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02-18-18 09:54AM
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dugless_zone 13
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The handles are not infallible. A few years ago in the Canadian Junior Championships a player was called twice for a hogline violation when the replay clearly showed that she was no where near the hogline. It was quite costly to the team. We also saw it happen in the Brier (in Calgary I believe) when a player in a game against Kevin Koe was called for an infraction that was clearly wrong. Koe overruled the call and let the player rethrow the shot. That is a situation where if a replay was available it should be allowed to be used to make a determination. As for the double touch if it is part of the normal release it is.fine.

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02-18-18 09:59AM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Dec 2013
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Re: New controversy: hog line violation in GBR vs SWE

quote:
Originally posted by Observer


Anna Sloan asked her teammates "was it a double touch?" And I heard Vicki Adams answer that that's supposed to be allowed now (maybe it didn't used to be?). I don't know the rules well enough to know if that's true or not. Anyone here know?



According to the WCF rules, rule R8(a)(i), a double touch before the hog-line by the delivering player is allowed. A second touch past the hog line would not be allowed.

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02-18-18 10:12AM
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The rock was clearly released before the hogline, terrible call.

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02-18-18 10:27AM
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Coaching Question?

Do the coaches (and team staff for that matter) have access to team audio when the teams are miked for TV? (either CBC or other broadcasters)

If so can the coaches (and staff) tap into an alternative feed via technology available on the bench?

I think it would be of great assistance to coaches (particularly ones coaching for the 1st time like Renee) to hear the thinking process of their players. Obviously both teams would have access to the feed. Only problem on a CBC broadcast is whether non-English speaking teams would be at a clear disadvantage.

Perhaps the feed should only be available specifically to each team staff and the players. Thus Canada couldn't listen in on their opponents chatter and vice-versa.

btw - I'm not advocating a line of communication between the coach and their skip - just the ability to monitor chatter (aka decision-making)

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02-18-18 10:40AM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:
Originally posted by On The Nose

As so eloquently explained by Ajay in his post, Homan didn't so much follow the rule as take advantage of it for her own selfish gain.
The rule is there to allow for the non-offending team to choose fairness and sportsmanship above a penalty which is too severe for the infraction - not for the non-offending team to impose a penalty which is completely out of proportion with the infraction. Sadly - and embarrassingly to Canadians - Homan chose the latter.

Even more important than any rule - no matter how well or how poorly written the rule is - is integrity. And common sense.
Any honest person with even a small degree of common sense could see that the rock which was touched by the broom was not affected. The rock which was touched was barely moving when it was touched. Neither its trajectory nor its speed was affected. This was incredibly obvious. The touch had no consequence on the outcome of the shot. Therefore, the only fair and proper thing to do, based on honesty and common sense and fair play, is to leave the rock where it is. Removing the rock in this circumstance is taking an unfair advantage - it is the equivalent of cheating.

To people of your ilk, two (or more) wrongs make a 'right', and the ends justify the means... Doing anything to win is your motto. Not anything fair or just - simply anything at all to win.

To more decent people with higher standards, losing honestly and fairly is a far greater achievement than is winning dishonestly and unfairly.

I've always been a fan of Homan's intensity... and I'd love to cheer for the Canadian women's curling team. But after the other day, my conscience simply will no longer allow me to.



While Ajay’s post was eloquent, it was not an accurate reflection of the history or evolution of the rule. For many, many years the rule was very simple - if a moving stone was touched by a player of the team that threw it, or any of their equipment (including cigarette packages or lighters falling from their pocket) the stone was considered “burned” and was to be removed immediately. The sportsmanship was to be exhibited by a player calling his own infraction without considering whether the infraction would have caused any difference in the outcome of the shot being attempted or whether the other team noticed, and in being willing to accept the penalty.

Somewhere along the way, the powers that be decided that the rule might be taken advantage of if a stone had been thrown poorly and the attempted shot was not going to be made (and maybe even cause a bad outcome for the delivering team) then a player could accidentally on purpose burn the stone and remove the rock. In order to prevent this, the rule was changed to allow the stone to continue its course if it was touched inside the hogline and then the non-offending team could decide the appropriate penalty.

