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thehammer
Knee-Slider

Registered: Mar 2017
Location: Ajax
Posts: 2

Brier divisions next year

Any thoughts on next year's Brier divisional alignment, when they go to 16 teams including all the provinces and territories plus Team Canada and one other team?

Has the CCA indicated where they will place the teams? What do you think would be a fair way to do it? If you aligned the teams geographically - which I don't think they'll do - it would shape up something like this:

West Division

British Columbia
Alberta
Saskatchewan
Manitoba
Northwest Territories
Yukon
Nunavut
Team Canada???

East Division

Newfoundland/Labrador
P.E.I.
New Brunswick
Nova Scotia
Quebec
Ontario
Northern Ontario
16th team???

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Old Post 03-08-17 07:58PM
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Stumpy
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Feb 2016
Location: Ontario
Posts: 44

Re: Brier divisions next year

I'm sure it will be done based on previous year standings. Anything else would be a shock. What to do with the 16th team will be the only question.

Assuming the 16th team is either the Canada Cup winner or points leader I think we see something like:

Pool A: Canada, 4th, 5th, 6th, 9th, 10th, Yukon, PEI
Pool B: 2nd, 3rd, 16th team, 7th, 8th, 11th, 12th, Nunavut

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Old Post 03-08-17 08:25PM
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Gerry
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Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 3885

Curling Canada has a ranking system (CTRS) used for elite play and it only makes sense to seed the pools using it to create a balanced draw.

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Old Post 03-08-17 09:30PM
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Netz
Swing Artist

Registered: Oct 2002
Location:
Posts: 215

What is the reason for not yet naming how the 16th team will be determined.I would have thought this would have been done when the format change was announced.

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Old Post 03-09-17 07:50AM
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misty1
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Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
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quote:
Originally posted by Netz
What is the reason for not yet naming how the 16th team will be determined.I would have thought this would have been done when the format change was announced.


probably because they still dont know themselves

as for how the groups will be split id guess this way with numbers being placement of teams from this year

pool a
1
3
5
7
9
11
16th team
prince edward island or one of the northern teams

if newfoundland wins, since there'd be 2 atlantic provinces here they'll put prince edward island ion pool b so as not to have 3 in one pool. if newfoundland finishes 2nd then prince edward island is in this one

pool b
2
4
6
8
10
12
one of the remaining northern teams
possibly prince edward island, depending on newfoundland's finish

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Old Post 03-10-17 09:09PM
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IN-OFF-FOR-2
Swing Artist

Registered: Mar 2013
Location:
Posts: 425

quote:
Originally posted by misty1


probably because they still dont know themselves

as for how the groups will be split id guess this way with numbers being placement of teams from this year

pool a
1
3
5
7
9
11
16th team
prince edward island or one of the northern teams

if newfoundland wins, since there'd be 2 atlantic provinces here they'll put prince edward island ion pool b so as not to have 3 in one pool. if newfoundland finishes 2nd then prince edward island is in this one

pool b
2
4
6
8
10
12
one of the remaining northern teams
possibly prince edward island, depending on newfoundland's finish





Oh they know alright. They knew the second after the big backlash for relegation 3 years ago. This has been brewing for years.

The pools will be

1, 4, 5, 8, 11, 12, 15, 16


2,3 6, 7, 9, 10, 13, 14

And it WILL be top team CTRS not yet already qualified as decided after the schmozzle of the Calgary relegation.

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Old Post 03-10-17 09:53PM
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gameon
Hitting Paint

Registered: Mar 2007
Location: Lethbridge, Alberta
Posts: 105

quote:
Originally posted by IN-OFF-FOR-2




Oh they know alright. They knew the second after the big backlash for relegation 3 years ago. This has been brewing for years.

The pools will be

1, 4, 5, 8, 11, 12, 15, 16


2,3 6, 7, 9, 10, 13, 14

And it WILL be top team CTRS not yet already qualified as decided after the schmozzle of the Calgary relegation.



