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06-22-15 11:18AM
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Bye-Bye Relegation

Changes to Brier/Scotties formats for 2018, New 3 of 4 residency rule allows import from other provinces and age restrictions eliminated among key changes by Curling Canada:
http://www.curlingzone.com/talk/?p=202

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06-22-15 01:41PM
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JustAnotherHack
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Interesting... and not all that surprising.

A couple of things I'm a bit twitchy over though...

quote:
potential of adding other teams with pre-qualified status


Hmm. Team Canada would fit in this criteria, but would they add more than just one? I hope not. And the logistics of a 14-15 or more team field... will the Brier and Scotties go to a pool system like the Juniors and Mixed (4-player mixed that is)?

The residency rules:

quote:
a new residency policy was adopted by Curling Canada that will allow teams to have one non-resident outside of the Member Association they choose to represent, but the other three players will be subject to stricter proof-of-residency rules that will be enforced by Curling Canada with the co-operation of the players


So now one player per team gets to skip out on the residency requirements. Not surprising... that's been debated to death for both sides, so I won't go there. But I'm interested on how they plan to enforce a "stricter proof-of-residency". Especially since it will be with the "co-operation of the players". I'll be interested to see the details of this plan.

Maybe they'll allow the formation of all-star teams comprised of players from all around the country and then give them pre-qualified status... (ok, that's a stretch but...)

The changes to allow juniors into the competition as well is not a surprise (and it's been done already in some circumstances).

All in all though, it's an interesting change, and more reflecting in reality (the residency change) and the complaints from the member associations (dropping pre-qualifying rounds). We'll see how it plays out.

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Last edited by JustAnotherHack on 06-22-15 at 01:46PM

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06-22-15 02:07PM
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CTRS berths into the Brier would likely be the teams given pre-qualified status. To get to 16 you have the 14 member associations, the returning champion and 1 CTRS berth. Any associations not sending a team would likely be replaced by another CTRS berth.

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06-22-15 03:40PM
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I really hope they do not add any CRTS qualifiers into the brier or scotties. Then they just become another tour event. Might as well add spots into the worlds then too.

Should just stick to the basic 1 team from every provence/territory + team Canada. And dont go to the pools like the juniors have. Every team should play every team once. Put 5 sheets of ice in instead of 4 and its all good.

Really good to hear that age will be taken out of it. In my opinion if you 16 and are good enough to win your province good for you. And maybe in the territories thats the only curlers they will have so its good for them to play and learn.

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06-22-15 03:59PM
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Good for the rule on the juniors. Not sure yet about the extra berth.

I noticed there was some recycling on the board...are there no fresh faces out there? What about Ferby, Martin, Laliberte?

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06-22-15 04:13PM
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getting rid of relegation is something i agree with but i find it hilarious that they are backing down on that so quickly.Makes you wonder why the hell they implemented it in the first place and didnt just go with the format they'll have in 2018 in the first place.

as far as a possible crts birth goes: i hate that idea. 1 province will already have 2 births with the introduction of team canada , what if that one province ends up having 3?. you could have team canada, the crts birth and a provincial champion all from manitoba for example which would just not be good.

im a big fan of getting rid of the age limit too.

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06-22-15 04:14PM
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Gerry
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quote:
Originally posted by Justintwiss
I really hope they do not add any CRTS qualifiers into the brier or scotties. Then they just become another tour event. Might as well add spots into the worlds then too.

Should just stick to the basic 1 team from every provence/territory + team Canada. And dont go to the pools like the juniors have. Every team should play every team once. Put 5 sheets of ice in instead of 4 and its all good.

Really good to hear that age will be taken out of it. In my opinion if you 16 and are good enough to win your province good for you. And maybe in the territories thats the only curlers they will have so its good for them to play and learn.



Not quite so easy. It takes an additional 2 days to play the tournament with 15 teams playing 14 games each on 5 sheets.

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06-22-15 06:28PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Gerry


Not quite so easy. It takes an additional 2 days to play the tournament with 15 teams playing 14 games each on 5 sheets.



This would not have to be the case. 15 team round robin is 105 games. If you play 5 sheets, that's 21 draws. 3 draws per day Saturday through Friday the round robin could be played. And this would only require teams to play 2 games each day for the 7 days. You just have to start play Saturday with a morning draw, instead of the current afternoon start with hot shot finals in the morning.

