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curlerbroad
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2025

Re: Deliverer

quote:
Originally posted by Deliverer
M.L. While most Manitoba fans might not remember when the Scotties were last played in The Peg, many still remember vividly when 'the great jones', as you call her, was competing as the overwhelming favorite in the Gimli Scottie Provincials.
Playing against a bunch of school kids who were incapable of winning a game, let alone a couple of ends, she accused one of them of burning a rock. When the kid said she had not, Jones refused to accept her word and actually refused to play on - tapping her toe, and when the embarrassed kid still refused to cave in, Jones demanded that the Director make a decision!!
To make along sad story short, Jones became, hopefully, the only skip in Scotties history to be booed by the fans as she walked off the ice after the game.

A disgraceful, classless act, which at best, no fan in Gimli
will ever forget or forgive.



Wasn't that young skip - Kerri Flett - now Einarson? That made all of the sports shows btw, I remember watching that on TV.

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Old Post 12-28-16 01:59PM
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albetts
Drawmaster

Registered: Jan 2006
Location: Peterborough
Posts: 825

Re: Re: Re: Re: Deliverer

quote:
Originally posted by On The Nose

Actually, according to the Wiecek article linked to, Kerri was 21 in 2009, making her 20 in 2008
("But it remains to this day a going concern for the 21-year-old Flett, who was a freshly graduated junior playing that night in front of the biggest crowd of her curling career and on home ice in Gimli.")

And if Jones is 42 now, that made her 33 in early 2008.
So, Jones at 33, and well established in the curling world, vs. Flett/Einarson at 20 and playing in front of the largest crowd she's ever played in front of.



That's not being "hyper-competitive" - it's being selfish, disrespectful, immature, and a poor sport.




WE really need a like button on this site.

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Old Post 12-28-16 07:44PM
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Deliverer
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Nov 2016
Location:
Posts: 85

M.L. has stated that he put a certain amount of the blame on the 'designated game official'.

Obviously he is not aware that the 'game official' originally made a decision in favour of the Flett team, a decision that absolutely infuriated Jones to such an extent that she doubled down and Demanded that the Director ( a famous Canadian curler) come to the ice and rule on the official's decision!

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Old Post 12-29-16 10:31AM
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Justintwiss
Hitting Paint

Registered: Oct 2013
Location: St.Claude
Posts: 128

quote:
Originally posted by Deliverer
M.L. has stated that he put a certain amount of the blame on the 'designated game official'.

Obviously he is not aware that the 'game official' originally made a decision in favour of the Flett team, a decision that absolutely infuriated Jones to such an extent that she doubled down and Demanded that the Director ( a famous Canadian curler) come to the ice and rule on the official's decision!




Is anyone really surprised that Jones did this?

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Old Post 12-29-16 12:25PM
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curlerbroad
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2025

quote:
Originally posted by Deliverer
M.L. has stated that he put a certain amount of the blame on the 'designated game official'.

Obviously he is not aware that the 'game official' originally made a decision in favour of the Flett team, a decision that absolutely infuriated Jones to such an extent that she doubled down and Demanded that the Director ( a famous Canadian curler) come to the ice and rule on the official's decision!



Too bad that the Director didn't tell her that he/she stood by the official's decision and to play the game!

Still puzzled by the extensive kowtowing to Jones in curling world...does she have dirty photos?

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Old Post 12-29-16 02:59PM
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Manitoba Legend
Supreme Champion!

Registered: Jan 2009
Location: Hovel of Fame
Posts: 10869

I wonder what other 'incidents' have occurred to 'KowTow' to Jones, as curlerbroad so eloquently states?

The only one I know for sure is JJ requesting NOT to be placed in same sections or quadrants as Cathy O or any team Cathy O is playing with. Not a bad suggestion - but prolly cuts into crowds looking for Cathy O to avenge matters.

Other than the slam-dunking of a designated game official the only other matter where Jones takes in substantial criticism is where she replaced COC w/ Kaitlyn Lawes.

Jones deserves a certain level of criticism for the Gimli burn incident - but in the case of Lawes replacing O, that was a simple case of Jennifer realizing Cathy could not stand up to the shot-pelting of one Emma Miskew - Rachel Homan's long-term 3rd. One Canadian championship gold, Olympic gold and a couple silver or bronze at STOH I think JJ made the correct decision. Anyone who thinks Cathy O could have stood up to Miskew doesn't understand the game. Heck, Kaitlyn was brought in and even she barely stands up to Emma.

