canada was structured, you'd know they are a member based organization and all decisions are motioned by and passed or defeated by votes by the 14 member associations. Warren has input, but by no means does he have the authority to change structure, bylaws, operation, etc.
I will say, once the show is going, Warren controls it...no questions asked, he likes things done a certain way. But we're talking how people hold banners, which order they march, who speaks during opening/closing ceremonies, etc. Not if and when pre-qualification happens, or Team Canada existing, etc.
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| 03-12-15 06:03PM |
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Borough Boy
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Oct 2007
Location:
Posts: 48 |
quote:
Originally posted by curler2014
I love how people think Warren runs the show and calls the shots. If you knew how Curling Canada was structured, you'd know they are a member based organization and all decisions are motioned by and passed or defeated by votes by the 14 member associations. Warren has input, but by no means does he have the authority to change structure, bylaws, operation, etc.
I will say, once the show is going, Warren controls it...no questions asked, he likes things done a certain way. But we're talking how people hold banners, which order they march, who speaks during opening/closing ceremonies, etc. Not if and when pre-qualification happens, or Team Canada existing, etc.
Sigh............yes, this was my point about 3 pages ago, everyone who is upset about relegation are going after the wrong people.
Talk to the Provincial associations, and if they won't talk to you, well, then there is a problem with the association. Make change, vote them out, run yourself, convince other association members to follow, now that could affect change.
Protesting with signs and (laugh) sending letters to the Prime Minister is noble, but pointed at the wrong direction. Boycotting major sponsors is not the solution also. If you want to make a point, so be it, if you want to make change, you need a much bigger base and a much better and more strategic approach. Explain how 5 sheets can not just be accomodated, but how you are going to be able to have fans who sit low, see the games? How are tv and photographers able to do their jobs, when they are unable to move around. Explain to TSN why having more teams is better for ratings, interest etc. How is this going to help generate more revenue. Are more fans REALLY going to go to the the Brier if Yukon is there or Nova Scotia or BC in the ladies and if so, how many more? If the answer is 10-50, then you have your answers before you start. My experience has been, diehards are going regardless and it has been planned for some time, friends and families of competing teams will go if they can, so I'm not sure how not being guaranteed a spot really has a significant impact on numbers. But if you can get people from Nova Scotia, as an example, to commit to going to the next Brier if relegation is changed, by ponying up a downpayment on tickets for example, then you have an economic reason.
I'm not sure you can, but THAT is the approach that is required, not having 100 people in the stands with banners stating "say no to relegation ,BOOO." . Just stating it is well, a bad idea.
However, with that being said I still have no issue with relegation at these 2 events, for the reasons Gerry pointed out earlier and have been stated before.
Last edited by Borough Boy on 03-12-15 at 06:10PM
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| 03-13-15 12:46PM |
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Gerry
CZ Founder
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 4002 |
I'm just going to ask this as part of the debate, but is the Relegation system showing results already in what it's intended to do?
PEI's Adam Casey saw relegation as a bad thing for his province, but instead of giving up he built a team to travel and compete like the elite teams in the game do.
Was part of his success in using the hatred for relegation as a way to generate interest in what doing? Could it have been due to relegation?
There's a huge opportunity here for Nova Scotia teams to ride the wave of disgust over the system and use it to fundraise to be the team to get Nova Scotia back into the Brier. Put together a plan, go out and get some sponsorship.
A funding campaign would likely also have a chance to be very successful to raise some money and build a competitive schedule similar to what Casey did.
The Brier is not where you get "experience" to get better. It's the National Championship. If you're not out playing games all year and getting challenged, you're falling behind. 11 games on that ice is not enough to keep up with teams playing 60-100 games a season under highly competitive conditions.
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| 03-13-15 12:47PM |
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Gerry
CZ Founder
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 4002 |
quote:
Originally posted by decade
In your opinion, who are the stakeholders? Sponsors? or Warren?
Sport Canada, Television, Sponsors, Member Associations
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| 03-13-15 01:20PM |
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Not Happy
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Mar 2015
Location:
Posts: 21 |
Everyone is missing the point its not about Nova Scotia its about any team that gets relegated Nova Scotia will get out of this so next year it will be 2 or 3 others in the same boat. On the ladies side I could not imagine BC not being in the Scotties next year but that could happen one bad game is all it will take. This is a National Championship this is what we are fighting for.
