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10-15-15 12:52PM
Phil_D is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Phil_D Click here to Send Phil_D a Private Message Visit Phil_D's homepage! Find more posts by Phil_D Add Phil_D to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
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20+ Top-Level Teams Sign Broom Agreement

http://www.teamcanadacurl.ca/blog/r...lite-teams-125/

Credit to teams for taking initiative on this and working out an interim solution. No doubt more teams will be signing this in the near future.

Obviously this doesn't resolve the issue, but it is a very very important first step. The players have done what was asked of them by Curling Canada (work out the issue among themselves), now it's up to the WCF/Curling Canada to work on a permanent solution.

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10-15-15 01:04PM
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Would love to know what heads they are specifically referring to when they say "directional fabric". And would be great to see the video evidence of backing up a rock 3 feet.

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10-15-15 04:25PM
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I would love to see the evidence too. I still say if it doesn't damage the ice then the new technology should be embraced. I do applaud the players taking the initiative since I don't want various organizations making more rules and regulations for a problem that may not exist. If all teams have access to the new products then I don't see what the problem is (assume ice isn't damaged).

On another point, since McEwen signed this agreement does that mean he will not be using HL brooms or did his team have special HL brooms? Or is this agreement just for the new Lite speed Balance Plus brooms?

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10-15-15 05:00PM
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I think the big question now is which specific broom heads are people talking about that use "directional fabric."

Obviously the head on the new Balance Plus LiteSpeed is one. What about the Hardline IcePad though? Is that one of them, or is there a new prototype IcePad that only sponsored teams have been given? Any other manufacturers involved?

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10-15-15 05:31PM
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Hardline has changed the fabric of their broom heads a couple of times... but I haven't seen a difference between the ones from last year to this year yet.

Of course, stores and pro shops may not be getting the stuff the pros are getting.

I think we need to look at the reflective strips in the broom heads too...

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10-15-15 05:37PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Phil_D
I think the big question now is which specific broom heads are people talking about that use "directional fabric."

Obviously the head on the new Balance Plus LiteSpeed is one. What about the Hardline IcePad though? Is that one of them, or is there a new prototype IcePad that only sponsored teams have been given? Any other manufacturers involved?



Hardline doesn't use "directional fabric"(which is a really bad term, and misleading), and sponsored teams use the same icePads that are available to everyone.

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10-15-15 05:53PM
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Phil_D
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quote:
Originally posted by jcullen


Hardline doesn't use "directional fabric"(which is a really bad term, and misleading), and sponsored teams use the same icePads that are available to everyone.



That's what I thought.

Thanks for clarifying.

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10-15-15 05:55PM
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Hardline has issued a press release:

http://hardlinecurlingnews.blogspot...se-october.html

Well worth the read.

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10-15-15 06:23PM
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JustAnotherHack
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quote:
Originally posted by Phil_D
Hardline has issued a press release:

http://hardlinecurlingnews.blogspot...se-october.html

Well worth the read.



They have a point. Should be interesting what happens next.

However, to be honest, I am a bit disgusted at how some elite curlers, specifically the Balance Plus sponsored ones, pulled this little stunt to try to smear Hardline. I expect better from competitive curlers, but apparently I was wrong.

Looks folks, if you had a problem with those brooms, why did you not say something last season? They've been around for 2+ seasons with the current fabric... and now suddenly they're a problem?

Please.

Now I know some of you are going to say that it took two years for teams to figure out how to modify their sweeping to better manipulate the rock. Well, if the problem is how teams are sweeping, change the rule back to having to sweep in front of the entire traveling surface of the rock at a 45-90 degree angle path to the rock. Don't allow for corner sweeping or any other modified sweeping motion. Wouldn't that address some of the issues?

One thing I know... I'm going to have to think long and hard before I'll ever buy a Balance Plus product (Goldline may be next on the list too, but they've kept their response a bit more subtle for now). This little show that they've put on with their sponsored teams leaves a very foul taste in my mouth. And it might just leave a foul taste in the mouths of a lot of club curlers if you force them to abandon equipment that they've shelled out a lot of money on.