I would suggest the fairest way and the method that can actually give incentive to associations is to allot the 16th team to the prov/area/territory that has the highest number of teams entered in playdowns.

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Old Post 03-11-17 01:16AM
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Gerry
CZ Founder

Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 3885

Lots of problems with seeding the event based on last year's records. Upset and different teams coming that don't match the ranking of previous season's teams but also need to consider the team who wins.

Let's say Gushue wins tomorrow, that means NL would be seeded number 1 with what would likely be a team that should be seeded in the bottom third of the field.

CTRS points are the best way to do it.

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Old Post 03-11-17 10:11AM
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ronbro
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Nov 2006
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 12

I think the 16th team will be the Canada Cup winner. Rest balanced on previous year results which could result in a very unbalanced draw depending on who wins each province. Better to rank all qualifiers on some sort of Tour pts, money won and Curl canada ranking points.

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Old Post 03-11-17 10:53AM
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jamcan
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
Posts: 2145

quote:
Originally posted by Gerry
Lots of problems with seeding the event based on last year's records. Upset and different teams coming that don't match the ranking of previous season's teams but also need to consider the team who wins.

Let's say Gushue wins tomorrow, that means NL would be seeded number 1 with what would likely be a team that should be seeded in the bottom third of the field.

CTRS points are the best way to do it.



While the CTRS system is full of holes that need patching, Gerry is correct. At the least it deals with the current results of the individual team in question.

Basing, or imposing, a ranking position on another teams previous years showing is totally inaccurate.

However, here's hoping this is a one year experiment and we return to a saner, 12 team format with only one team representing the Yukon, NWT and Nunavut.

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Old Post 03-11-17 11:27AM
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Gerry
CZ Founder

Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 3885

quote:
Originally posted by ronbro
I think the 16th team will be the Canada Cup winner. Rest balanced on previous year results which could result in a very unbalanced draw depending on who wins each province. Better to rank all qualifiers on some sort of Tour pts, money won and Curl canada ranking points.


It's unlikely they will add a team ahead of provincials since their associations have the approve the move and they will not want to lose a drawing card.

Will likely see the highest ranking CTRS team not qualified get a spot, or better yet I'd like to see 2-4 teams come to the Brier and play a qualifying event/game amongst these teams to prevent any concerns over teams throwing games. Would have been fun to see Carruthers and Epping play a one-game shown for the last berth this season.

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Old Post 03-11-17 12:12PM
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misty1
Supreme Champion!

Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 5033

i dont know, i think having any kind of play in game is a problem. the teams that had to participate in relegation certainly werent fans of the play in style and i doubt any of them really would be.teams want to get there but they dont want to make that trip for potentially only a day and one game and then have to go home again

might be fun for fans but certainly not the players. you'd essentially be recreating the relegation mini tournament but of course no one gets relegated

there's really no way to eliminate suspician of teams throwing games because provincials all run and finish at different dates. even the ones who run on the same day finish at different times. teams are gonna know what needs to happen for them to get to he brier in that spot.

Last edited by misty1 on 03-11-17 at 03:57PM

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Old Post 03-11-17 03:49PM
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Three
Swing Artist

Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 249

quote:
Originally posted by misty1
i dont know, i think having any kind of play in game is a problem. the teams that had to participate in relegation certainly werent fans of the play in style and i doubt any of them really would be.teams want to get there but they dont want to make that trip for potentially only a day and one game and then have to go home again

might be fun for fans but certainly not the players. you'd essentially be recreating the relegation mini tournament but of course no one gets relegated

there's really no way to eliminate suspician of teams throwing games because provincials all run and finish at different dates. even the ones who run on the same day finish at different times. teams are gonna know what needs to happen for them to get to he brier in that spot.