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| 03-13-15 01:49PM |
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ngm
Swing Artist
Registered: Feb 2011
Location:
Posts: 272 |
quote:
Originally posted by Not Happy
Everyone is missing the point its not about Nova Scotia its about any team that gets relegated Nova Scotia will get out of this so next year it will be 2 or 3 others in the same boat. On the ladies side I could not imagine BC not being in the Scotties next year but that could happen one bad game is all it will take. This is a National Championship this is what we are fighting for.
It seems to me that you are fighting for one format for a national championship which you prefer over another format for a national championship which you dislike.
The current format still gives a path for a team from any province and territory to win, every year. The current format is still a national championship.
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| 03-13-15 02:24PM |
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guido
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 1418 |
The brier/ scotties should be represented regionally.
1. Team Canada
2. Host province
3. 5 from the west including NWT/ T
4. 5 from the east including Nunavut
You could still have provincials and send 2-3 teams to the pre- brier/ Scotties to fight out who represents the region.
You still have a chance to represent your province, and the brier/ Scotties would be more competitive.
No relegation. If you're good enough you go, if you're not, you don't.
Last edited by guido on 03-13-15 at 02:26PM
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| 03-13-15 03:47PM |
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Not Happy
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Mar 2015
Location:
Posts: 21 |
Sorry makes no sense what are you smoking it must be good stuff trying to make the Brier something its not.
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| 03-13-15 04:00PM |
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guido
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 1418 |
quote:
Originally posted by Not Happy
Sorry makes no sense what are you smoking it must be good stuff trying to make the Brier something its not.
As I figured. If it's not you're opinion , it's wrong.
You do know that the brier was NOT originally bound by any provincial lines????
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| 03-13-15 08:14PM |
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mcgregorm89
Swing Artist
Registered: Apr 2014
Location: Kingston, ON
Posts: 210 |
quote:
Originally posted by guido
The brier/ scotties should be represented regionally.
1. Team Canada
2. Host province
3. 5 from the west including NWT/ T
4. 5 from the east including Nunavut
You could still have provincials and send 2-3 teams to the pre- brier/ Scotties to fight out who represents the region.
You still have a chance to represent your province, and the brier/ Scotties would be more competitive.
No relegation. If you're good enough you go, if you're not, you don't.
Regional representation is how the Allan Cup works which is the national championship for senior mens hockey in Canada. Does this mean it's not a national championship? There is no other Canadian national championship that gives each of the provinces and territories equal representation. They have other options to avoid relegation but have looked at them and passed on them, it's not like relegation was the first and only proposal it's the one the MA's agreed on.
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| 03-14-15 08:30AM |
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curler2014
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Dec 2014
Location:
Posts: 56 |
quote:
Originally posted by Not Happy
Sorry makes no sense what are you smoking it must be good stuff trying to make the Brier something its not.
LOL - obviously it makes no sense because it's not what you "Not Happy" want. Or perhaps it really is just a case of lack of education on this subject matter.
I love how the World's that are being played now don't involve all world nations...how can it be considered the World Championship without all countries there?! Blasphemy. Do you see how crazy it seems to have all countries at the World's. Exactly.
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| 03-14-15 09:11AM |
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Guest
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: .
Posts: 1844 |
I am joining the boycott of World Curling Championship sponsors. In the short term I refuse to fly on Aeroflot Airlines, wear Edox Swiss watches, and I will not purchase any products from Luzerno and Zen-Noch.
__________________
Guest 
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| 03-14-15 11:56AM |
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Island Roger
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Mar 2014
Location:
Posts: 51 |
quote:
Originally posted by curler2014
I love how people think Warren runs the show and calls the shots. If you knew how Curling Canada was structured, you'd know they are a member based organization and all decisions are motioned by and passed or defeated by votes by the 14 member associations. Warren has input, but by no means does he have the authority to change structure, bylaws, operation, etc.
I will say, once the show is going, Warren controls it...no questions asked, he likes things done a certain way. But we're talking how people hold banners, which order they march, who speaks during opening/closing ceremonies, etc. Not if and when pre-qualification happens, or Team Canada existing, etc.
I've been in those meetings. Trust me. The Big "W" runs the whole thing.
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| 03-14-15 01:53PM |
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guido
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 1418 |
quote:
Originally posted by Guest
I am joining the boycott of World Curling Championship sponsors. In the short term I refuse to fly on Aeroflot Airlines, wear Edox Swiss watches, and I will not purchase any products from Luzerno and Zen-Noch.
Oh man. I am weakening. I will follow your lead!!!