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10-15-15 06:37PM
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Phil_D
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quote:
Originally posted by fresca
what would you expect them to say ...

if someone watched mcewan and carruthers slam games from 2014 and 2015 and made some notes i bet something would be very obvious


a few of the players that were miked missed a lot of shots that they never should have - we often heard - " it runs stright here " and but after an a abrasive sweep the next few shots ran funny ----

probably mike and reid saw what was happening - they probably saw 10 rocks affected every game .. the first few games of an event were against less sophisticated teams and not every shot needed to be "adjusted "

in the finals we heard the other teams questioning the ice -- mike harris and particlarly a woman commentator kept blaming the releases and the deliveries - it made me so mad i turned the sound off

pretty easy to test this - like about an hour -- it should have been done years ago

if they cut the ice and cause shrads or as the jewish voters in florida call them shards of ice - BAN THEM



I have no skin in the game. I'm a lousy club curler (and on hockey ice no less), and I'm not sponsored by anybody. I use a Goldline broom with a Norway pad.

I agree. As I've said here and elsewhere, if a broom head is destroying the ice then ban it. Heck, it's already against the rules if it's doing that.

Well yeah, of course Hardline is going to defend themselves, as they should. Their future could be on the line here. I wouldn't expect anything else.

Like I said, I have no skin in this other than as a fan and I'm trying to stay as objective as possible with this whole thing. I do think that every side should have their say though, and I think that what Archie said in their press release certainly warrants reading and consideration.

John Cullen also made an excellent point on Twitter earlier, and John if you see this I hope you don't mind my quoting you here:

"Say whatever you want about the curling brush debate, but I'll say this: It's happening way too fast and you should question why that is."

Very true.

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10-15-15 06:42PM
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very well put. At least some , if not all, of the response of BP with the "crazy" fabric is to try and protect their marketshare and stop HL momentum. They did not submit these brooms to Curling Canada for approval as HL did. the broom heads specific teams were given by BP should be ruled illegal and tossed.

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10-15-15 06:43PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JustAnotherHack


They have a point. Should be interesting what happens next.

However, to be honest, I am a bit disgusted at how some elite curlers, specifically the Balance Plus sponsored ones, pulled this little stunt to try to smear Hardline. I expect better from competitive curlers, but apparently I was wrong.

Looks folks, if you had a problem with those brooms, why did you not say something last season? They've been around for 2+ seasons with the current fabric... and now suddenly they're a problem?

Please.

Now I know some of you are going to say that it took two years for teams to figure out how to modify their sweeping to better manipulate the rock. Well, if the problem is how teams are sweeping, change the rule back to having to sweep in front of the entire traveling surface of the rock at a 45-90 degree angle path to the rock. Don't allow for corner sweeping or any other modified sweeping motion. Wouldn't that address some of the issues?

One thing I know... I'm going to have to think long and hard before I'll ever buy a Balance Plus product (Goldline may be next on the list too, but they've kept their response a bit more subtle for now). This little show that they've put on with their sponsored teams leaves a very foul taste in my mouth. And it might just leave a foul taste in the mouths of a lot of club curlers if you force them to abandon equipment that they've shelled out a lot of money on.



Obviously they're going to defend themselves, as they should. Like I said their whole future could be at stake here.

I don't know if what they're alleging is true or not, but it certainly could be possible. Something does seem suspicious, that is for sure.

Hopefully one way or another the truth will come out.

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10-15-15 11:05PM
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Like many others I'm a bit skeptical of some of the claims. What exactly is "directional" fabric? I have both a conventional performance-style broom and an icepad broom. On both the fabric is symmetrical. The traditional heads have a basketweave pattern, the icepad has a diamond pattern. I've not been able to back up a stone 3 feet with either broom. Indeed at the club level the different brooms perform similarly except the ice pad fabric doesn't get as wet as most other fabrics.