Playoffs could all be Saturday/Sunday. Tie-Breakers (if required earlier Saturday, maybe a late Friday/early Saturday draw, if you need 3). Page games go in the afternoon/evening (if multiple tie-breakers are going on 1/2 game could either be during the last TB draw or concurrent with 3/4). The semi is Sunday morning. Medal games are afternoon & evening, respectively.

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06-22-15 07:05PM
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Presume, for the moment, that a CTRS berth is granted to nationals. For or against such a berth isn't the question. The issue is WHEN is that berth decided?

A whole can if worms gets opened if you don't decide the berth before the start of playdowns. Why? Because selecting the CTRS team afterwards means that a team already qualified to compete in the Brier has been allowed to impact and alter the outcome of their respective provincial competition.

Here's a simple example. If you're province already grants a CTRS berth to provincials, it declares that team before zones begins - you're not allowed because you've advanced. You don't get to try and eliminate the other guy because it's unfair.

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06-23-15 01:14AM
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quote:
Originally posted by BobbyS


This would not have to be the case. 15 team round robin is 105 games. If you play 5 sheets, that's 21 draws. 3 draws per day Saturday through Friday the round robin could be played. And this would only require teams to play 2 games each day for the 7 days. You just have to start play Saturday with a morning draw, instead of the current afternoon start with hot shot finals in the morning.

Playoffs could all be Saturday/Sunday. Tie-Breakers (if required earlier Saturday, maybe a late Friday/early Saturday draw, if you need 3). Page games go in the afternoon/evening (if multiple tie-breakers are going on 1/2 game could either be during the last TB draw or concurrent with 3/4). The semi is Sunday morning. Medal games are afternoon & evening, respectively.



In 2013 they tried to schedule the playoffs similar to this to eliminate some weekday morning draws. It was not popular and they pushed things back. Last draw of the Round-Robin began at 7:30pm on Friday evening:
http://www.curlingzone.com/event.ph...ound-Robin&tp=0

Under the current format the final round robin draw is at 8:30am on Friday morning.

It's great for fans to have a tighter weekend, a better experience with more games, but the teams do require rest and preparation time for the playoff games as well as the practices and rock selection prior to these games.

Other things to consider for the event is other activities that take place including team practices and the Hot Shots competition. There's also the opening banquet. With the time it takes for all of these activities, it would still require starting on Thursday at some point.

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06-23-15 01:18AM
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Gerry
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quote:
Originally posted by jamcan
Presume, for the moment, that a CTRS berth is granted to nationals. For or against such a berth isn't the question. The issue is WHEN is that berth decided?

A whole can if worms gets opened if you don't decide the berth before the start of playdowns. Why? Because selecting the CTRS team afterwards means that a team already qualified to compete in the Brier has been allowed to impact and alter the outcome of their respective provincial competition.

Here's a simple example. If you're province already grants a CTRS berth to provincials, it declares that team before zones begins - you're not allowed because you've advanced. You don't get to try and eliminate the other guy because it's unfair.



If you select it before playdowns, using a standardized date like December 1st works. It's where I believe the majority of other provinces uses as a date. Would be easy enough to align.

The other option discussed is to award the CTRS Berth to the Highest non-qualified team after all the Provincials have been completed.

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06-23-15 08:44AM
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awarding a crts birth just ruins it. you dont earn the right to represent your province that way. thats a really horrible idea.

a crts team wouldnt deserve their spot in any way.

Last edited by misty1 on 06-23-15 at 09:48AM

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06-23-15 09:02AM
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what would a CTRS team be Called? theyre not representing any province. a 2nd team Canada?

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06-23-15 01:02PM
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quote:
Originally posted by misty1
awarding a crts birth just ruins it. you dont earn the right to represent your province that way. thats a really horrible idea.

a crts team wouldnt deserve their spot in any way.



Have to disagree. Given the commitment and clearly success against the best teams in the world over a long period of time they've earned the right to compete in a National Championship, represent their country at a World Championship, AND gain one of the spots available for the Olympic Trials. (winner that makes podium at Worlds gets into Trials)

Now, if you believe the Brier is a competition amongst provinces, then they don't belong, nor does Team Canada, but we're past that point now.

