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05-02-16 06:47PM
Marco2010 is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Marco2010 Click here to Send Marco2010 a Private Message Find more posts by Marco2010 Add Marco2010 to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
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5 blank ends in Champions Cup final

How does it make sense that a team with last rock advantage who doesn't score in the extra end gets to try again with last rock advantage in the second extra end? Keeping last rock when you blank an end is too big an advantage. I hope this game with 5 blank ends will encourage people to consider a blank end rule.

What about a compromise rule: you can blank an end and keep last rock advantage when you are behind in the score but not when the score is tied or if you are ahead.

have a good summer folks

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05-02-16 06:50PM
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Blank ends are part of the game, part of the strategy.

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05-02-16 07:33PM
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Re: 5 blank ends in Champions Cup final

quote:
Originally posted by Marco2010
How does it make sense that a team with last rock advantage who doesn't score in the extra end gets to try again with last rock advantage in the second extra end? Keeping last rock when you blank an end is too big an advantage. I hope this game with 5 blank ends will encourage people to consider a blank end rule.

What about a compromise rule: you can blank an end and keep last rock advantage when you are behind in the score but not when the score is tied or if you are ahead.

have a good summer folks



If you lose the hammer if you don't score, you are going to see a lot of one enders. A 5-4 game, with 7 one enders is more boring than blank ends. This topic has also been discussed multiple times in multiple threads. A big reason there are more blank ends, is teams are just better. Run backs and doubles are common place. Many of those blank ends had multiple rocks in play, even in the extra end, and some great shooting eliminated all the rocks. That's going to happen, and isn't a bad thing.

The compromise is a terrible idea. It's the equivalent of Mario Kart, where whoever is in last gets to catch up until they are in first. You shouldn't be rewarded for being behind.

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05-02-16 07:44PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
Blank ends are part of the game, part of the strategy.


Not really. Not that long ago ice wasn't really good, the rocks weren't matched and straw brooms left a lot of debris on the ice. There were a lot of stones in play and scores were higher. Blanks were rare. Better playing conditions have changed strategy. If that wasn't the case, why do we have 3, 4 and 5 rock rules.

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05-02-16 07:50PM
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Re: Re: 5 blank ends in Champions Cup final

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Squiggsy
[B]

If you lose the hammer if you don't score, you are going to see a lot of one enders. A 5-4 game, with 7 one enders is more boring than blank ends. .

Not really. The 3, 4 and 5 rock rules ensure corner guards so multiple points per end are probable for the team with last rock advantage. You can't tick away a corner guard.

Blanks are ok if you are behind in the score but are unfair if you are tied or leading. The Champions Cup final demonstrates this.

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05-02-16 08:10PM
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this is one of those things that was discussed to death here this year. like i said before i think it is wasteful to blank half a game away just because you dont want to take one.

there have been a fair number of times where teams have blanked 3 or 4 ends in a row and still only gotten one and then ended up losing. you have to wonder if those teams that wasted 4 ends blanking regret it after a loss.

blanking to maintain hammer in even ends is a valid and smart strategy but blanking half a game away because you dont want to be forced is being stubborn and its boring.and quite frankly it can really come back to bite you in the ass.

however its so damn easy to get rid of rocks now that this is what teams decide to do a lot early on. its just so easy now, the rocks are so lively. the sport is now really in a place where there are going to be some people that arent comfortable with it.i am one of those people.

Last edited by misty1 on 05-02-16 at 08:15PM

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05-02-16 08:20PM
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You can hardly put that EE blank into this category of discussion. It was a badly missed shot that nearly cost him the win.

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05-02-16 09:16PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ajay
You can hardly put that EE blank into this category of discussion. It was a badly missed shot that nearly cost him the win.


it was a badly missed shot... no problem try again. The only sport where you can miss and try again.

Miss a field goal... try again. Don't score on a break away... try again. Miss an easy basquet... try again. Stay at bat until you get a hit.

