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10-20-14 04:06PM
alGFunguy is offline Click Here to See the Profile for alGFunguy Click here to Send alGFunguy a Private Message Find more posts by alGFunguy Add alGFunguy to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
alGFunguy
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Nov 2011
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Another spot removed for Men's/Women's Nationals

Who in their right mind thinks that this is right/just/fair?

At most... give the juniors a free pass into the challenge round... fund them... I can see that...but...
Free pass to the top 10? No.

What can be done to appeal this?


National Championships: Two Nationals spots will be awarded each year (men and women) to High Performance Program teams and one spot will be awarded each year (men and women) to the Junior National champion. (The Junior National champions will receive a registration and fee exemption for the National Championships).
Two Nationals spots will be awarded to the top two Order of Merit (OOM) Men's and Women's teams not already qualified. The OOM teams can be found on the World Curling Tour website at www.worldcurl.com. The remaining five men's and women's National Championship spots will be determined at a single Challenge Round event.

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10-21-14 10:38AM
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dbsdbs
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I don't have a problem with this. The junior champ may well be a stronger team than the last team to lose out in the challenge round and, in any event, ceding the junior champ into the nationals gives them experience to build on going forward.

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10-21-14 12:44PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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The Jr champion MIGHT be... but most likely WON'T be as strong as that 6th team.

What's wrong with letting it be decided on the ice?

Free passes are political and should not be part of this system.

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10-21-14 12:50PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Jul 2013
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"What's wrong with letting it be decided on the ice?

Free passes are political and should not be part of this system. [/B][/QUOTE]"

Ha, that ship has sailed....

__________________
-Mike Moore

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10-21-14 01:17PM
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dbsdbs
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quote:
Originally posted by alGFunguy
The Jr champion MIGHT be... but most likely WON'T be as strong as that 6th team.

What's wrong with letting it be decided on the ice?

Free passes are political and should not be part of this system.



Based on recent Nationals, I suspect the Jr Champs most likely WILL be as strong as that 6th team. For sure, that 6th team is not going to demonstrably better than the Jr team so it makes sense to give the Jr team that experience.

As runinrock noted, deciding it on the ice and no free passes have long ago been eliminated as criteria for Nationals.

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10-21-14 03:16PM
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alGFunguy
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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quote:
Based on recent Nationals,


Because so many of the most recent nationals has had the jr national champs in the final 10?
Good argument...

FOR ME TO POOP ON!!!!!!!

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10-21-14 04:09PM
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dbsdbs
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quote:
Originally posted by alGFunguy


Because so many of the most recent nationals has had the jr national champs in the final 10?
Good argument...




I was not referring to jr champs being in recent nationals but to the level of play in recent nationals. And based on the level of play we have seen, it makes sense to add Jr champs to the playdowns. If you are on a team that hopes to be the 6th qualifier, this change might be a threat. If not, then it makes all the sense in the world.

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10-21-14 07:21PM
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Alice
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quote:
Originally posted by runinrock
"What's wrong with letting it be decided on the ice?

Free passes are political and should not be part of this system.

"

Ha, that ship has sailed.... [/B][/QUOTE]

Yes, the ship has sailed steered by the USCA board whose captain's letter in "Curling News" makes clear he is personally "embarassed" at the state of curling in the USA thanks to our recent low world medal count. Nowhere in that letter any pride about our growing number of arena clubs and dedicated ice facilities while Canada is losing facilities and numbers of competitive curlers. Nor any mention of the many new countries with world class teams deepening the world pool. In his race for "consistent competitive excellence" required by USOC all hands and their donations are in a little "Team USA" lifeboat for short term sucess. That lifeboat will only get smaller as the HP staff job-protection rules pass out lifevests to ever smaller numbers of competitive curlers.

Anyone see the dollar rates for sponsor appearances for each kind of world class USA curler in a new appendix to the adhesion Athlete Agreement? Doubting we'll ever see which USA curlers earned what appearance fees and travel reimnbursements last year or this season either given the secrecy clauses all of them must sign. Good luck to those with lifevests or who grab one by force. Good Curling! aboard the Titanic.

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10-21-14 10:05PM
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dbsdbs
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quote:
Originally posted by Alice
"

Yes, the ship has sailed steered by the USCA board whose captain's letter in "Curling News" makes clear he is personally "embarassed" at the state of curling in the USA thanks to our recent low world medal count. Nowhere in that letter any pride about our growing number of arena clubs and dedicated ice facilities while Canada is losing facilities and numbers of competitive curlers...



And just a passing mention of Senior Women medalists - no time to congratulate them? Instead, only a reminder that we need to raise more money so we can all be proud to be part of Team USA Curling. Inspiring message...