The major issue I see now is still this residency issue. 4 of the 18 potential spots in the Olympic Trials (22%) for winning Brier or Scotties will ONLY be available to teams which are 3/4 from the same province. Still not sure I agree with the principle here but given all the factors (sponsors, TV, provincial interests, etc) maybe this is the best scenario for now.

However, let's look another way. Professional athletes usually move/live (or at least own an apartment) in the city they play in. Depending on how they define the new national restrictions on residency, this still may happen in curling and defining where someone actually "resides" becomes even more blurry.

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06-23-15 02:27PM
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Regardless of how this plays out, the fact that they got rid of the relegation system is the significant victory here. From its very inception, to how they treated the relegation round curlers as second-class citizens, the concept was a bad idea from the start. Possibilities for a 16th team to make it two even pools?:

Northern Alberta
Toronto
Ottawa
Canada Cup Winner
Leading CTRS Leader
Team J-Ho

Just suggestions...
JH

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06-23-15 02:49PM
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quote:
Originally posted by misty1
awarding a crts birth just ruins it.


I'm confused. What does getting pregnant and having kids have to do with it? Will this apply only to the female teams?

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06-23-15 04:42PM
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quote:
Originally posted by milobloom


Have to disagree. Given the commitment and clearly success against the best teams in the world over a long period of time they've earned the right to compete in a National Championship, represent their country at a World Championship, AND gain one of the spots available for the Olympic Trials. (winner that makes podium at Worlds gets into Trials)

Now, if you believe the Brier is a competition amongst provinces, then they don't belong, nor does Team Canada, but we're past that point now.

The major issue I see now is still this residency issue. 4 of the 18 potential spots in the Olympic Trials (22%) for winning Brier or Scotties will ONLY be available to teams which are 3/4 from the same province. Still not sure I agree with the principle here but given all the factors (sponsors, TV, provincial interests, etc) maybe this is the best scenario for now.

However, let's look another way. Professional athletes usually move/live (or at least own an apartment) in the city they play in. Depending on how they define the new national restrictions on residency, this still may happen in curling and defining where someone actually "resides" becomes even more blurry.



no, i disagree. winning your provincial championship earns you the right to compete at a national championship and possibly rep your country at a world championship. all that doing well on the tour means is that you won a lot of money. if teams that people think should be at the brier cant earn their right there then to bad so sad.and even if i agree with you than why wait until now to implement this? why not do it a couple of years ago when the likes of martin, howard and stoughton were still around and at the top of the game.

In the case of a team like mcewen it might get him into a brier and he might win it but if he never won a provincial title there would always be the shadow over his career saying that he couldnt get there on his own , the spot had to be given to him. I dont know but i think if you ask most teams they'd be against it. most teams want to earn the right to get to the brier because they take pride in winning those provincial hearts.

the brier is a competition among provinces and thats the way it should stay and, before you ask, no i dont really agree with the concept of team canada. The fact is that with this birth 1 province could have 3 teams present , is that right? no.

since its creation the brier and the curling tour have been separate and had nothing to do with each other and it should stay that way.

the olympic spots being awarded by that birth makes sense because the olympics isnt about representing your province.

Last edited by misty1 on 06-23-15 at 05:00PM

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06-23-15 06:51PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by J-Ho
Regardless of how this plays out, the fact that they got rid of the relegation system is the significant victory here. From its very inception, to how they treated the relegation round curlers as second-class citizens, the concept was a bad idea from the start. Possibilities for a 16th team to make it two even pools?:

Northern Alberta
Toronto
Ottawa
Canada Cup Winner
Leading CTRS Leader
Team J-Ho

Just suggestions...
JH
[/QUOTE

Qualifying a team through points might backfire if Gushue gets in and Newfoundland sends another rep #nottoodeep

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06-23-15 07:53PM
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quote:
Originally posted by insideout
[QUOTE]Originally posted by J-Ho
Regardless of how this plays out, the fact that they got rid of the relegation system is the significant victory here. From its very inception, to how they treated the relegation round curlers as second-class citizens, the concept was a bad idea from the start. Possibilities for a 16th team to make it two even pools?:

Northern Alberta
Toronto
Ottawa
Canada Cup Winner
Leading CTRS Leader
Team J-Ho

Just suggestions...
JH
[/QUOTE

Qualifying a team through points might backfire if Gushue gets in and Newfoundland sends another rep #nottoodeep



thats also true. the birth based on points could easily backfire and let some of those weaker teams that people on here complain about get through. thats something that people who are in favor of awarding a birth based off points should be aware of.