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| 03-14-15 02:20PM |
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curler2014
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Dec 2014
Location:
Posts: 56 |
I just heard through the grapevine that NS curlers met with one of Curling Canada's board of governors and some representatives from the Nova Scotia Curling Association. Talk wasn't so much about relegation, while not happy with it, they seemed to understand why it is in place to some extent, but more people were angry with the NSCA's lack of leadership and planning and how NS has fallen to this state nationally.
Interesting. And seemingly in line with what we (the people who understand this topic) have been saying. The problem is with the provincial and territorial associations to do what it takes to get more people curling, to get more curlers competitive, to get the competitive curlers better. NS needs high performance camps. NS needs arena ice conditions to practice on. NS needs its provincial championships on arena ice.
Seems likes this whole crazy idea may actually go from ugly, to a positive change for curling. I for one, have said this the whole time.
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| 03-14-15 02:56PM |
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alex
Swing Artist
Registered: Sep 2011
Location: Quesnel
Posts: 420 |
quote:
Originally posted by Island Roger
I've been in those meetings. Trust me. The Big "W" runs the whole thing.
Absolutely correct. Been there as well.
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| 03-14-15 03:30PM |
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Par
Swing Artist
Registered: Feb 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 407 |
quote:
Originally posted by Guest
... In the short term I refuse to fly on Aeroflot Airlines ...
I have never flown on Aeroflot and I'm doing fine. So I think you've made a good decision.
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| 03-14-15 04:35PM |
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mcgregorm89
Swing Artist
Registered: Apr 2014
Location: Kingston, ON
Posts: 210 |
quote:
Originally posted by Par
I have never flown on Aeroflot and I'm doing fine. So I think you've made a good decision.
Probably a good choice seeing how it has a separate wiki page for crashes and accidents. That and it's Russian.
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| 03-15-15 02:43PM |
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jamcan
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
Posts: 2340 |
quote:
Originally posted by curler2014
I just heard through the grapevine that NS curlers met with one of Curling Canada's board of governors and some representatives from the Nova Scotia Curling Association. Talk wasn't so much about relegation, while not happy with it, they seemed to understand why it is in place to some extent, but more people were angry with the NSCA's lack of leadership and planning and how NS has fallen to this state nationally.
Interesting. And seemingly in line with what we (the people who understand this topic) have been saying. The problem is with the provincial and territorial associations to do what it takes to get more people curling, to get more curlers competitive, to get the competitive curlers better. NS needs high performance camps. NS needs arena ice conditions to practice on. NS needs its provincial championships on arena ice.
Seems likes this whole crazy idea may actually go from ugly, to a positive change for curling. I for one, have said this the whole time.
I highly doubt your statement that you're 'one the people who understand what's happening' thats pretty arrogant and condescending.
The truth is you are likely someone with a vested interest in relegation or a CCA employee. BTW, the whole 'rebranding' to Curling Canada? Laughable and another huge waste of money. How much did you pay for that? It's about as stupid as renaming the NHL Hockeying National!
Back to the topic, why, I want to know, do all you pro relegated have no response to the simple idea-already proven-of 5 sheets? Of 13 teams?
Simple, because you would have to admit you were wrong and clean up your mess.
__________________
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
Hunter S. Thompson
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| 03-15-15 02:58PM |
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mcgregorm89
Swing Artist
Registered: Apr 2014
Location: Kingston, ON
Posts: 210 |
quote:
Originally posted by jamcan
I highly doubt your statement that you're 'one the people who understand what's happening' thats pretty arrogant and condescending.
The truth is you are likely someone with a vested interest in relegation or a CCA employee. BTW, the whole 'rebranding' to Curling Canada? Laughable and another huge waste of money. How much did you pay for that? It's about as stupid as renaming the NHL Hockeying National!
Back to the topic, why, I want to know, do all you pro relegated have no response to the simple idea-already proven-of 5 sheets? Of 13 teams?
Simple, because you would have to admit you were wrong and clean up your mess.
The re brand was done by the government to be bilingual, just like Hockey Canada, Rugby Canada, Soccer Canada and ect.
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| 03-15-15 03:17PM |
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Borough Boy
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Oct 2007
Location:
Posts: 48 |
quote:
Originally posted by jamcan
I highly doubt your statement that you're 'one the people who understand what's happening' thats pretty arrogant and condescending.
The truth is you are likely someone with a vested interest in relegation or a CCA employee. BTW, the whole 'rebranding' to Curling Canada? Laughable and another huge waste of money. How much did you pay for that? It's about as stupid as renaming the NHL Hockeying National!
Back to the topic, why, I want to know, do all you pro relegated have no response to the simple idea-already proven-of 5 sheets? Of 13 teams?
Simple, because you would have to admit you were wrong and clean up your mess.
