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jhcurl
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Sep 2002
Location: US - CT
Posts: 1139

The travel stipend was cut to help with the budget (I think).

Some thoughts to ponder....

Will teams play in events to try and keep points away from other teams?
Does it make sense to travel to tougher spiels and get nothing or stay closer to home and maybe earn a few points?
If a team has no points, should they bother to attend Nationals?
And, worse case scenario, what happens when a team at Nationals loses on purpose to help another team get points/get to the playoffs?

JH

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Old Post 06-06-13 01:03PM
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dbsdbs
Swing Artist

Registered: Feb 2013
Location:
Posts: 305

Not exactly pertinent to this conversation but perhaps interesting nonetheless. From the 2013-14 Curl Manitoba Rulebook:
All teams at a Provincial Championship are competing for the Provincial Title, CurlManitoba reserves the right to select the team to represent Manitoba at all National Championships.

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Old Post 06-06-13 01:16PM
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tuck
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 1908

JH, I believe that a team with no points would attend Nationals in an attempt to become a funded team...or to keep their status as a funded team...or be the National champion, even without Worlds...or to make the Finals and then protest. Lots of good reasons and goals. Protesting might not be the best route to funding, however.

ddbbss, I believe that Curl Manitoba's rule is for bad behavior or teams breaking up, illness or death. If Resby sent anybody but the Tankard winner to the Brier because he thought the winner wasn't good enough, he'd have to leave the province and live in hiding. No, Resby...you can't come to St. Thomas. You are too loud to safely live this close to the border. Try Oklahoma. They are accustomed to large winds. You'd fit right in.

Ben Tucker
St. Thomas, ND
Resby is welcome here any time. He hasn't curled in Grafton for a decade. Time to hide out in a fun place.

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Old Post 06-06-13 01:37PM
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jhcurl
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Sep 2002
Location: US - CT
Posts: 1139

Seems the "plan" is a go, now just waiting on the details.

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Old Post 06-11-13 08:32AM
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AlanMacNeill
Swing Artist

Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 304

Cool, guess I just got a week of my March back.

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Old Post 06-11-13 09:37AM
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jhcurl
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Sep 2002
Location: US - CT
Posts: 1139

A disclaimer: if I posted something here that you thought was an official position of the USCA then I apologize. Most were my opinion, if you have a problem with an opinion of mine you can disagree. However, do not threaten me. We can step outside with that if you want.

If anyone would like to have a private conversation about this then my email and phone number are available on the USCA website, GNCC website and Nutmeg website.

Jeff Hannon (in case you did not know it was me)

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Old Post 06-11-13 04:53PM
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VAcurler
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Jan 2012
Location:
Posts: 52

Timely post from Triangle

I saw something interesting today and decided it was time to get in on the discussion.

The Triangle Curling Club posted this on their blog
http://www.trianglecurling.com/?q=c...nce-be-olympian

It is a nice little post and shows how much of an impact the Olympics has had on the sport (I personally had never seen the sport before the Salt Lake Olympics).

It also has a nice little point about being merit based. You win on the ice, you are Team USA.

These are the selling points the new clubs are making to build interest in the sport.

I understand the intent of the proposal - we really, really, really need to send the best team to Worlds so that we qualify for the Olympics. So how does one constructively suggest thinking outside the box on this for next time (since it appears to late for next year)?

We need more dedicated curlers, willing to commit to being Olympic athletes (semi professional curlers?). As that pool increases (through more participation and coaching) our results should improve. Our efforts need to focus on that not on a better off-ice selection program (although I would like to see a USA Curling coach hand pick a team from willing curlers a year in advance to get practice and preparation before entering Nationals where they have to beat the self formed teams ON THE ICE to become Team USA but that is another can of worms).

Jason

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Old Post 06-11-13 05:01PM
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tuck
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 1908

I find it hard to imagine that anybody thought JH was posting what he believed to be the official USCA position. It always seemed obvious to me that Jeff was posting his own views. I guess confusion could have happened. Lord knows I'm often confused...but this one seems obvious.

Perhaps Hannon is taking heat for not toeing the official line. That would be truly sad. Senators and presidents can voice their opinions. Certainly USCA directors are allowed the same freedom.

I disagree with Director Hannon when he implies that the Proposal is close to being the Format. I imagine that the Executive Committee will need to look over the final draft of the Proposal to insure that it meets the intent of the Authorization Motion and its two amendments (Two Track and On The Ice). During their due diligence, the Exec might have suggestions for improvement that will need to considered by the HP personnel. Perhaps the full Board will wish to weigh in on the matter as well.

The Exec Committee and the full Board are not without options nor are they without influence on the outcome. Both retain significant authority in many areas.

I doubt that Jeff will call me outside for disagreeing with him on the timing. If he does, I think I can outrun him. I don't know what he posted that might get somebody to threaten him. A chilling effect on all directors? Hope not.

Nice blog from Virginia/North Carolina.

