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M: USA Curling Junior National Championships
Eau Claire, WI
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Draw: M7 -- Thu, Mar 28 -- 8:00pm CT
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W: USA Curling Junior National Championships
Eau Claire, WI
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Draw: W6 -- Thu, Mar 28 -- 4:00pm CT
Berg Final
Scheel (10) Watch Live Curling!
Berg Final
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M: Canadian Mixed Doubles Curling Championship
Fredericton, NB
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Draw: CF -- Fri, Mar 22 -- 1:00pm AT
Lott/Lott Final
Walk/Muyr (8) Watch Live Curling!
M: Swiss Junior Championships
Thun, SUI
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Draw: CF2 -- Sun, Mar 24 -- 3:00am ET
Caccivio Final
Brauchli 12  (EE)
Dryburgh Final
Ringgenberg (9)
W: Swiss Junior Championships
Thun, SUI
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Draw: CF2 -- Sun, Mar 24 -- 9:00am CET
Schwaller Final
Oberson (9)
Blackham Final
von Arx (9)
W: NWTCA Curling Club Championships
Fort Smith, NT
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: 3 -- Sat, Mar 23 -- 11:00am MT
Stroeder Final
Delorey (7)
M: NWTCA Curling Club Championships
Fort Smith, NT
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: 3 -- Sat, Mar 23 -- 1:00pm ET
Delorey Final
Lockhart (EE)
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03-17-15 06:54PM
minimalist is offline Click Here to See the Profile for minimalist Find more posts by minimalist Add minimalist to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
minimalist
Knee-Slider

 

Registered: Mar 2015
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Unfair curling rule

I am a casual curling fan.

I could not believe my eyes when watching Canada/USA women's round robin match in the 2015 World Championships and found that the following is apparently a curling rule:

Unfair rule:
At the finish of the end, if two opposing color stones are deemed tied for 2nd(or presumably higher) stone, the end is blanked.

Fairer rule:
At the finish of the end, if two opposing color stones are deemed tied for 2nd or higher stone, the team scoring in the end is given the option to score the 'sure' number of stones or to blank the end.

It's relatively clear the players think this rule is unfair since in the 10th end of the Switzerland/Denmark game, Denmark didn't challenge when the unfair rule above could have applied[score tied 7-7, Swiss have the sure scoring stone and the second stones are one each color and visually looking pretty much tied].

How can this unfair rule be justified?

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03-17-15 07:05PM
AlanMacNeill is offline Click Here to See the Profile for AlanMacNeill Click here to Send AlanMacNeill a Private Message Find more posts by AlanMacNeill Add AlanMacNeill to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
AlanMacNeill
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The rule *is* that if the tie is for 2nd or higher that the stones are considered equal and the team that scored gets the smaller score.

R11.f (page 17 of the Rules of Curling available at http://www.worldcurling.org/rules-and-regulations)

Not sure what you saw, but if they called it a blank...either they made an error, or the tie was for shot stone, not 2nd.

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03-17-15 07:07PM
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Gerry
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I think you misunderstood the application of the rule. If stones are tied for the single point, then the end is blanked.

If the stones are tied for what would be 2nd point for one of the teams, only the single point would count.

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03-17-15 07:28PM
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minimalist
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Yeah, I see I had a brain fart. As I said, casual fan, so I was working and watching at the same time. They were tied for 1st stone in the 5th end.

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03-17-15 07:47PM
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minimalist
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I am relieved that the unfair rule was only in my head.

But actually, the "fairer rule" in the first post still seems fairer than Rule R11.f.

And an even fairer rule (at the cost of more complication) would add to the "fairer rule" that if the scoring team decides to blank the end, then the nonscoring team can choose to give the scoring team the extra stone.

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03-17-15 07:57PM
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mcgregorm89
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Registered: Apr 2014
Location: Kingston, ON
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Re: Unfair curling rule

quote:
Originally posted by minimalist
I am a casual curling fan.

I could not believe my eyes when watching Canada/USA women's round robin match in the 2015 World Championships and found that the following is apparently a curling rule:

Unfair rule:
At the finish of the end, if two opposing color stones are deemed tied for 2nd(or presumably higher) stone, the end is blanked.

Fairer rule:
At the finish of the end, if two opposing color stones are deemed tied for 2nd or higher stone, the team scoring in the end is given the option to score the 'sure' number of stones or to blank the end.

It's relatively clear the players think this rule is unfair since in the 10th end of the Switzerland/Denmark game, Denmark didn't challenge when the unfair rule above could have applied[score tied 7-7, Swiss have the sure scoring stone and the second stones are one each color and visually looking pretty much tied].

How can this unfair rule be justified?



First off this is an extremely rare occurrence in curling but can happen as we did see. But the end isn't necessarily a blank, the stones in question are ruled out but any other stones can count if they are in play. At least this is what was explained to me when being taught how to measure.