Love people coming to the party late, go back about 30 posts, Gerry explained its not feesable due to lack of viewing for paying spectators with seats that are low, makes tv almost impossible. Or at the very least , would not be up to par with what we have become used to.
Those are just off the top of the head. And to be clear I have no vested interest in cc, in fact been on the other side of many debates AGAINST them,
Last edited by Borough Boy on 03-15-15 at 03:19PM
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| 03-18-15 05:55AM |
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Ventry
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Feb 2015
Location:
Posts: 67 |
quote:
Originally posted by Borough Boy
Love people coming to the party late, go back about 30 posts, Gerry explained its not feesable due to lack of viewing for paying spectators with seats that are low, makes tv almost impossible. Or at the very least , would not be up to par with what we have become used to.
Those are just off the top of the head. And to be clear I have no vested interest in cc, in fact been on the other side of many debates AGAINST them,
Seriously, how many seats are we talking about here? Its not like the round robin is sold out and the affected seats would be left unsold. By the time the playoffs roll around, its not an issue.
Don't the Slams have five sheets and broadcast their games? Again, when the playoffs roll around, adjustments can be made to make enhance TV viewing.
These seem like minor concerns compared to exclusion of your members in its premier event and fundamentally changing a national institution.
I have not heard any kind of compelling argument regarding the competitive level of the event or that Canada is losing ground due to less than elite teams at the Brier.
How about 13 teams or a two pool system? Both would not require a major logistical shakeup, or a longer event, or 5 sheets and would not keep the players from mingling with the fans.
Last edited by Ventry on 03-18-15 at 06:04AM
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| 03-18-15 06:13AM |
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Ventry
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Feb 2015
Location:
Posts: 67 |
quote:
Originally posted by fresca
i think the reason i am against relegation is because i dont like the way the pendilum is swinging towards a totalemphasis on winning and money for a few...
dont care much about the worlds or olympics any more for that reason... but i do enjoy new faces and underdogs winnining ...
in the Masters i usually cheer for the low Amateur...
700,000 curlers. vs 36.
this has been my opinion for about 60 years.. not that much has changed. ... enjoyed watching the brier then ... still do
I agree. I would like to "Own the Podium" as much as anyone else but not at the expense of promoting participation and inclusion. I would much rather see government funding go to making sports accessible than to a few individuals. I would rather be known as the healthiest and most active country in the world rather than having won the most medals.
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| 03-18-15 06:35AM |
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mcgregorm89
Swing Artist
Registered: Apr 2014
Location: Kingston, ON
Posts: 210 |
quote:
Originally posted by Ventry
Seriously, how many seats are we talking about here? Its not like the round robin is sold out and the affected seats would be left unsold. By the time the playoffs roll around, its not an issue.
Don't the Slams have five sheets and broadcast their games? Again, when the playoffs roll around, adjustments can be made to make enhance TV viewing.
These seem like minor concerns compared to exclusion of your members in its premier event and fundamentally changing a national institution.
I have not heard any kind of compelling argument regarding the competitive level of the event or that Canada is losing ground due to less than elite teams at the Brier.
How about 13 teams or a two pool system? Both would not require a major logistical shakeup, or a longer event, or 5 sheets and would not keep the players from mingling with the fans.
An extremely contradicting argument, you don't want to exclude teams through relegation yet only having 13 teams when there are 15 teams now competing is fine. Your idea is still excluding teams. As for the 5 sheet issue Gerry did explain it very well, go back and read his post.
As for having a healthy competition instead of owning the podium I'm pretty sure Canada is the deepest curling nation in terms of winning and the number of competitive teams.
Last edited by mcgregorm89 on 03-18-15 at 06:41AM
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| 03-18-15 08:23AM |
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Ventry
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Feb 2015
Location:
Posts: 67 |
quote:
Originally posted by mcgregorm89
An extremely contradicting argument, you don't want to exclude teams through relegation yet only having 13 teams when there are 15 teams now competing is fine. Your idea is still excluding teams. As for the 5 sheet issue Gerry did explain it very well, go back and read his post.
As for having a healthy competition instead of owning the podium I'm pretty sure Canada is the deepest curling nation in terms of winning and the number of competitive teams.
If Nunavet wants to compete in the Brier, which I'm not sure they do at this point, then go with a two pool system if a round robin is not feasible. IMO, having a Team Canada is OK as long as it doesn't mean other teams are excluded from the Brier.
I think four sheets can work or can be made to work if games were 8 ends and four draws a day were held (for a two pool system where teams would play only twice a day.
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