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06-23-15 08:31PM
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Yeah, I tend to be in the camp of no CTRS berth for a national championship like the Scotties and Brier. Curling Canada already has an event that fills that role (Canada Cup).

The special thing about the Brier and Scotties is that you get to represent your province in a national event. You've had to earn the right to represent your province (even Team Canada had to do that at some point), and it should be something special.

Is it entirely fair that someone like Team McEwen has been shut out, while some also-rans get to make it? No. But that hasn't affected their ability to make it to the Olympic Trials and the Canada Cup... and you know full well how much it means to them to earn that berth and represent Manitoba in the Brier.

Now you can argue that with the change in residency rules, there are no "true" provincial teams. But at least a team has to grind it out in a province and earn that berth to the Brier/Scotties (or they had to win the thing the previous year)... and I think that does make you attached to the province your representing.

And there was a really good point about the logistics of handing out berths to the CTRS. If it's not done right, it will screw up provincial championships... and if you hand them out after the fact to the best non-qualifier, it sure seems like a bit of a consolation prize doesn't it?

(On an aside, I would like to see the Territories combine again and be offered a single spot for all the national championships. Have Curling Canada subsidize Territorial Championships (travel is not cheap up north) and that might solve a bit of the logistics of running the events.)

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06-23-15 10:35PM
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quote:
Originally posted by misty1


thats also true. the birth based on points could easily backfire and let some of those weaker teams that people on here complain about get through. thats something that people who are in favor of awarding a birth based off points should be aware of.



Berth?

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06-24-15 01:19AM
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You could allow the teams who qualify via CTRS berths to still be named after their province. Nothing wrong with Alberta 1, Alberta 2, etc.

As for reasoning, Curling Canada receives a large portion of their funding based on World Championship and Olympic Medal results. By leaving quality teams at home for the National Championship, they're missing out on important development opportunities.

Curling Canada needs to be able to balance the history and tradition of the Brier/Scotties with the demands of high performance. This solutions begins to fit into both categories that should keep everyone happy.

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06-24-15 03:27AM
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So maybe not CTRS but Canada Cup winner qualifies. Canada Cup winner qualifies directly and doesnt have to play their province.

I like the 16 team draw with 2 pools and then the top 4 teams of each team proceed to the "championship poule"

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06-24-15 08:19AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Gerry
You could allow the teams who qualify via CTRS berths to still be named after their province. Nothing wrong with Alberta 1, Alberta 2, etc.

As for reasoning, Curling Canada receives a large portion of their funding based on World Championship and Olympic Medal results. By leaving quality teams at home for the National Championship, they're missing out on important development opportunities.

Curling Canada needs to be able to balance the history and tradition of the Brier/Scotties with the demands of high performance. This solutions begins to fit into both categories that should keep everyone happy.



Canada does just fine at worlds already without needing to add the points leader to the brier,they arent struggling for funding based off what canada has been doing at worlds lately. nice try. I fail to see what important development opportunities they are missing out on by leaving a mcewen or an epping at home. the fact is that the top teams from provinces regularily make it to the brier already. the only 2 that havent been able to are epping and mcewen. i say let them earn their right there.

Last edited by misty1 on 06-24-15 at 08:54AM

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06-24-15 09:46AM
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Justintwiss
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Registered: Oct 2013
Location: St.Claude
Posts: 128

So lets pretend for a minute that I like the idea of 2 pools of 8 at the brier. Now the 16 teams will be seeded. If Mike is there and Jacobs is there they will be seeded 1-2. Pretty much a sure thing. So as a fan of curling, I want to see that game. But I wont get to because they are in 2 seperate pools. They might not get to play at all. So you cant Market that game to the fans leading up to the brier because it might not happen at all. In a true round robin at least you will get that game at least once, possibly 3 times counting playoffs.

Also with the pools you always get one pool of "death" and one weaker pool. So if you win the weak pool do you really deserve to be the 1 seed going into playoffs when you'd probably be in a tie breaker game in a full round robin?

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