Maybe teams have figured out how to severely corner sweep or snowplow with the new brooms but that's a different question. Corner sweeping used to be illegal but is very difficult to enforce even when there was a rule.

Before any performance claims can be taken seriously, those making charges need to name names and provide objective evidence. Anecdotes are not the same as evidence.

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10-15-15 11:05PM
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so what is this product hard line is referring to at the recent WCT event that ruined the ice?

no article has named it yet but they all talk about it.....

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10-16-15 12:04AM
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I'd like to see video o some of these magical shots but if what is claimed is remotely true it is a vindication of the microscratch theory of curl and manufacturers have figured out how to exploit it. Unfortunately, I predicted in an article I wrote for club members about a year ago that this theory could be used to design new sweeping technology.

The key piece of exploiting this phenomenon would be using a fabric material that puts approximately 50 micron deep scratches in the ice. According to the theory it is possible to induce predictable and persistent stone movement this way.

ALL fabrics will be able to do this, but some more efficiently than others. This will be the sticking point for rule making. But maybe the technical secret is out of the bag.

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10-16-15 12:04AM
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I'd like to see video o some of these magical shots but if what is claimed is remotely true it is a vindication of the microscratch theory of curl and manufacturers have figured out how to exploit it. Unfortunately, I predicted in an article I wrote for club members about a year ago that this theory could be used to design new sweeping technology.

The key piece of exploiting this phenomenon would be using a fabric material that puts approximately 50 micron deep scratches in the ice. According to the theory it is possible to induce predictable and persistent stone movement this way.

ALL fabrics will be able to do this, but some more efficiently than others. This will be the sticking point for rule making. But maybe the technical secret is out of the bag.

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10-16-15 12:20AM
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I agree that Wayne Middaugh should provide some evidence to back up his claim that these brushes can back a rock up four feet. I also find press comments attributed to Team Howard inferring negative criticism of teams using the Hardline brooms very disappointing.

Any team using the product is not breaking any rule since none exist and the CCA does not test, approve or ban any products. Therefore, making any allegations towards any curler using the product borders on slander.

And for the record, I use a hair brush. So I'm not a shill for anyone.

So let's cool your jets and dampen the hyperbole. Should equipment be tested and approved? Of course. All sports do it and have rules about what is and isn't acceptable. Time the CCA and WCF pulled on some big boy pants and got to work.

Meanwhile, I suggest a moratorium on all synthetic brushes and a return to either hair brushes or you can all learn to swing corn again -lol!

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10-16-15 05:07AM
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Nolan Thiessen wrote a follow-up blog:

http://www.teamcanadacurl.ca/blog/r...ogy-part-2-127/

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10-16-15 05:52AM
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I think we just sweeep with hair. Or CORN!

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10-16-15 08:13AM
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https://twitter.com/teammatchett/st...082478543052801
https://twitter.com/teammatchett/st...173523364683776

But put me in the boat of thinking what Balance Plus was doing as poor sportsmanship I won't be buying any of their products.

https://twitter.com/teamkennedy2016...981972645687296

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10-16-15 09:07AM
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Agreed, until we see some actual evidence that hardlines damage the ice anymore than norway or EQ heads, this seems like an obvious attempt by the tops teams/suppliers at bullying the new guy.

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10-16-15 09:29AM
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Agreed. This is a small market so the top guns will do anything to protect their share.

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10-16-15 01:11PM
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quote:
Originally posted by skeebop
so what is this product hard line is referring to at the recent WCT event that ruined the ice?

no article has named it yet but they all talk about it.....

I believe they are referring to the BalancePlus Black Pad.

I have to side with hardline here as well. I have used a HL broom since last year because I do think it provides an advantage. But I certainly don't think it is causing damage to the ice. I would argue their pad is less abrasive than even the EQ or Norway pad. Their man proprietary features I believe to be the waterproofing along with the firmness provided by the piece of plastic between fabric and foam.