The only sport where a team (without last rock) wants you to score 1.

Last edited by Marco2010 on 05-02-16 at 09:19PM

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05-02-16 09:23PM
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Re: Blank it..

quote:
Originally posted by HotRocks
If a curler is smart and skilled enough to blank an end..
then they deserve to keep the hammer..

If the losing team cant force.. then blank it is..



There wasn't anything smart or skilled on the 9th end. It was a bad miss BUT try again, no problem.

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05-02-16 09:35PM
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Guess you never saw the Ryan Express play before the free guard zone.

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05-02-16 10:06PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
Guess you never saw the Ryan Express play before the free guard zone.


I played against the Ryan Express at the 1988 Brier. They were a great team, the best in the country but it was boring and fans booed them. That is when I started promoting a blank end rule.

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05-03-16 12:49AM
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I didn't see a problem in the final though. Even the blank ends were generally well played ends that required some decent shot making to be able to generate the blank to save hammer.

(9th end aside... but really, it's a quirk of the game that a half a shot is still acceptable at times. Blanking wasn't the plan, but it was still an acceptable outcome. Are you going to punish the guy more for a miss? Give the other team another chance to steal... I'm sure Reid really wanted to do that.)

Making the sport more complicated to make it more exciting isn't always the right answer either. 5 guard zone rule is a simple change from previous rules, maybe the idea of the rule from the mixed doubles could be an option (rocks cannot be hit out play at all until after the 5th stone). If you have a change in mind, try to keep it simple.

But it seems like you're just unhappy with the rules of curling and it's quirks. If that's the case... why watch or be involved?

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05-03-16 01:40AM
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Re: Re: 5 blank ends in Champions Cup final

quote:
Originally posted by Squiggsy

A big reason there are more blank ends, is teams are just better.


Actually, I've seen more blank ends at the elite level this season than in any season in recent history. To me, the main reason is obvious: the new sweeping techniques combined with the new brush pad materials. This allows shots to bend around guards - even tight guards - like never before.
This, and what seems to be an efficiency increase with run backs, doubles, etc. (which is also owing, in part, to the new sweeping), has resulted in the increase in blank ends this season.

With regards to the Carruthers miss in the first extra end - and in particular to that yellow rock of theirs off to the side that was almost biting... I don't remember who threw the rock which resulted in the rock that ended up just outside the House on the side, but I do remember very distinctly thinking that they (Carruthers' team) made a mistake by not sweeping that rock into the House. No attempt was made to sweep it in. I think Moskowy was the closest person to the rock, and he literally just watched it roll and die, not attempting even one brush stroke.
As it happened, I remember thinking how dumb that was to not try to get it to bite, because you can never have too many biters (obviously, they were not looking to blank the extra end with the Hammer). And voila - not sweeping that rock into the House did very nearly cost them the game. Had they swept it in, they'd have won in the first extra end.

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05-03-16 01:23PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
Guess you never saw the Ryan Express play before the free guard zone.


quote:
Originally posted by Marco2010


I played against the Ryan Express at the 1988 Brier. They were a great team, the best in the country but it was boring and fans booed them. That is when I started promoting a blank end rule.



Best comeback ever! #forthewin

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05-03-16 09:54PM
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so losing the hammer if you blank an end will become the new force. If I'm the team without hammer I'm going to try hard to make sure there are no rocks in play after I throw my last rock of the end. Now the team with last rock has the option of taking a single or throwing it away and losing the last stone. Next end the same thing happens but the other way around...and so on and so on.

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05-03-16 10:12PM
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quote:
[i]

But it seems like you're just unhappy with the rules of curling and it's quirks. If that's the case... why watch or be involved? [/B]


Be careful what you ask for. If this trend to more and more blank ends continues, then more and more curling fans will no longer watch. And when fans stop watching TV will notice and then everybody will have no choice but to watch less.

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05-04-16 12:12PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dbsdbs


Be careful what you ask for. If this trend to more and more blank ends continues, then more and more curling fans will no longer watch. And when fans stop watching TV will notice and then everybody will have no choice but to watch less.