It seems that, somehow, it has now been decided that it is inconvenient for a team that causes an infraction of the rules to be expected to suffer a penalty for the infraction, and that the non-offending team is being “unsportsmanlike” if they decide to apply a penalty to the team that has broken the rule. Remember, the rule says that a moving stone should not be touched - it does not say that a moving stone should not be caused to have a change in trajectory or speed. If a stone in motion is touched, a rule has been broken and a penalty should be administered. The offending team should exhibit good sportsmanship by calling attention to the infraction and by willingly submitting to the penalty imposed.

Last edited by toeslider on 02-18-18 at 10:50AM

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02-18-18 11:01AM
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The rule also gives three options, from the touch of the stone had no effect on the outcome and thus you can leave it as it is, to the touch might have barely effected the outcome and I ( as the non offending team) think that had it not occurred the rocks would have ended up in these positions, so I will put the rocks in those locations and continue, to finally the touch had such a detrimental effect on the outcome of the shot that it should be removed. Over the years officiating I have been called out for such infractions numerous times and when given the options almost every situation ended with the proper decision being made.

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02-18-18 11:18AM
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Toe slider quote:
For many, many years the rule was very simple - if a moving stone was touched by a player of the team that threw it, or any of their equipment (including cigarette packages or lighters falling from their pocket) the stone was considered “burned” and was to be removed immediately

While the rule existed back then, was it routinely exercised or were infractions resolved by mutual agreement of projected outcome?
I have long been of the opinion that the "gentleman" rules were established long before today's game that now has substantial perks in terms of money, gov't funding, travel etc. This creates a whole different "game" dynamic and has/will spawn a selfish "win at all cost" dynamic.
Of all the articles read and media heard, it seems the vast majority do not agree with
Rachel, and the few that did were Canadian curling colleagues that happened to get caught by a media mic. In order that future teams could not be subjected to such severe penalty for a very insignificant infraction, they perhaps need to go to "video review" for these major contests with big stakes. Camera coverage is excellent and a central review is routine in today's sports world.

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02-18-18 11:31AM
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quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
The rock was clearly released before the hogline, terrible call.


The replay indicates that MH's hand was not on the rock BEFORE the rock reached the hog line.

That proves absolutely nothing.

No doubt in my mind if we were shown a picture of the rock the instant it touched the line, little Eve's hand would be on the handle.

Anybody who has watched her will be aware she developed this habit of a "double touch' many years ago. Not surprisingly, Sloan's first question asks, 'Was it a double touch?' Of course it was! And this time it was costly because it's 99.99% certain she touched the stone for the second time the instant the rock touched the line.

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02-18-18 11:34AM
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Mike Babcock - Toronto Maple Leaf Coach calls the Homan Team. hmmm, not following Hockey - How is his team doing?


article:

https://olympics.cbc.ca/news/articl...homan-team.html

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02-18-18 12:09PM
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Wish I knew how to add an image. On Muirheads twitter there are clear pictures the rock had been released before the hogline.

Last edited by dugless_zone 13 on 02-18-18 at 12:11PM

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02-18-18 12:32PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
Wish I knew how to add an image. On Muirheads twitter there are clear pictures the rock had been released before the hogline.


hope this works:

https://twitter.com/evemuirhead?lang=en

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02-18-18 12:38PM
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it does, thanks

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02-18-18 01:25PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CURLER1


hope this works:

https://twitter.com/evemuirhead?lang=en



Wow. I'm kind of surprised that Eve has put that up on her own Twitter. I wonder if that genuinely is her posting or if she has someone who runs her account.

Very disingenuous to use that still picture when the actual issue is what happened about 1/2 second afterwards where her hand went back to the handle.

The BBC comments section is now full of very mis-informed Brits crying foul and using that picture as 'evidence' that they were cheated and that the IOC hates GBR etc etc.

Actually, my favourite is someone claiming there could have been someone in the crowd who somehow made the red lights come on remotely.

Last edited by RaiseDoubleFTW on 02-18-18 at 01:28PM

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02-18-18 02:08PM
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Here’s the video https://youtu.be/_w0vfc18PfI

Looks to me that she’s released it and the handle has started rotating away from her hand by the time it crosses the hog line.

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02-18-18 02:18PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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quote:
Originally posted by Observer
Here’s the video https://youtu.be/_w0vfc18PfI

Looks to me that she’s released it and the handle has started rotating away from her hand by the time it crosses the hog line.