So JJ lost her mind once when someone burned a stone. Deserves criticism to be sure - but are there any other examples - other than seemingly never being satisfied with completed shots by Lawes or herself.

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Old Post 12-29-16 04:25PM
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fresca
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Oct 2008
Location:
Posts: 2344

lol - get a room

i am sort of ambivalent on womens curling - but JJ did about half of what i would have done if someone clearly burnt a rock and denied doing so ..

not filmed and happened 60 years ago. ...

slow news week ...

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Old Post 12-29-16 06:55PM
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CURLER1
Drawmaster

Registered: Oct 2004
Location: Brandon
Posts: 562

replacing Cathy

quote:
Originally posted by Manitoba Legend
I wonder what other 'incidents' have occurred to 'KowTow' to Jones, as curlerbroad so eloquently states?

The only one I know for sure is JJ requesting NOT to be placed in same sections or quadrants as Cathy O or any team Cathy O is playing with. Not a bad suggestion - but prolly cuts into crowds looking for Cathy O to avenge matters.

Other than the slam-dunking of a designated game official the only other matter where Jones takes in substantial criticism is where she replaced COC w/ Kaitlyn Lawes.

Jones deserves a certain level of criticism for the Gimli burn incident - but in the case of Lawes replacing O, that was a simple case of Jennifer realizing Cathy could not stand up to the shot-pelting of one Emma Miskew - Rachel Homan's long-term 3rd. One Canadian championship gold, Olympic gold and a couple silver or bronze at STOH I think JJ made the correct decision. Anyone who thinks Cathy O could have stood up to Miskew doesn't understand the game. Heck, Kaitlyn was brought in and even she barely stands up to Emma.

So JJ lost her mind once when someone burned a stone. Deserves criticism to be sure - but are there any other examples - other than seemingly never being satisfied with completed shots by Lawes or herself.




That is not the reason the Jones replaced Cathy O at all. Did you you ever think that Jones took the flack for replacing Cathy, but perhaps Jill and Dawn had a very, very huge roll in that decision, in which Jones has kept quiet about?

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Old Post 12-29-16 06:57PM
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Manitoba Legend
Supreme Champion!

Registered: Jan 2009
Location: Hovel of Fame
Posts: 10869

Re: replacing Cathy

quote:
Originally posted by CURLER1



That is not the reason the Jones replaced Cathy O at all. Did you you ever think that Jones took the flack for replacing Cathy, but perhaps Jill and Dawn had a very, very huge roll in that decision, in which Jones has kept quiet about?



You might be right - its all water over (or under) the bridge at this point. My own belief is that JJ saw the writing on the wall vis a vis Cathy being unable to stand up to the rising threat of Emma Miskew. Perhaps she simply brought in Dawn & Jill to make it seem unanimous - and both front-enders rubber-stamped Jen's pre-made decision!

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Old Post 12-29-16 07:46PM
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CURLER1
Drawmaster

Registered: Oct 2004
Location: Brandon
Posts: 562

Re: Re: replacing Cathy

quote:
Originally posted by Manitoba Legend


You might be right - its all water over (or under) the bridge at this point. My own belief is that JJ saw the writing on the wall vis a vis Cathy being unable to stand up to the rising threat of Emma Miskew. Perhaps she simply brought in Dawn & Jill to make it seem unanimous - and both front-enders rubber-stamped Jen's pre-made decision!



Nope, maybe the front ender's went to Jennifer??

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Old Post 12-29-16 08:06PM
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Deliverer
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Nov 2016
Location:
Posts: 85

Can't believe what I'm reading. j.j. has regularly requested Bonspiel Officials to not place her in the same grouping as xxxxxxx or yyyyyyy? No matter how you slice that, M.L., that's just not right, that's not honest, that's not honourable and it's certainly not ethical. And you say 'not a bad suggestion'? Are you kidding? It's as bad as it can get!

And I would question what kind of an official would entertain her requests. Shame on them; Shame on her.

With respect to the Gimli fiasco, you say Jones 'deserves a certain amount of criticism". Ridiculous. She deserves 100% of the criticism. She had ample chances to diffuse the situation. She didn't take advantage of any of them. Even worse she actually escalated the situation to the nth degree until she got the decision she wanted.