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03-18-15 07:53AM
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AlanMacNeill
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Registered: Sep 2011
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quote:
Originally posted by minimalist
I am relieved that the unfair rule was only in my head.

But actually, the "fairer rule" in the first post still seems fairer than Rule R11.f.

And an even fairer rule (at the cost of more complication) would add to the "fairer rule" that if the scoring team decides to blank the end, then the nonscoring team can choose to give the scoring team the extra stone.



so you know, the device they use to do measurements is accurate to a millimeter or finer, so "ties" are uncommon (assuming competent and skilled officials, which *should* be a safe assumption, given the amount of training officials doing measurements at National and International levels get), you just casually happened across one...I'm trying to think if this is the first one in years...and I think so...I don't recall others on this level of play.

and if you think about the spirit of the scoring rule "The team with the closest stone gets one point for each of their stones closer than the other team's closest stone"...then you understand why a tied stone results in a no score...it isn't *closer*, it's *just as close*...so if it's a tie for shot stone, no one got it. If it's a tie for a 2nd, 3rd, or 8th point, you didn't get your stone closer, you got it just as close...no point for you.

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03-18-15 08:59AM
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deadhead
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Kind of like baseball---a tie goes to the runner because the ball has to be there before the runner,not at the same time. Rock that is closest scores, in a tie no rock is closer.

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03-18-15 09:31AM
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Netz
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Registered: Oct 2002
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quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill


(assuming competent and skilled officials, which *should* be a safe assumption, given the amount of training officials doing measurements at National and International levels get),



You mean like the official who started to measure the back of the rock in the Jones/Switzerland game today and was immediately shunted out of the house.

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03-18-15 10:02AM
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AlanMacNeill
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hence the *should* disclaimer...

People do make mistakes, and sometimes things happen...particularly if they are relying on local volunteers to do the officiating rather than bringing in the "regulars" from CCA...err...curling Canada or even the USCA.

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03-18-15 03:54PM
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Jimbobogie
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Registered: Feb 2014
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Like baseball "Tie goes to the runner", in curling "Tie goes to the defense".

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03-18-15 04:12PM
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mgulseth
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Apr 2009
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Posts: 22

quote:
Originally posted by deadhead
Kind of like baseball---a tie goes to the runner because the ball has to be there before the runner,not at the same time. Rock that is closest scores, in a tie no rock is closer.


I get what you are saying, but I have to correct you on the baseball rule...despite what you have heard, there is no such rule in baseball that says the "tie goes to the runner". In baseball, something always happens first.

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03-18-15 05:10PM
Prawnpuller is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Prawnpuller Click here to Send Prawnpuller a Private Message Find more posts by Prawnpuller Add Prawnpuller to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Prawnpuller
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 97

On another thread on CZECH it shows the frozen measurements of both rocks. The red stone was clearly a speck of dust closer so in a 5 - 1 game which likely wouldnt alter the outcome either way why was the official not more decisive and push off the.yellow rock. If he was not sure There should be more officials available at a event of that stature ( perhaps a HEAD official ).to help so that the two of them could make this decision.??????






Two Things Can Happen.........One is Bad

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Curling Scores

M: USA Curling Junior National Championships
Eau Claire, WI
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: M7 -- Thu, Mar 28 -- 8:00pm CT
Lannoye 4th
Hebert  Watch Live Curling!
Fitzgerald 3rd
Cenzalli  Watch Live Curling!
Brenden 4th
Church  Watch Live Curling!
Guentzel 4th
Rose  Watch Live Curling!
W: USA Curling Junior National Championships
Eau Claire, WI
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: W6 -- Thu, Mar 28 -- 4:00pm CT
Berg Final
Scheel (10) Watch Live Curling!
Berg Final
Schapman (10) Watch Live Curling!
Giroux 10  Final
Pekowitz (9) Watch Live Curling!
Viau Final
Johnson (10) Watch Live Curling!
M: Canadian Mixed Doubles Curling Championship
Fredericton, NB
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: CF -- Fri, Mar 22 -- 1:00pm AT
Lott/Lott Final
Walk/Muyr (8) Watch Live Curling!
M: Swiss Junior Championships
Thun, SUI
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: CF2 -- Sun, Mar 24 -- 3:00am ET
Caccivio Final
Brauchli 12  (EE)
Dryburgh Final
Ringgenberg (9)
W: Swiss Junior Championships
Thun, SUI
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: CF2 -- Sun, Mar 24 -- 9:00am CET
Schwaller Final
Oberson (9)
Blackham Final
von Arx (9)
W: NWTCA Curling Club Championships
Fort Smith, NT
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: 3 -- Sat, Mar 23 -- 11:00am MT
Stroeder Final
Delorey (7)
M: NWTCA Curling Club Championships
Fort Smith, NT
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: 3 -- Sat, Mar 23 -- 1:00pm ET
Delorey Final
Lockhart (EE)
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