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<smallfont><b><a href=CurlingZone > Chat Forums > General Curling Chat > Rock Talk > Scotties - Down 5 with hammer after 8

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02-25-17 05:02PM
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BDure
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Feb 2016
Location: Vienna, VA
Posts: 90

quote:
Originally posted by guido
Just lost a little bit of respect for Team Carey.


Did McCarville put in their alternate? If so, was that a factor, just to let her play one end?

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02-25-17 09:24PM
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Clappy
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Feb 2017
Location: Livonia, MI
Posts: 37

quote:
Originally posted by Gerry
Dating back to 2009/10 season, women's teams are 3-1342 when down 5 with 2 ends to play. None of those wins has come in the National Scotties.

2016 NWT Scotties:
http://www.curlingzone.com/game.php...owgameid=177164

2015 Fort Rouge Ladies Classic
http://www.curlingzone.com/game.php...owgameid=165686

2014 Cloverdale Cashspiel
http://www.curlingzone.com/game.php...owgameid=142657



Where did you go to find these stats? Is there a database you can search and put in criteria like 5 down with 2 ends to play?

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02-25-17 09:45PM
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guido
Drawmaster

 

Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 869

quote:
Originally posted by Clappy


Where did you go to find these stats? Is there a database you can search and put in criteria like 5 down with 2 ends to play?



Maybe the tv rules made them play 9, I don't know. If so, I retract my statement.

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02-25-17 10:33PM
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curlky
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Registered: Oct 2013
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Posts: 507

quote:
Originally posted by On The Nose

Marathoners don't typically quit before the end of the race just because they can't win, either. And they are in a position where, after the winner crosses the finish line, it is actually impossible (look up the definition of 'impossible') for any other runner to win - and still, they don't quit (unless they are in extreme physical distress).



Marathoners dont quit becuase every single marathon completed is an accomplishment. Also, because of their training schedule in order to be able to run a marathon, they need to log the miles to get better. Marathoners rarely run complete 26.2 miles, they set their training to run that distance at a certain date, adn therefore need to log the miles as I said.


quote:
Originally posted by On The Nose

In tennis currently, Nick Kyrgios has a terrible reputation of being unsportsmanlike. Why? Because he stops trying when he's behind in a match.



Mick Kyrgios gets that reputation because people pay huge amounts of money to watch, and he does not deliver enough to meet expectations. Furthermore, gambling on tennis matches is common (regardless if it should be or not) but his lack of effort matches, along with his countryman Tomic, create a huge issue of potential match fixing for financial gain.

Look, when you are down 8 with 2 to play, if you dont want to concede, then dont. You will be judged for those actions by your fellow curlers as well as your own teammates, but nonetheless it is your right.

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02-25-17 11:21PM
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On The Nose
Swing Artist

 

Registered: Apr 2014
Location: In the House
Posts: 361

quote:
Originally posted by curlky


Marathoners dont quit becuase every single marathon completed is an accomplishment. Also, because of their training schedule in order to be able to run a marathon, they need to log the miles to get better. Marathoners rarely run complete 26.2 miles, they set their training to run that distance at a certain date, adn therefore need to log the miles as I said.


I'm not the one who brought marathon runners into the discussion - I was merely responding to their mention.

quote:
Originally posted by curlky
Mick Kyrgios gets that reputation because people pay huge amounts of money to watch, and he does not deliver enough to meet expectations. Furthermore, gambling on tennis matches is common (regardless if it should be or not) but his lack of effort matches, along with his countryman Tomic, create a huge issue of potential match fixing for financial gain.

Betting on tennis matches has nothing to do with the bad reputation of Kyrgios (or Tomic). It has everything to do with his quitting attitude of not giving anywhere near 100%, which the huge majority of fans, tennis broadcasters and journalists, and his fellow and former players view as a blatant disrespect for other players and for the game.

quote:
Originally posted by curlky
Look, when you are down 8 with 2 to play, if you dont want to concede, then dont. You will be judged for those actions by your fellow curlers as well as your own teammates, but nonetheless it is your right.

No-one in this thread has yet explained why giving 100% to the end, and not quitting, is considered admirable in other sports, while quitting is viewed negatively, and as a sign of disrespect... but in curling, some view it the complete opposite way.

__________________
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Last edited by On The Nose on 02-26-17 at 02:34AM

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03-07-17 08:12AM
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tea&takeouts
Knee-Slider

 

Registered: Aug 2014
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It is an interesting question as to why the culture of curling encourages conceding games whereas as other sports frown on it. I think part of it has to do with the fact that winning a curling match involves running your opponents out of stones, rather than running the opponent out of game clock. In the WCF rules Rule 11.a says a game can end in one of three ways. 1. Whoever has the majority of points at the completion of scheduled play. 2. when one team is arithmetically eliminated (i.e. run out of rocks). 3. when a team concedes victory to its opponent.