Ben Tucker

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Old Post 06-11-13 10:27PM
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masterb
Knee-Slider

Registered: Jun 2013
Location:
Posts: 6

new format

New Format makes no sense last nationals it was pay your own way team Clark 7 high performance fully funded teams 0
what a travesty if one of them had gone to worlds and trust me I saw the worlds up close and none of those teams would have done any better
COMPETITION UNDER PRESSURE IS KEY -- if you can't win that big game you don't belong earning points through OOM is ok for some spots in the nationals but other athletes like Brady's team did last year need a way to qualify as well.
IN MY OPINION intense preparation of the team that wins is the missing essential element not the way that team is picked
IF the USCA adopts a plan that eliminates COMPETITION then many fine young curlers will never have a chance
WHAT A SHAME !!

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Old Post 06-18-13 12:51AM
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jhcurl
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Sep 2002
Location: US - CT
Posts: 1139

Gerry moved the "new" thread here just to consolidate.

Thanks Gerry. I think this thread is "dead" until the details come out.

JH
oops, MY OPINIONS!

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Old Post 06-20-13 05:12PM
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tuck
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 1908

The details are out. Here are some highlights. Don't shoot the messenger...it ain't my plan:

Teams can use up to 5 events. The events can be from anywhere. No requirement for Canadian events nor limit on USA events. All teams start out with zero points.

Limitations on subs...such as subs must be USA playdown eligible and you can only use one sub at each event.

National gold is worth 45 points. Silver is worth 35. A ten point spread. (double the usual National points and I'm using current numbers)

To go to Worlds, a team has to finish on the podium at Nationals...top three. Tie in points is broken by finish at Nationals.

I believe (but could easily be wrong) that this would have sent Team Fenson instead of Team McCormick...even though Team McCormick beat Team Fenson three times in Philly. I also believe that Team Clark would have not gone to Worlds in favor of Team George/Plys. Lastly, I think that the Green Bay Women's Finals would have Team Brown-Tetley already securing Worlds before playing Team George.

Ben Tucker

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Old Post 06-21-13 07:15PM
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jhcurl
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Sep 2002
Location: US - CT
Posts: 1139

Here is the link
http://www.curlingrocks.net/news/ne...orlds-announced

I have NO COMMENT except I need to read it again because it is a bit confusing.

__________________
JH
Lets go Phils!

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Old Post 06-21-13 08:13PM
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Trialsguru
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Feb 2009
Location:
Posts: 17

I would imagine that there will be 3-4 teams at nationals if this format continues. Teams will take a vote at the end of the year (or at the beginning) and gauge their chances of having the most points.

There is not a chance in hell that they will have ten teams (with grown men) playing at nationals. What are the odds of most of these guys taking off work and losing money for an entire week for chance to win a tournament that may not mean anything?!?

I would love to see the rationale with your boss...

Curler: "so boss, we qualified for the national championships again this year so i was hoping I could get off that week.."

Boss: "awesome...what do you get if you win?"

Curler: "well...we used to get free trips all over the world to represent the United States at the World Championships...but now...its a little more complicated...(enter explanation here)"

Boss: "so whats the point...?"

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Old Post 06-21-13 11:37PM
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tuck
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 1908

I might have made a mistake...again:

I think Face Shuster and The Shoosties would have gone to Worlds this year...not Clark nor George/Plys.

There are no foreign and no domestic requirements. A team could play solely in the USA and try to rack up points...a team could play solely in Canada and try to rack up points. I'm not certain this will give Vanilla Ice the results he correctly longs for.

This will certainly put the High Performance staff in a difficult position. They need to approve the schedules of the HPP funded teams. Should they insist on funded teams playing some in Canada (as they should) and a team playing in the USA gathers more points...the funded team not getting to Worlds will the fault of the HPP staff.

Conversely, if the funded teams don't play much in Canada...the HPP staff isn't really doing their jobs.

I suspect that there might be more changes to the High Performance Program coming closely behind this format change. I have high hopes for good things coming along soon.

Ben Tucker

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Old Post 06-21-13 11:42PM
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dbsdbs
Swing Artist

Registered: Feb 2013
Location:
Posts: 305

"The U.S. National Championships shall award teams double the OOM value with a minimum 100% points value; i.e., first place will be worth a minimum of 45 points...
The 2014 U.S. Olympic Team Trials teams will be awarded OOM points at a maximum of 12.5 for first place, i.e. 25% of the National Championships value of 45 points for first place"

So is that 11.5 point for Trials first place, i.e. 25% of the Nationals value of 45 points? Or is Nationals really 50 points so that 12.5 points at Trials is 25% of Nationals value?

Given the stir this has created, guess I thought they might be more careful about this info

Last edited by dbsdbs on 06-22-13 at 05:22AM

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Old Post 06-22-13 05:15AM
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jhcurl
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Sep 2002
Location: US - CT
Posts: 1139

Having read through this document multiple times still have a lot of questions.

How does this coordinate with the Nationals qualifying process? There has been a cutoff date for earning OOM points, is that still in effect?