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Old Post 12-29-16 10:13PM
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IN-OFF-FOR-2
Swing Artist

Registered: Mar 2013
Location:
Posts: 421

LET IT GO

Every year skips will mix it up and change players. Martin, Morris a few times, Stoughton, Gushue, KOE, Howard, Howard, Homan, Lawton etc etc. This one just had more exposure due to the team's popularity and success at the time, and the unceremonial "dumping" of COC. Sometimes it hurts but you have to move on.

With the burnt rock incident, agree with above posters she should have accepted the on ice official's ruling. The end. I can't recall ANY OTHER incident where it was not settled on the ice and some grand puba had to come in and impose their own decision. Can anyone else recall any other time this has happened? Bueller?? Bueller?

Last edited by IN-OFF-FOR-2 on 12-29-16 at 11:00PM

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Old Post 12-29-16 10:27PM
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On The Nose
Swing Artist

Registered: Apr 2014
Location: In the House
Posts: 355

Re: LET IT GO

quote:
Originally posted by IN-OFF-FOR-2
Every year skips will mix it up and change players. Martin, Morris a few times, Stoughton, Gushue, KOE, Howard, Howard, Homan, Lawton etc etc. This one just had more exposure due to the team's popularity and success at the time, and the unceremonial "dumping" of COC. Sometimes it hurts but you have to move on.


Indeed, it is not uncommon for players to leave a team - or to be be let go from a team. In most of these cases, we soon see the player in question surface with another top-end team, and, if there was any animosity within the parting, it is usually soon forgotten... And so, it's not a big deal.

What made the Jones - Overton-Clapham situation a big deal was the manner in which it was apparently done. While most of us don't know the intricate particulars of the circumstance, it was widely reported at the time, by several credible sources, that Overton-Clapham was given no advanced notice that she may be cut from the team, that it was done suddenly, and that no reason was given to her, other than that they wanted to shake the team up (I believe I recall hearing Overton-Clapham say that she was given no reason for being let go... and she further said that she didn't see any indication of a problem within the team, and that she considered the other 3 members of the team to be good friends of hers, and so this hurt her a lot).

The fact that the animosity remains between Jones and Overton-Clapham today, several years after the situation occurred, is another indication that something rather radical was said/done when Overton-Clapham was cut from the team. And, given that it was Jones who initiated the situation, and who, as the Skip of the team, was ultimately responsible for Overton-Claphap being 'fired' from the team, the onus for the 'bad blood' between the two certainly seems to be on Jones.

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Old Post 12-30-16 04:14AM
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fresca
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Oct 2008
Location:
Posts: 2344

heh - if you get let go or are traded and you arent given notice and you cant "understand" why - it was probably the lobotomy ...

in curling its because you missed key shots
or
arent a team player
or
you drink or do drugs
or
you dont practise, are cheap and dont pay your share of breakfasts,
or
your personality is abrasive,
or
your deodorant breaks down consistently

its never because you are a delight and curl 100% every game and make the rest of the team look bad., or the others players dont like the decor in your Gulfstream.......

its easier to say nothing and do the deed than have the non fitting member selectively spill the beans .... i have had about 250 tenants in my life , 20 of whom are a pain in the neck - they get treated like the other 230 that never ever contact me about anything ... its a little secret that no one knows about - except me and whoever is in the room with me when i hang up the phone and say my favorite two words ....

happy new year

if you are old and get lost in those new circle drive developments - get a new iphone se - yesterday after 15 minutes of ciircling Bridgewater in south Winnipeg - i hit maps and entered directions and discovered i had gps and a pop up showed i was 2.5 blocks away from my destination and i followed the blue line to the door - i was a moving dot .... today i am going to tape the phone to a curling rock and enter " draw to pot" - probably my only path to the Roar .... if it works ill need a lead, second and third - and ML u can be designated driver if u have a private jet.

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Old Post 12-30-16 05:44AM
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On The Nose
Swing Artist

Registered: Apr 2014
Location: In the House
Posts: 355

quote:
Originally posted by fresca
heh - if you get let go or are traded and you arent given notice and you cant "understand" why - it was probably the lobotomy ...

in curling its because you missed key shots
or
arent a team player
or
you drink or do drugs
or
you dont practise, are cheap and dont pay your share of breakfasts,
or
your personality is abrasive,
or
your deodorant breaks down consistently

its never because you are a delight and curl 100% every game and make the rest of the team look bad., or the others players dont like the decor in your Gulfstream.......

its easier to say nothing and do the deed than have the non fitting member selectively spill the beans ....