I have once had a situation in officiated play where we were up 9 points headed into the final end, and we invoked the arithmetically eliminated rule on the opponent and the umpire agreed. The other team wanted to use the last end as practice, but we had another draw in two hours and wanted food and rest. The team was new to competitive curling, so we politely explained the custom of conceding when you are out of it. In almost every other situation where I've either been run out of rocks or run the other team out of rocks, the concession has been automatic.

So I think from conceding when a team is mathematically eliminated, over time the custom shifted to conceding when you don't think you can come back. This probably grew out of bonspiel culture where conceding early makes sense if one or both teams have more games to play that day, and at the competitive level a large lead like 5 or more is going to turn into target practice (boring for the winning team, demoralising for the losing team).

It is worth keeping in mind that other sports do have concessions built in boxing the trainer can "throw in the towel". Plus in timed professional sports like basketball and football it is very bad form to "run up the score" if the game is out of hand. Often both teams will send out their scrubs (basically the losing side will concede the match by doing this, and then tacitly agree to play a time wasting strategy -- a.k.a garbage time). So it is not the case that in other sports teams don't quit before the end of regulation, its just that the rules don't permit a full concession.

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03-07-17 09:07AM
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On The Nose
Swing Artist

 

Registered: Apr 2014
Location: In the House
Posts: 361

quote:
Originally posted by tea&takeouts

I have once had a situation in officiated play where we were up 9 points headed into the final end, and we invoked the arithmetically eliminated rule on the opponent and the umpire agreed. The other team wanted to use the last end as practice, but we had another draw in two hours and wanted food and rest. The team was new to competitive curling, so we politely explained the custom of conceding when you are out of it. In almost every other situation where I've either been run out of rocks or run the other team out of rocks, the concession has been automatic.


Yes, it's usually an automatic end to a game when the losing team doesn't have enough rocks remaining to tie the score. But I wouldn't hold anything against a team that asks the winning team if they can play all ends - as long as they don't insist on it, because the result is already known.

quote:
Originally posted by tea&takeouts
So I think from conceding when a team is mathematically eliminated, over time the custom shifted to conceding when you don't think you can come back. This probably grew out of bonspiel culture where conceding early makes sense if one or both teams have more games to play that day, and at the competitive level a large lead like 5 or more is going to turn into target practice (boring for the winning team, demoralising for the losing team).

'Bonspiel culture' may be part of the origin of conceding... but there are other sports - tennis, for example - where, at the non-professional and recreational level, it's fairly common to have to play 2 or even 3 matches in the same day (especially if one has entered both the singles and the doubles events in tennis). And conceding (or not giving 100%) in tennis and other sports is considered very bad form.
I think part of the reason that conceding a game in curling became 'normal' was because draws are pretty tightly packed at most clubs - in both bonspiels and in club league play. For example, the 7pm draws are not necessarily finished in time to prepare the ice for the 9pm draws to start at 9pm - so any saving of time is appreciated.

At the elite level, as you said, a significant lead is going to be maintained a higher percentage of the time than at the club level, because they make a higher percentage of their shots.

quote:
Originally posted by tea&takeouts
It is worth keeping in mind that other sports do have concessions built in boxing the trainer can "throw in the towel". Plus in timed professional sports like basketball and football it is very bad form to "run up the score" if the game is out of hand. Often both teams will send out their scrubs (basically the losing side will concede the match by doing this, and then tacitly agree to play a time wasting strategy -- a.k.a garbage time). So it is not the case that in other sports teams don't quit before the end of regulation, its just that the rules don't permit a full concession.

I disagree...
Firstly, in boxing, it's a question of safety, obviously.
In other sports - like basketball or football, as you mention - the teams may put in their reserve players, but usually these reserve players want to use that playing time as an opportunity to show that they merit more playing time - and so will try their best, which is not consistent with conceding.

As for not running up the score... I think that's pretty much a universal unwritten rule across all sports - including curling. But that is separate from conceding, because running up the score is an action of the winning team, whereas conceding is an action of the losing team.

__________________
"It is easy in the world to live after the world’s opinion; it is easy in solitude to live after our own... but the great man is he who, in the midst of the crowd, keeps with perfect sweetness the independence of solitude." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

Last edited by On The Nose on 03-07-17 at 09:09AM

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