Most of the Trials teams will earn points. I looked for the Trials format and could not find it. How does 3rd place get determined? I seem to remember it being a double RR? Each game in the RR is worth 4 points, winning 4 games is worth more than winning the Trials since the teams making the playoffs don't get the RR points. Maybe the RR games are 25% as well so it is only one point?

More to come
JH
Time to go look at the WCT OOM stuff

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Old Post 06-22-13 09:25AM
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AlanMacNeill
Swing Artist

Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 304

Math is hard

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Old Post 06-22-13 09:39AM
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Gerry
CZ Founder

Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 3355

Under the Order of Merit, Olympic Trials could be worth as many as 50 points to win, though there are standards of ranking that teams in the event need to reach to get 100% of these points.

In the USA, the Trials will likely be worth 25% of that value based on team rankings, though if all 5 of the men's teams get inside the Top 50 by the time the Trials happen, it could be worth 50% of the values (25 to win, and 50% of all other placings). The 25% (12.5 to win) was locked in so that teams not in the Trials wouldn't be unfairly affected by this change.

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Old Post 06-22-13 10:56AM
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mr. lucky
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Nov 2007
Location:
Posts: 99

Third nerd.....help

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Old Post 06-22-13 12:09PM
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spiroth
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Apr 2012
Location:
Posts: 16

Unbelievable

I oppose this in principle, but if the goal was simply to prevent some fluke team from winning the Nationals and representing the U.S. at Worlds, it might be defensible. The actual system, however, is far worse than I could have possibly imagined. It seems like we will frequently have a situation where a team wins Nationals and doesn't go to Worlds. Everyone involved in this debacle should resign.

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Old Post 06-22-13 01:33PM
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jhcurl
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Sep 2002
Location: US - CT
Posts: 1139

Gerry, here is a question. Do the OOM points reset for everyone at the beginning of the season? So Stoughton is currently #1 and do his points go to zero? Otherwise, if the US teams points are resetting for the season but the "standings" don't reset then the teams with points from last year would count toward getting teams into the top 10, 25, 50?

I hope that makes sense.
Thanks
JH

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Old Post 06-22-13 04:01PM
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Gerry
CZ Founder

Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 3355

quote:
Originally posted by jhcurl
Gerry, here is a question. Do the OOM points reset for everyone at the beginning of the season? So Stoughton is currently #1 and do his points go to zero? Otherwise, if the US teams points are resetting for the season but the "standings" don't reset then the teams with points from last year would count toward getting teams into the top 10, 25, 50?

I hope that makes sense.
Thanks
JH



There's 2 lists on the Order of Merit. One is the 2-year total, which is always LAST YEAR + THIS YEAR, so to start the year it's just last year's points. This "Total" column is used to create the strength of field for events and is the World Ranking.

The YTD (Year to Date, or current season) total starts at 0 every year. The YTD total is the one to pay attention to for the USCA chase. One notable difference is the USCA counts best 5 + Nationals, while the OOM uses best 8 results each year.

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Old Post 06-22-13 04:16PM
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SPMFromPCC
Swing Artist

Registered: Jun 2007
Location:
Posts: 333

Team USA, now for sale to whoever can afford to purchase the needed points. Pathetic.

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Old Post 06-22-13 04:26PM
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Alice
Hitting Paint

Registered: Feb 2012
Location:
Posts: 108

Thanks, JH for one possible rationale for the end of travel stipends last year for nationals' players not on the HP roster.

The latest USA team selection plan means the end of "on-ice" decisions for who will curl as Team USA. Now, HP funded teams have an unfair "off-ice" advantage given their travel, clinic, and coaching support starting this summer in the race for OOM points. Then, what irony, when our national teams are "selected" there is nothing that tells me the HP staff will not edit team rosters right before and even during worlds or the Olympics: Gail Munro, Karen Addison, John Schuster......

It is oh-so-easy to sit in the stands and second guess our many national level teams' abilities to win against increasingly skilled world competitors. This new plan is doubling down on trying to groom a very few cherrypicked players at the expense of the entire national level field. So, thanks to the New Plan, let's wave a fond farewell to the greatest strength of real dyed in the wool skips - their come-from-behind "I am the One responsible" intestinal fortitude no coach or OOM points can give them. Now the ones "responsible" are the HP staff and those with funds to gamble to collect OOM points.

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Old Post 06-22-13 06:19PM
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masterb
Knee-Slider

Registered: Jun 2013
Location:
Posts: 6

new format

Are you kidding me !!!!!
The new format is ridiculous
a team could go to multiple events and never win any of them yet represent the US at worlds
What kind of organization is the USCA running anyway ???
What area would want to host a Nationals with a bunch of teams dropping out at the last minute because they could never get to worlds even if they won the event based on their points ?
First the USCA takes away regional representation then ruins the playdown system entirely, gives virtually no support to participants and now completely degrades the value of a National Championship with its trophy that means a great deal to the past champions that have their name engraved on it.
As a longtime competitor, curler, fan of curling parent of competitive curlers I think this is a travesty.
If this is where competitive curling is going then enjoy your little group. I will not be on the bandwagon anymore.

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Old Post 06-22-13 11:02PM
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