And yet, Overton-Clapham seems universally liked and respected by other curlers - to the point of her often being asked by numerous teams to spare for missing players. This would suggest that she is not only not "abrasive", but is very capable of blending in with most people.

Jennifer Jones doesn't seem nearly as well liked or respected for her personality as is Overton-Clapham.

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"It is easy in the world to live after the world’s opinion; it is easy in solitude to live after our own... but the great man is he who, in the midst of the crowd, keeps with perfect sweetness the independence of solitude." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Old Post 12-31-16 12:53AM
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Manitoba Legend
Supreme Champion!

Registered: Jan 2009
Location: Hovel of Fame
Posts: 10869

Agreed that Cathy O is mostly respected. And she's often asked to be a "super-spare" for short-handed international and domestic teams.

What is not explainable for her perceived high talent level is why no super-competitive Canadian team has brought her aboard as a so-called SUPER 3rd?

She's a very good curler, no doubt. Even at 47. But she rarely sustains a high level of play. Also signs in the last tourney she spared that she was imposing herself on the international team she was sparing for.

From a purist point of view (ie. nothing to do with personalities) Jones got herself a 3rd who's easily a better shooter than Cathy O - better on takeouts, about equal on draws & hits stick far more often than COC. Also, Lawes not nearly as feisty or resistant to team strategy.

When you go thru the entire check-list Lawes was equal or better on most counts - except experience!

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Old Post 12-31-16 09:00AM
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Deliverer
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Nov 2016
Location:
Posts: 85

As usual, you failed to grasp the essence of the post, namely:

that 'O is consistently asked to sub for super competitive

world class teams and, that your 'Look At Me Now' heroine

doesn't seem to be nearly as well liked or respected. Period.

Full stop.

Your 'purist' point of view has nothing to do, whatsoever,

with the subject at hand. And if you do not understand this,

it may be worthwhile to read the paragraph above one more

time.

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Old Post 12-31-16 03:58PM
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albetts
Drawmaster

Registered: Jan 2006
Location: Peterborough
Posts: 825

quote:
Originally posted by Deliverer
As usual, you failed to grasp the essence of the post, namely:

that 'O is consistently asked to sub for super competitive

world class teams and, that your 'Look At Me Now' heroine

doesn't seem to be nearly as well liked or respected. Period.

Full stop.

Your 'purist' point of view has nothing to do, whatsoever,

with the subject at hand. And if you do not understand this,

it may be worthwhile to read the paragraph above one more

time.



We REALLY REALLY need a like button.

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Old Post 12-31-16 04:03PM
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On The Nose
Swing Artist

Registered: Apr 2014
Location: In the House
Posts: 355

quote:
Originally posted by Manitoba Legend
Agreed that Cathy O is mostly respected. And she's often asked to be a "super-spare" for short-handed international and domestic teams.

What is not explainable for her perceived high talent level is why no super-competitive Canadian team has brought her aboard as a so-called SUPER 3rd?

She's a very good curler, no doubt. Even at 47. But she rarely sustains a high level of play. Also signs in the last tourney she spared that she was imposing herself on the international team she was sparing for.

From a purist point of view (ie. nothing to do with personalities) Jones got herself a 3rd who's easily a better shooter than Cathy O - better on takeouts, about equal on draws & hits stick far more often than COC. Also, Lawes not nearly as feisty or resistant to team strategy.

When you go thru the entire check-list Lawes was equal or better on most counts - except experience!


Yes, Jones went out and replaced Overton-Clapham with someone who is 20 years younger, someone who has more potential, and, perhaps most importantly, someone who has far less experience, and who would be subservient to Jones, allowing Jones the dominant control she seems to require.
Is Jones a 'team player'? Sure she is... as long as everyone follows her commands.

Perhaps Cathy's only 'crime' was daring to question Jennifer.