Good video. I hadn't seen one slowed down as much as that. Handle definitely seems clear as her hand makes the secondary move upwards.

Does anyone who knows a bit more about the tech know whether touching the top of the stone (e.g. the colour, not the handle itself) also sets off the sensor? From that vid that seems to be the only way it could have been triggered by Eve.

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02-18-18 02:27PM
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I don’t know the answer to that question, but I do have another observation. I’ve been watching as much of this Olympic Curling as I can, since the start of the mixed doubles, and I’ve lost count of the number of times the players have had to stop and get someone retighten a stone because the handle was loose. Most memorably it happened to Kaitlyn Lawes late in the gold medal match. It doesn’t speak well of the maintenance of the stones in a general sense.

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02-18-18 02:40PM
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Here is a link to the entire game https://olympics.cbc.ca/video/today...-women-gbr-swe/
You can use the slider to fast fwd to 11th end and see the discussion with official etc, If you watch Eve's shots in the 8, 9 and 10th end she comes close to double clutching and she also puts her finger on face of the rock.

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02-18-18 02:43PM
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You would think as part of the morning ritual the ice crew would not only tighten all the handles but for the sake of 32 batteries a day change to a new battery every day for each handle. How many times have they changed the the so called malfunctioning handle because of faulty batteries. Far too many when what's at stake vs 2 bucks a battery.
Put an Energizer bunny sticker on the handle and have Energizer sponsor the batterires....solved.

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02-18-18 02:44PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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quote:
Originally posted by decade
Here is a link to the entire game https://olympics.cbc.ca/video/today...-women-gbr-swe/
You can use the slider to fast fwd to 11th end and see the discussion with official etc, If you watch Eve's shots in the 8, 9 and 10th end she comes close to double clutching and she also puts her finger on face of the rock.



Yeah. It looks like this is definitely a common part of her delivery. I don't know if everyone gets the same 'next' video from YouTube, but for me the one YouTube gave me was this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7d_FjpClIY - from 2010 Olympics and she clearly does a similar sort of second move to the rock.

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02-18-18 03:53PM
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I don't think touching the actual stone triggers it. Your bare skin has to be in contact with the coated handle. Koe does a similar thing on his release.

Last edited by dugless_zone 13 on 02-18-18 at 03:58PM

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02-18-18 03:55PM
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What about the players that throw with their gloves on? It must be just touch sensors.

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02-18-18 04:04PM
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I think she released it cleanly. Hard to fathom why light didn't work. On the other hand Sweden still had a fairly easy shot even if Eve's rock left it play. Must have been distracting for Anna H.

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02-18-18 04:31PM
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quote:
Originally posted by IN-OFF-FOR-2
What about the players that throw with their gloves on? It must be just touch sensors.

You are not allowed to throw with a glove

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02-18-18 04:33PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Mar 2016
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Regarding Team Holman hogged rock against Denmark, I am surprised nobody mentioned these incidents. Denmark would not have been at the Olympics if they had not been called. Quote is from worldcurling.org website.

Denmark became the final women’s team to qualify for the PyeongChang 2018 Olympic Winter Games when they beat Italy by 5-4 in the extra end of the last women’s qualification game at the Olympic Qualification Event 2017 taking place in Pilsen, Czech Republic.

This was an extraordinary game with Italian stones being taken off in two ends because they had been accidentally touched by their sweepers when in play.

Italy held a 2-1 lead as the teams played the seventh end, and their skip Diana Gaspari had looked to extend that lead by two more points in this end. She drew her last stone into the house thinking she had scored the two points, only to have one of her stones removed because it had been touched. Italy scored just one point taking the score to 3-1.

A similar incident happened in the next end and this time, the last Italian stone of the end was discounted and a Danish stone replaced, allowing Denmark’s skip Madeleine Dupont to draw for two points and level the game at 3-3.

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02-18-18 05:08PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Observer
Here’s the video https://youtu.be/_w0vfc18PfI

Looks to me that she’s released it and the handle has started rotating away from her hand by the time it crosses the hog line.



EYE ON THE HOG

After reviewing the video, it appears to me that M'H did remove her hand from the handle of the rock before the rock reached the hog line.

BUT, it also appears that at the very last fraction of a second, ( I believe the game time was 2:57:38) she reached out and touched the rock with her index finger - just as the rock reached the line - thereby causing the violation.

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