I don't know... you might be right, but if it's a well played blank end with a runback or three, that's not necessarily a bad thing either.

But any changes to the rules, beyond what we've already tested, should be tabled for the moment. The upcoming changes to sweeping will probably drop the shot percentages as a start, as sweeping effectiveness will be reduced. Going to a five-rock guard rule for all competitive events will likely generate more offense, especially in combination with the changes to sweeping.

Lets work with those changes first, and then see what's next. I get the idea of discouraging blank ends (and maybe a team blanking should lose the hammer... might encourage teams to go harder for their deuce) but let's not start adding a whole pile of fairly radical changes at once in an attempt to "liven up" the game.

Even though I'd like to see the Slams test a rule regarding losing the hammer if you blank and see how teams adjust.

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05-04-16 01:21PM
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Want to decrease the number of blank ends..., don't make the rocks so lively. Guarantee that in 90% of the curling clubs out there, these run back doubles, triples and quads would never happen even with the elites throwing the rocks.

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05-04-16 01:31PM
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Lively rocks allow exciting multiple take-outs that are good for TV, but lead to blanks that are bad for TV. So who knows.

Anyway, losing hammer after a blank will not help all that much. All it will do is move the bailout shots to the team without hammer, who will try to "blank" the end with their last shot, forcing the other team to take 1.

No matter how many threads in however many forums OP posts this idea, over and over again, it will not change it from a bad idea to a good one.

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05-04-16 02:17PM
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Blank ends and wide open ends have been increasing for the past few years, and it was becoming apparent that something had to be done to change this -- hence new ideas like testing the 5-rock FGZ. I travelled from USA to watch 3 Olympic trials and planned to do that again in 2017 but the increase in blanks led to reconsider this plan even before this season. The focus on sweeping rules is important but I hope it does not divert attention from the blank end trend that predates the sweeping issues.

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05-04-16 02:40PM
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Since there seems to be a bit of confusion... I'll restate what I implied in my previous post.

I'm saying changing rules are fine, but don't change everything at once. See what the changes to the sweeping rules result in. Add in the 5-rock FGZ rule on top of that. See if that increases the amount of rocks in play and/or reduces the number of blanks.

If that doesn't increase the number of rocks in play, then look at additional changes, including lose of hammer on a blank end, or banning the tick shot. But changing rules willy-nilly without actually testing them is a bad idea that isn't going to solve a perceived issue. Be methodical about the changes and test them properly.

The changing to sweeping will probably make more of a difference that you might think, but only time will tell.

And shoot, I'm sorry, but the blank end you've seen this season are no where near as boring as they were back prior to the FGZ rule. Blanking an end these days still requires a fair amount of shot making skills. If you're bored by blank ends, even when teams are making multiple great shots, I'm not sure what rules we could change to make it more interesting for you. Maybe allow body checking in the house?

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05-04-16 02:45PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dbsdbs
Blank ends and wide open ends have been increasing for the past few years, and it was becoming apparent that something had to be done to change this -- hence new ideas like testing the 5-rock FGZ. I travelled from USA to watch 3 Olympic trials and planned to do that again in 2017 but the increase in blanks led to reconsider this plan even before this season. The focus on sweeping rules is important but I hope it does not divert attention from the blank end trend that predates the sweeping issues.


I wouldn't go to an event to (just) watch the curling. I'd go to be part of the event... the parties, meeting old and new friends, mingling with the teams, the environment and so forth.

It's like going to any sporting event... you go for the live experience, and the game is only a part of it.

If blank ends turn you off so much that you're not interested in going... I'd think you're missing out on the best part of a national event, the off-ice stuff. But to each his own.

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05-04-16 03:53PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JustAnotherHack


I wouldn't go to an event to (just) watch the curling. I'd go to be part of the event... the parties, meeting old and new friends, mingling with the teams, the environment and so forth.

