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| 03-28-15 11:21AM |
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ott-am
Swing Artist
Registered: Jan 2005
Location:
Posts: 371 |
2015 Cdn senior mens
I see Butler finished 4th. When did they play the tiebreaker with McCrady? I know you cannot be knocked out on head to head.
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| 03-28-15 11:32AM |
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biterbar
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Registered: Mar 2009
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Posts: 695 |
Can someone explain to this American how the whole round robin to Championship pool and seeding pool thing works?
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| 03-28-15 11:56AM |
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ott-am
Swing Artist
Registered: Jan 2005
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I believe they start with two pools with seven teams in each pool. Then the top four in each pool go to the championship round and they play the other four teams they have not yet played. The games against the other three who they had already played count and the games they had played against the three who did not make the playoffs do not count in the win-loss records for the championship round.
Then the top four make the playoffs. But I still did not see when the Butler/McCrady tiebreaker was played.
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| 03-28-15 12:22PM |
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ott-am
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Registered: Jan 2005
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I just heard they did not have a TB and went head to head. A bit surprising.
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| 03-28-15 12:47PM |
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Tap Back
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1096 |
quote:
Originally posted by ott-am
I believe they start with two pools with seven teams in each pool. Then the top four in each pool go to the championship round and they play the other four teams they have not yet played. The games against the other three who they had already played count and the games they had played against the three who did not make the playoffs do not count in the win-loss records for the championship round.
Then the top four make the playoffs. But I still did not see when the Butler/McCrady tiebreaker was played.
Thanks for explaining as I had not looked at the draw layout.
Interesting format that works for 14 teams. Why could the Brier not have this and get rid of the relegations? Seems like it should result in the top teams coming out and advancing to the final. Sure would be better for the relegated provinces and territories. Makes 100% sense to me unless I am missing something.
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| 03-28-15 01:09PM |
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ott-am
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Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:
Originally posted by Tap Back
Thanks for explaining as I had not looked at the draw layout.
Interesting format that works for 14 teams. Why could the Brier not have this and get rid of the relegations? Seems like it should result in the top teams coming out and advancing to the final. Sure would be better for the relegated provinces and territories. Makes 100% sense to me unless I am missing something.
I don't mind this for the seniors or juniors, but would not like to see it for the Brier or Scotties. Also, I would not want to see a team get eliminated from the playoffs by head to head without a tiebreaker.
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| 03-28-15 01:21PM |
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jamcan
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The problem with two pools of seven is if you go 2-4 in your group you don't advance to the championship. Yet, in the Brier and STOH, teams with 4 losses (7-4 after RD play) almost always reach the page playoff or a tiebreaker and 6-5 records are often still in the fight as well.
So if in your first 6 games you lose 4 close games against equal caliber teams you don't get the opportunity to run the table, win 5, finish 7-4 and make playoffs.
The other problem is seeding the two groups. You will always see an argument because you cannot guarantee fairness in the groups since it's different teams winning their province.
The single group RR is still the simplest, fairest and proven method to determine the best team at the competition.
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| 03-28-15 01:28PM |
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Tap Back
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1096 |
quote:
Originally posted by ott-am
I don't mind this for the seniors or juniors, but would not like to see it for the Brier or Scotties. Also, I would not want to see a team get eliminated from the playoffs by head to head without a tiebreaker.
It is better than relegation IMHO. Can't really see any down side unless not playing 3 certain teams is a downside. The cream will rise as it usually does. A tiebreaker could be fit in the schedule but still think it is better than having 4 provinces/territory send a team to relegation 3 game RR and only one continue and the rest catch a plane home. That would suck big time for 3 of the teams. Just ask the folks in NS right now which they think is better. BC could be facing the same fate next year and they are contenders more often than pretenders.
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| 03-28-15 02:25PM |
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jamcan
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The cream also rises in a single group RR.
We are so worried about who finishes last. Who cares? All relegation does is penalize future teams for actions of the past. If your father robs a bank are you responsible to pay it back? Of course not. Sins of the parents are not the sins of their children. Which is why it is ridiculous to have relegation in the first place.
Increasing the field size to 13 (one team repping the north) and five sheets of ice eliminates relegation while maintaining a fair and equal single group RR where the best teams will rise to the top each year.