I think a one game playoff between two teams that did not win the right to represent their province is completely different. I had no problem with relegation the way it was but I guess people thought if you won your province of territory you had some right to be in the main field. (Even if you just signed up to 'win' your territory or your province has so few curlers that I have more within a 30 minute drive of my house)

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Old Post 03-11-17 04:05PM
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misty1
Supreme Champion!

Registered: Sep 2011
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quote:
Originally posted by Three


I think a one game playoff between two teams that did not win the right to represent their province is completely different. I had no problem with relegation the way it was but I guess people thought if you won your province of territory you had some right to be in the main field. (Even if you just signed up to 'win' your territory or your province has so few curlers that I have more within a 30 minute drive of my house)



I understand a lot of people as fans didn't. However if you do a 4 team mini round robin as Gerry proposed as an idea then you are essentially just recreating the relegation style mini tournament that the players hated. Not sure how they would feel about a one off . On one hand I'm sure they would jump but I don't think it would take long before players started complaining about it either.

At some point you do have to take what they would like into consideration other wise you end up like the atp or stay. Players are not happy

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Old Post 03-11-17 04:19PM
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EPMD
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Jan 2017
Location:
Posts: 24

If you want a 16th team, you can just invite back the runner up from the prior Brier. That removes all of the points system weirdness and avoids uncertainty over who that extra team will be, pending the provincial playdowns.

I don't think Nunavut, Yukon, and NWT need separate teams. The total population of those territories is still lower than any other province.

I do like moving away from relegation, though. It's just a crappy thing to do to teams to invite them to a tournament and then boot some of them out before everyone gets going.

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Old Post 03-11-17 04:29PM
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Gerry
CZ Founder

Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 3885

quote:
Originally posted by misty1


I understand a lot of people as fans didn't. However if you do a 4 team mini round robin as Gerry proposed as an idea then you are essentially just recreating the relegation style mini tournament that the players hated. Not sure how they would feel about a one off . On one hand I'm sure they would jump but I don't think it would take long before players started complaining about it either.

At some point you do have to take what they would like into consideration other wise you end up like the atp or stay. Players are not happy



Teams hated it because they used to have a spot. The teams who would be playing for this spot would be added to the event and they're also for the most part Tour teams used to this. I can't see them not jumping at a 2nd chance game to get into the Brier/Scotties.

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Old Post 03-11-17 05:34PM
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misty1
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Registered: Sep 2011
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quote:
Originally posted by Gerry


Teams hated it because they used to have a spot. The teams who would be playing for this spot would be added to the event and they're also for the most part Tour teams used to this. I can't see them not jumping at a 2nd chance game to get into the Brier/Scotties.



Teams also hated it because it meant flying down to wherever it was and possibly leaving the next day . Getting there, getting close to the show and then leaving so soon with a bitter taste in your mouth and without ever getting to experience what you went there for.

We're not even including the downside of that 4 team round robin and the fact that it ends up with whoever gets through suffering from fatigue. Those extra games aren't fun to play and it's hard on them. The teams don't want to play 4 extra games.

I'm not a fan of the play in game idea , just award the spot if you must. Or if you do a playing just invite 2 teams and have that game in draw 1. That way the 16th team would only have to play 1 extra game instead of 4

Last edited by misty1 on 03-11-17 at 06:18PM

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Old Post 03-11-17 06:13PM
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Stumpy
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Feb 2016
Location: Ontario
Posts: 44

I don't think you can go to CTRS points leader for the next spot because it may create incentive to lose, and you certainly don't want that.

For example, Brad Gushue would have been guaranteed a Brier spot if the CTRS leader earned the 16th spot. What's his incentive to try to win NL? To take it further, if he DOESN'T win NL, a team with no shot to win the tournament gets into the Brier over a team like Carruthers, Epping, or Laycock, all of whom who would be contenders. If Gushue was looking out for his best interests, he would be best to lose NL to guarantee a weaker field in order to increase his odds of winning the tournament.