It's like going to any sporting event... you go for the live experience, and the game is only a part of it.

If blank ends turn you off so much that you're not interested in going... I'd think you're missing out on the best part of a national event, the off-ice stuff. But to each his own.



id agree. certainly you go to an event for more than just the games. however the games are the primary reason you go and if thats not the reason you end up staying there then there's a problem

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05-04-16 06:04PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JustAnotherHack
Since there seems to be a bit of confusion... I'll restate what I implied in my previous post.

I'm saying changing rules are fine, but don't change everything at once. See what the changes to the sweeping rules result in. Add in the 5-rock FGZ rule on top of that. See if that increases the amount of rocks in play and/or reduces the number of blanks.

If that doesn't increase the number of rocks in play, then look at additional changes, including lose of hammer on a blank end, or banning the tick shot. But changing rules willy-nilly without actually testing them is a bad idea that isn't going to solve a perceived issue. Be methodical about the changes and test them properly.

The changing to sweeping will probably make more of a difference that you might think, but only time will tell.

And shoot, I'm sorry, but the blank end you've seen this season are no where near as boring as they were back prior to the FGZ rule. Blanking an end these days still requires a fair amount of shot making skills. If you're bored by blank ends, even when teams are making multiple great shots, I'm not sure what rules we could change to make it more interesting for you. Maybe allow body checking in the house?



Well said! Would be boring to watch someone draw an empty house for one point.

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05-04-16 06:09PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ngm
Lively rocks allow exciting multiple take-outs that are good for TV, but lead to blanks that are bad for TV. So who knows.

Anyway, losing hammer after a blank will not help all that much. All it will do is move the bailout shots to the team without hammer, who will try to "blank" the end with their last shot, forcing the other team to take 1.

No matter how many threads in however many forums OP posts this idea, over and over again, it will not change it from a bad idea to a good one.



With a 4 or 5 rock rule, the team with last rock will have 2 corner guards to attack with since you can't effectively tick away a corner guard. Knowing that your opponent can't blank you to death if you fall behind will encourage teams with last rock to attack on a regular basis and not bail out the minute things aren't going 100% their way.

A total ban on blank ends might not be the way to go but only offering a team behind in the score the option of blanking might be something worth trying out on the WCT.

I think a limited blank end rule would help balance out the winning percentages of teams. Why is it that top teams like McEwen win 88% of their games when they have last rock advantage on the first end but only 56% when they don't have last rock on the first end? (Gerry's numbers, pre-Brier). At the very least it would eliminate the frequent blank of the 1st end.

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M: USA Curling Junior National Championships
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Draw: M6 -- Thu, Mar 28 -- 12:00pm CT
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M: Canadian Mixed Doubles Curling Championship
Fredericton, NB
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: CF -- Fri, Mar 22 -- 1:00pm AT
Lott/Lott Final
Walk/Muyr (8) Watch Live Curling!
M: Swiss Junior Championships
Thun, SUI
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: CF2 -- Sun, Mar 24 -- 3:00am ET
Caccivio Final
Brauchli 12  (EE)
Dryburgh Final
Ringgenberg (9)
W: Swiss Junior Championships
Thun, SUI
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: CF2 -- Sun, Mar 24 -- 9:00am CET
Schwaller Final
Oberson (9)
Blackham Final
von Arx (9)
W: NWTCA Curling Club Championships
Fort Smith, NT
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: 3 -- Sat, Mar 23 -- 11:00am MT
Stroeder Final
Delorey (7)
M: NWTCA Curling Club Championships
Fort Smith, NT
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: 3 -- Sat, Mar 23 -- 1:00pm ET
Delorey Final
Lockhart (EE)
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Homan Brings Home Gold

Homan Brings Home Gold

Sydney, Canada - In front of a full house with over 4,000 spectators, Canada (photo: Stephen Fisher, World Curling) beat Switzerland by 7-5 to take gold at the BKT Tires World Women's Curling Championship 2024.

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