This debate is Hardline's lively hood in the market. You better believe BP isn't upset about this in the least bit. A bit fishy.

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10-16-15 02:48PM
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So I had the chance to try one of those new Balance Plus EQ+ brooms yesterday (thanks to my local club's shop).

Now as a moment of full disclosure... I'm a Hardline guy these days (made the switch almost two seasons ago), but I used to use the original Balance Plus broom and EQ broom head before that. I really like the lighter Hardline Broom... and the fact if felt just as effective, if not more so, than the Balance Plus.

(And that it's so easy to clean the broom heads on the Hardline brooms, not to mention it being cheaper, helped sell me on it.)

Anyway, my first thought when I got my hands around the new BP EQ+ broom was... holy crap, is this a kids broom? It was so ridiculously light... I was a bit worried I might break it (I'm about 6'4" and 250 lbs so I'm no light weight). The EQ+ broom head had a distinctly different feel to it... run your hands across it, you'll notice it feels different from one direction to the next (something I didn't notice on my Hardline broom heads).

As far as effectiveness in sweeping... yep, it works really really well. I can see how you could cause a slight fall (or run the rock really straight), because we did that a few times in the game (especially if you corner sweep). A couple of strong sweepers and you'll get more fall, but until I see it for myself, I'm going to doubt you'll get 3-4 feet of fall like certain competitive curlers were saying.

I felt that you could drag the rock about the same distance as any other broom (Hardline / original EQ... felt about the same for me). What I couldn't do was make a rock slow down, but that may be because I couldn't figure out how to sweep to cause it to put on the breaks. If someone who uses this broom can explain that to me, please let me know.

(I wasn't trying to dump or scuff the ice at all... I tried to keep my sweeping as normal as possible.)

The broom head did get black fairly quick, so I get the nickname now. And it made a bit of weird noise when sweeping... not quite as loud as the Norway Pad, but definitely louder and "scratchier" (almost squeaky) than the Hardline or original EQ pad.

As for if it significantly damaged the ice surface... not sure. We did get a few more picks later in the game, and the ice did turn a bit fudgy in a couple of paths, but it didn't seem all that different than a lot of other late draw games I've played. If you had four guys with those brooms on the ice, you may notice it more.

I will say I liked how light the broom was. It flexed a bit under my weight, but it didn't feel like it was going to break. I could enjoy using a broom that was this light over the course of a spiel (which is one of my biggest positives about the Hardline broom).

In the hands of a couple of top end competitive sweepers, yeah, I think this broom could cause some interesting things to happen. It'll take a lot of skill though out of your sweepers to be able to manipulate the rock to even close to the extent being claimed...

I think the WCF/CCA will need to test it under some specific criteria to determine how much it damages the ice (I'm curious to know if they even had a chance to see this broom before it appeared in spiels the past weekend). And when you think about it, all synthetic brooms damage the ice surface to some degree... so how much is too much?

Anyway, just a few thoughts... let the debate continue.

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10-16-15 04:00PM
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Phil_D
Drawmaster

 

Registered: May 2014
Location: Joliet, IL
Posts: 629

New column from Don Landry, including video of the Balance Plus "Blackhead" pads in action:

https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/e...-174550399.html

This line from the article really stuck out to me:

"The Blackhead broom heads, which BalancePlus claims were crafted in order to prove a point about how far curling technology can go and were never going to get to market..."

So Balance Plus makes a broom head that they know will cause an uproar, just to "prove a point." In the aftermath, Hardline gets roped in with the new Balance Plus head. Coincidence?

I'm really trying to stay objective here, but it's getting harder and harder to do that. Something definitely doesn't smell right.

__________________
Recreational curler & resident armchair curler at Windy City Curling Club.

Co-host of the NerdCurl podcast & occasional blogger.

http://www.nerdcurl.com

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