By no means am I saying Gushue would do this, but this is an example. Whether teams intentionally do it or not, to suggest not already having a guaranteed position wouldn't change the way teams play is just wrong. You see it all the time in order sports, most recently the Islanders subtly-but-not-so-subtly throwing games down the stretch in the NHL last year to get Florida in the first round and the weaker division in crossover.

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Old Post 03-11-17 07:29PM
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Gerry
CZ Founder

Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 3885

quote:
Originally posted by Stumpy
I don't think you can go to CTRS points leader for the next spot because it may create incentive to lose, and you certainly don't want that.

For example, Brad Gushue would have been guaranteed a Brier spot if the CTRS leader earned the 16th spot. What's his incentive to try to win NL? To take it further, if he DOESN'T win NL, a team with no shot to win the tournament gets into the Brier over a team like Carruthers, Epping, or Laycock, all of whom who would be contenders. If Gushue was looking out for his best interests, he would be best to lose NL to guarantee a weaker field in order to increase his odds of winning the tournament.

By no means am I saying Gushue would do this, but this is an example. Whether teams intentionally do it or not, to suggest not already having a guaranteed position wouldn't change the way teams play is just wrong. You see it all the time in order sports, most recently the Islanders subtly-but-not-so-subtly throwing games down the stretch in the NHL last year to get Florida in the first round and the weaker division in crossover.



I don't think you would see a team lose on purpose either, but should there be a true upset, there would be questions and the winning team wouldn't get full credit.

This is why you can't just take top CTRS team and need to play a game of some sort. Top 2 teams not in the event, play a game for the spot.

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Old Post 03-11-17 08:26PM
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thehammer
Knee-Slider

Registered: Mar 2017
Location: Ajax
Posts: 2

The top four teams in each division make the playoffs. Then what? I haven't seen anything about a playoff format. Thoughts?

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Old Post 03-11-17 10:38PM
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EPMD
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Jan 2017
Location:
Posts: 24

quote:
Originally posted by thehammer
The top four teams in each division make the playoffs. Then what? I haven't seen anything about a playoff format. Thoughts?

I don't know what is planned, but I would like it to resemble what the Cricket World Cup did. They had the top teams from each pool advance and then did another round robin. In this second round robin, you only play against teams you haven't already played, and your record against the teams you did play carries forward to this second round.

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Old Post 03-11-17 10:41PM
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Three
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Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 249

quote:
Originally posted by EPMD

I don't know what is planned, but I would like it to resemble what the Cricket World Cup did. They had the top teams from each pool advance and then did another round robin. In this second round robin, you only play against teams you haven't already played, and your record against the teams you did play carries forward to this second round.



Correct. This is what every sane organization does, hockey, etc. Curling Canada for some insane reason carries over the non-common games as well. Really hope they stop doing this. In the recent junior nationals the men's pool was short one team so they had pools of 7 and 8 teams ...upshot was because it was unbalanced the teams advancing only carried over their record against the other three playoff teams in their pool. Meanwhile the ladies with two pools of 8 carried over their entire record. Again insane.

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Old Post 03-12-17 04:22AM
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Gerry
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Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 3885

quote:
Originally posted by thehammer
The top four teams in each division make the playoffs. Then what? I haven't seen anything about a playoff format. Thoughts?


Top 4 teams in each pool move on to the Championship Pool. Teams play 4 more games against the teams they haven't played yet. Then the Top 4 advance to the Page Playoffs from there.

It's the same format currently used in the Juniors, the Quebec Men also used it this year in their provincials too.

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Old Post 03-12-17 10:46AM
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster

Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 853

The 16th team will be determined by a wild card Friday game between the top two ctrs points teams that did not win their province but they must have played in their provincial play downs to be eligible for the game.

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Old Post 03-14-17 07:26PM
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Three
Swing Artist

Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 249

quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
The 16th team will be determined by a wild card Friday game between the top two ctrs points teams that did not win their province but they must have played in their provincial play downs to be eligible for the game.


Source?

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Who do you think will win?

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