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| 03-28-15 02:53PM |
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doubletakeout
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Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Manitoba
Posts: 480 |
jamcan, your solution does not eliminate relegation. Only having one team from the north IS relegation by another name. As separate member associations, Yukon, NWT and Nunavut have just as much right to compete at the tournaments as any other member association (10 provinces + northern Ontario).
Back to the Seniors - a bit of an upset as QC takes out AB in the men's semi-final! Tough loss for AB after leading the whole field the entire week.
For the women, I'll be cheering hard for Colleen Jones. After her meningitis scare a few years ago, we're lucky to still have her with us. Another Canadian title would be hard-earned and a really nice story. She'll play for gold against Alberta.
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| 03-28-15 02:57PM |
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Tap Back
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I agree Jamcan. Some are definitely paying for the sins of their "forefathers". Relegation is not the best option.
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| 03-28-15 07:04PM |
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jamcan
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The cream also rises in a single group RR.
We are so worried about who finishes last. Who cares? All relegation does is penalize future teams for actions of the past. If your father robs a bank are you responsible to pay it back? Of course not. Sins of the parents are not the sins of their children. Which is why it is ridiculous to have relegation in the first place.
Increasing the field size to 13 (one team repping the north) and five sheets of ice eliminates relegation while maintaining a fair and equal single group RR where the best teams will rise to the top each year.
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| 03-28-15 07:18PM |
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Unregistered
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quote:
Originally posted by doubletakeout
jamcan, your solution does not eliminate relegation. Only having one team from the north IS relegation by another name. As separate member associations, Yukon, NWT and Nunavut have just as much right to compete at the tournaments as any other member association (10 provinces + northern Ontario).
Back to the Seniors - a bit of an upset as QC takes out AB in the men's semi-final! Tough loss for AB after leading the whole field the entire week.
For the women, I'll be cheering hard for Colleen Jones. After her meningitis scare a few years ago, we're lucky to still have her with us. Another Canadian title would be hard-earned and a really nice story. She'll play for gold against Alberta.
They have been competing all along against each other to select a single rep from the three territories. This has not only been the tradition, but given the number of clubs and curlers the only sensible option as well.
We're not dealing with huge numbers here all 3 areas combined have fewer clubs and members than Vancouver Island. Based on your logic, they could form their own member association and thus have their own berths at national events also.
Relegation is the reason this format was used in seniors and juniors. Teams like NO Hackner got shutout of the competition because of a 2-4 start. It bears reminding all that he won a Brier with a 7-4 RR record.
Relegation, and those trying to justify it, is causing dissension and problems when there remains a simple, effective and proven solution that includes everyone.
Stop trying to fix something that was never broken in the first place.
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| 03-28-15 11:45PM |
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Gerry
CZ Founder
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 4002 |
quote:
Originally posted by jamcan
The problem with two pools of seven is if you go 2-4 in your group you don't advance to the championship. Yet, in the Brier and STOH, teams with 4 losses (7-4 after RD play) almost always reach the page playoff or a tiebreaker and 6-5 records are often still in the fight as well.
So if in your first 6 games you lose 4 close games against equal caliber teams you don't get the opportunity to run the table, win 5, finish 7-4 and make playoffs.
The other problem is seeding the two groups. You will always see an argument because you cannot guarantee fairness in the groups since it's different teams winning their province.
The single group RR is still the simplest, fairest and proven method to determine the best team at the competition.
This is why Relegation was chosen over pools. There are a lot of changes to the event that they decision makers weren't ready to take that risk of making such a drastic change to the event.
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| 03-28-15 11:47PM |
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Gerry
CZ Founder
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 4002 |
quote:
Originally posted by jamcan
The cream also rises in a single group RR.
We are so worried about who finishes last. Who cares? All relegation does is penalize future teams for actions of the past. If your father robs a bank are you responsible to pay it back? Of course not. Sins of the parents are not the sins of their children. Which is why it is ridiculous to have relegation in the first place.
Increasing the field size to 13 (one team repping the north) and five sheets of ice eliminates relegation while maintaining a fair and equal single group RR where the best teams will rise to the top each year.
There are 14 member associations plus Team Canada for the Scotties and Brier. That's not going away. 15 team event is the starting point now.
As for the changes, it's already starting to show progress as Nunavut got their first win, taking a game over Northern Ontario.
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