__________________
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Old Post 12-31-16 05:06PM
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CURLER1
Drawmaster

Registered: Oct 2004
Location: Brandon
Posts: 562

Cathy

quote:
Originally posted by On The Nose

Yes, Jones went out and replaced Overton-Clapham with someone who is 20 years younger, someone who has more potential, and, perhaps most importantly, someone who has far less experience, and who would be subservient to Jones, allowing Jones the dominant control she seems to require.
Is Jones a 'team player'? Sure she is... as long as everyone follows her commands.

Perhaps Cathy's only 'crime' was daring to question Jennifer.



Perhaps the whole thing had nothing to do with Jennifer?

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Old Post 12-31-16 06:37PM
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IN-OFF-FOR-2
Swing Artist

Registered: Mar 2013
Location:
Posts: 421

Re: Cathy

quote:
Originally posted by CURLER1


Perhaps the whole thing had nothing to do with Jennifer?



Are you trying to say that a major team change with one of the most winning teams would have nothing to do with the skip? Are you kidding? The skip has first and last word on changes with their team. The only time they wouldn't is when the rest of the team dumps the skip. Rare, but does happen.

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Old Post 12-31-16 07:48PM
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On The Nose
Swing Artist

Registered: Apr 2014
Location: In the House
Posts: 355

Re: Cathy

quote:
Originally posted by CURLER1


Perhaps the whole thing had nothing to do with Jennifer?


Uh-huh...
That's why Jennifer and Cathy have avoided each other like the plague since the situation - because Jennifer is wholly innocent and bares no responsibility for the 'firing'.

Let me guess - you think Ed Werenich was the one who made the decision to cut Cathy from Jones's team, right?

__________________
"It is easy in the world to live after the world’s opinion; it is easy in solitude to live after our own... but the great man is he who, in the midst of the crowd, keeps with perfect sweetness the independence of solitude." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Old Post 12-31-16 08:05PM
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CURLER1
Drawmaster

Registered: Oct 2004
Location: Brandon
Posts: 562

Re: Re: Cathy

quote:
Originally posted by IN-OFF-FOR-2


Are you trying to say that a major team change with one of the most winning teams would have nothing to do with the skip? Are you kidding? The skip has first and last word on changes with their team. The only time they wouldn't is when the rest of the team dumps the skip. Rare, but does happen.



I would suppose that of Jenn would have to the deliver the news...she had two options. Surprised how we never hear anything about what the front end's input might have been - oh well!

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Old Post 12-31-16 10:36PM
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CURLER1
Drawmaster

Registered: Oct 2004
Location: Brandon
Posts: 562

Re: Re: Cathy

quote:
Originally posted by On The Nose

Uh-huh...
That's why Jennifer and Cathy have avoided each other like the plague since the situation - because Jennifer is wholly innocent and bares no responsibility for the 'firing'.

Let me guess - you think Ed Werenich was the one who made the decision to cut Cathy from Jones's team, right?




funny - Ed Werenich. he probably, if he watches them, could suggest a change. Yup, that is what I know for sure. Ed phoned up Jenn, cause he probably knows a lot more about the game then ALL of us posters and told Jenn to dismiss Cathy...funny!

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Old Post 12-31-16 10:39PM
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Manitoba Legend
Supreme Champion!

Registered: Jan 2009
Location: Hovel of Fame
Posts: 10869

Re: Re: Re: Cathy

quote:
Originally posted by CURLER1


I would suppose that of Jenn would have to the deliver the news...she had two options. Surprised how we never hear anything about what the front end's input might have been - oh well!



Other than the actual roster change we've heard diddly squat from Jones & her two front-enders. Basically they've buttoned down the hatches and walk away from any questions on the matter. That's well known in curling circles.

However, the person who got herself axed - Cathy O - is way too circumspect when it ocmes to the matter. The only thing she'll repeat upon cross-examination is 'that they told me they wanted to make a change'.

So essentially the entire matter has been left to the imagination of time (something I actually specialize in). As I've said many times - Jones saw the looming threat of Emma Miskew laying waste to all comers. She didn't have confidence in Cathy O confronting Miskew. Cathy also had knee problems and surgeries which topped the soufflé. The tipping point was Cathy starting to argue strategy with JJ - and trying to impose her will. That's probably what set JJ & her fronters off - and when they made a play for Kaitlyn the writing was on the wall. I do think if Kaityln had said no to Jones (not a real possibility) then Jones & Co. would have perservered with Cathy O in the saddle.

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