Last edited by dbsdbs on 10-21-14 at 10:24PM

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10-21-14 11:12PM
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Another interesting rule in the mandatory Athlete Agreememt is clause 3(l) wherein winning teams for men, women and junior worlds must use the HP "National Coaching Team" which now claims ultimate control over team line-up and 5th selection. Wondering what will happen when an on-ice winning team not in the HP program wants its own coach at worlds.

But rapture unforseen! So far seniors, college, and mixed teams might be able to pick their own 5ths and coaches under clause 3(l). (Paralympians seem left out, too?) Any guesses how soon all USA mixed teams at worlds must be on the OOM lists and entreched in the HP program, too, to have a prayer of being selected for Mixed Worlds by Team USA's "National Coaching Team" no matter their on-ice performance in any mixed nationals?

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10-22-14 08:51AM
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AlanMacNeill
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Oh, that answer is easy...

Approximately 15 minutes after Mixed curling becomes an Olympic Medal event.

The paralympians will remain free until such time as The Media cares about the paralympics

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10-22-14 08:52AM
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AlanMacNeill
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quote:
Originally posted by dbsdbs


And just a passing mention of Senior Women medalists - no time to congratulate them?



If it ain't on NBC, it ain't part of the Vision, so who cares?

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10-22-14 05:36PM
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SPMFromPCC
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They haven't touched mixed doubles.....yet. Again, that probably won't happen until it's in the Olympics. A similar lockdown will probably happen to mixed team when/if it makes the Olympics, as Alan said. Feh.

I believe, if I read the rules correctly, that any player that refuses to sign the HP agreement (which effectively gives the HP coaches say in virtually all team-related matters) will not go to worlds. If two or more players do that, the entire team doesn't go and the HP staff selects whoever they want. Additionally, they 5th player must be HP approved, AND that 5th can play anytime the HP coaches decide to insert them into the lineup.

In other words, HP pretty much has total and utter dominance over team lineup and decisions. It's not in the hands of the players in any way whatsoever....which I'm pretty sure is precisely how they want it. Can't really trust the athletes/champions to make proper decisions on their own, can we? Yeah.....

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10-22-14 05:39PM
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mr. lucky
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quote:
Originally posted by Alice
[B]Another interesting rule in the mandatory Athlete Agreememt is clause 3(l) wherein winning teams for men, women and junior worlds must use the HP "National Coaching Team" which now claims ultimate control over team line-up and 5th selection. Wondering what will happen when an on-ice winning team not in the HP program wants its own coach at worlds. [B]


I can see the National Coaching team supporting the teams coach at worlds, but replacing the coach of the winning team is just plain foolish.

The National Coach would not know how the team operates, why they win, and why they lose. How could they be effective at the Worlds. The National Coaches should be the "team around the team".

Last edited by mr. lucky on 10-22-14 at 05:49PM

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10-22-14 06:51PM
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Yes, Mr. Lucky we now get to the real issue. Power and control over which Number 1 Coach of the National Coaching Team gets any medals at worlds or the Olympics and all the perks associated with being such a VIP. (Why coaches even get medals beats me. But that ship sailed, too.) The Titanic lifeboats only had space for First Class passengers and some staff.

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10-22-14 07:37PM
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Don't really don't think thats the case Alice. I just think they want the US to win, and that they represent the best chance for that to happen.

The best chance for that to happen is not to disrupt the continuity of a winning team, but rather supplement whatever that team needs through the existing coach.

If I was lucky enough to coach at the worlds again, I can think of a lot of things the Nationals could do to make us a stronger team. Running the team wouldn't be one of them.

Last edited by mr. lucky on 10-22-14 at 07:51PM

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10-22-14 08:20PM
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Of course, the official reason is to win, win, win but until the National Coaching Team expressly allows in its written rules and athlete agreement a winning skip to have the option to pick a non-HP coach to be a Number 1 coach at worlds or Olympics - and bump off the plane an HP coach if budgets are too tight - as you wrote, the HP coaching "team" think they and they alone have all the answers at world level. I just see hubris, Icarus and that infamous sinking ship with its crew locking the gates to poor folks in steerage.

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10-22-14 11:15PM
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dbsdbs
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quote:
Originally posted by Alice
Of course, the official reason is to win, win, win but until the National Coaching Team expressly allows in its written rules and athlete agreement a winning skip to have the option to pick a non-HP coach to be a Number 1 coach at worlds or Olympics - and bump off the plane an HP coach if budgets are too tight - as you wrote, the HP coaching "team" think they and they alone have all the answers at world level.


And because the HP team thinks they have all the answers, then it is so. Amazing

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10-23-14 12:51PM
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WEll...I propose a very simple yardstick...

*IF* the HPP's program fails to beat Brazil, fire them all.

http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Curling/...ricas-Challenge

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10-23-14 03:06PM
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Such anger! Really? The substitution of the Junior champs brings forth such passion?

I'm bright enough (barely) to understand that this is just yet another small change and that any change will reignite the passions enflamed by previous changes. Still...really?

To those who were disappointed in Dave Carlson's column, let's be a little bit cool and a little more understanding here. He's not a writer. Before you publicly castigate the man and privately castrate him, remember that he is a very nice guy and a very good man. He, too, has a Senior title. He works very hard and gets very little in return to help USA curling. Carlson also tolerates disagreement very well...unlike most of us...especially me.

Mr. Lucky, a question for you (off topic for this thread) when you have the time: As you see it, if you were coaching a team (let's say at World Juniors) and they started out 2 and 3...then the USCA HPP coach wants to bring in the fifth to skip, bench your second, move your skip to third and third to skip...do they have the authority? Would they do it? (I think they have proven that they would) Should a coach stand up to them? Should the team revolt against the move? You may try to deflect my question by claiming it is hypothetical and unlikely to ever happen...but nobody's dumb enough to fall for that.

Let's keep it civil, people. I get enough righteous anger from FoxNews/MSNBC (just kidding...I never watch either). Overstating your case is dooming your case. It drives people to the other viewpoint and causes other to ignore you. Some of Alice's stuff is quite witty, but it is buried in so much anger that it is impossible to smile. Keep fighting the good fight, Alice...but remember these are good people that you are fighting against. They are wrong, but they are still good people.

Ben Tucker
simply asking for a favor...a touch of civility...this site is starting to read like polarizing political poop

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10-23-14 03:28PM
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Adding to Tuck's question if I may.

I read recently (anyone got a link for me?) that one thing that makes a great teammate is complete belief in your skip. If as a front end player you are 100% committed that the skip will make the shot, the skip will start to believe it and make most of those shots (even when skill says they probably shouldn't). The team aspect of curling is what makes these annual lineup changes so interesting - the difference in skill at that level is so small it is about picking the right players, not the best ones.

If the top coaches believe this (as I do) then how could they pull the skip when the team is doing poorly? That would destroy the team part of the rink and turn it into a collection of four individuals.

Or maybe hearing Mike Eruzione talk about the value of believing in your teammates has brainwashed me.

Jason

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10-23-14 04:29PM
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could you imagine giving a Brier exemption to a junior team? or the Scotties? or the European Championships?

or can you imagine the USGA Open (golf) giving an exemption to a junior golfer?

this decision baffles me.

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10-23-14 04:41PM
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jhcurl
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I have avoided posting in this thread but now I have a few things to say. I might get "scolded" for this but so be it.

This site welcomes OPINIONS from everyone. When you post that taking away a spot from the challenge round and giving it to the JR winner is a bad idea, that is an opinion. When you accuse the Board (and me) of being a lackey to the USOC that is not an opinion. I take it as a personal attack. When you think the board marches to the orders of the USOC, you are wrong. When you think that NBC has some say in what happens, again you are wrong. Those are not opinions, those are false statements.

If you think the board is a bunch of yes men/women, you are wrong. If you think that every decision that is made is not debated, sometimes for hours, you are wrong. If you think that the board gets paid to attend meetings and such, you are wrong. No one paid me to go to Denver/Minneapolis/Boston for board meetings. I am lucky enough that the GNCC is a very robust region and can reimburse some of my expenses but there are still out of pocket costs. Almost all regions provide nothing to the directors attending including the Chair, Dave Carlson.

Think you can do a better job running the USCA? There will be a CEO search upcoming. Submit your application and resume.

JH
rooting for the USA teams at Worlds to do better, don't care who they are

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10-23-14 05:03PM
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I'll also stand up for Dave Carlson. I know he is working very hard to get the organization back on track.

Last edited by mr. lucky on 10-23-14 at 05:44PM

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10-23-14 07:06PM
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Oh, Tuck. Believe me, I'm not angry at all. Laughing, yes. But, very sad, too, at what's happened to the Spirit of Curling with these new rules.

I've also a feeling of horror the national team with these new rules has turned coach-centric which means the players will turn into fungible pieces of plastic to be pushed around like chess pieces on a chess board at world and national events by our national coaching team. "This junior team pawn piece to the adult national game board and toss that adult 6th team off the board!" Gives new meaning for "coach intervention," no?

I've heard the well-sourced stories of at least one self-formed curling team on the planet being told by national coaching staff as they left the ice winners of an Olympic trials they hadn't a chance of doing well at the Olympics and so should just plan to peak for worlds instead, and another self-formed team refusing to talk to national coaches at a worlds. Truth or fiction? If true, that's a horror in my opinion while I realize reasonable minds may differ on that and would be interested to hear any coach justification of such events. But if false, or an "exageration" or "taken out of context" rationale, does it really matter as long as on-ice winning curlers have no power at all in a coach-centric system to prevent such happenings?

Nice to hear some top coaches outside the HP program are getting a greater voice somewhere. Keep that up and the USA might met the USOC goal of "consistent" competitive success.

Last edited by Alice on 10-23-14 at 08:48PM

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