Registered: Dec 2013
Location:
Posts: 13

What is everybody's opinions on Brad Gushue's teams new sweeping method? Only using one sweeper when the calling for line, and using both sweepers when calling for weight?

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Registered: Feb 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 407

In my opinion, if they knew what they were doing, they would be one of the top teams in the world. You would see them on TV sometimes. They would win money on tour. And so on ...

In other words: I was never such a strong sweeper that I didn't feel I needed any help. But who am I to criticize? If it works for them, then it works. They wouldn't do it if they thought it was stupid.

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Registered: Sep 2002
Location: US - CT
Posts: 1431

Umm..finals of the first Grand Slam. So, they must be doing something wrong.

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Registered: Aug 2014
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Posts: 106

@Par

In your opinion ''if they knew what they were doing, they would be one of the best team in the world.''

I guess that ranking #3 on the WCT Order of Merit is not good enough for you?

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Registered: Sep 2015
Location: Toronto
Posts: 57

With proven superiority of downstroke, wonder if the Goo will be first to try 2 sweepers same side? Early days but perhaps next evolution in sweeping, esp for hits.Athletes are certainly good enough to do it. The Gushue trial makes sense as 80% of sweep efficiency is from closest broom. Interesting to see how long they continue to use it. They are not doing it on a whim I'm sure.

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shaqdaddy

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Registered: Sep 2011
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Posts: 6002

i dont know.. to me it didnt seem to make any kind of difference at all in their shots.

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Registered: Oct 2012
Location:
Posts: 119

The great thing about sweeping is nothing has ever been proven on what actually happens. Yes, I know that there have been studies on warming the ice, differences 3rd sweepers make, brush head pressure, speed, etc. But, there hasn't been any studies absolutely proving the most effective result with sweeping. I will hold off my opinion on Gushue's team sweeping until I hear from them why they are doing it. The TV commentators never actually told us why. I have heard that they are saving the sweepers, not wanting to cancel the line, to forming a groove, to preserving the pebble, etc.
One thing I do know, is just because a team does something doesn't mean that is the reason they win. If that were the case, then all the other 99.99% of the teams would be losing. It may be a factor, but, I still want to know from them why they are doing it.

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Registered: Oct 2013
Location:
Posts: 559

I have not seen any coverage of the single sweeper sweeping for line, so I cannot comment from observation. But as I think about it, I feel like it make sense. I have always felt like that many times when when sweeping for line only, the rock ends up deeper that you would like (especially for tight lines with rocks near the house rather than long guards). And at the elite level, when they sweep for line, they are normally sweeping for a slightly tight line, meaning they are trying to prevent a small 1/2" or 1" of curl. Its not like they are league hacks who sweep for line and pray that the sweepers can correct a rock that is thrown a full half a rock tight on line.

So I think that the idea has some logical merit to it. BUT, as I think about it, I have seen all of these styles of sweeping:

1 person cleaning the ice
2 people cleaning the ice
1 person sweeping hard
2 people sweeping hard
1 person sweeping hard and the second person cleaning

Then take all of those factors, and combine the permutations of sweepers using synthetic pads or hair pads, and which is closer or further from the rock

Interesting that there are so many techniques, and no one truly knows when to use which one, its all educated hunches.

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Registered: Feb 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 407

quote:

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Originally posted by Itsjustagame
@Par

In your opinion ''if they knew what they were doing, they would be one of the best team in the world.''

I guess that ranking #3 on the WCT Order of Merit is not good enough for you?

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Registered: Jul 2013
Location: Portage La Prairie
Posts: 2

I think at one point during the final Gushue even said something to the effect of ``it just isnt effective``. Now i don`t know if he was refering to the sweeping but it was after one of his missed shots so it will be interesting to see if they continue with the one sweeper.

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Registered: Sep 2015
Location: Toronto
Posts: 57

Perhaps with such smal margins Gushue believes the front sweeper slightly offsets the stratening effect of closer brush? Great things to try and good for them sticking to it. Four finals and two wins so far, not bad!

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shaqdaddy

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Registered: Jan 2011
Location:
Posts: 1962

quote:

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Originally posted by shaqdaddy
Perhaps with such smal margins Gushue believes the front sweeper slightly offsets the stratening effect of closer brush? Great things to try and good for them sticking to it. Four finals and two wins so far, not bad!

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Registered: Sep 2015
Location: Toronto
Posts: 57

Straightening

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shaqdaddy

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Registered: Sep 2015
Location: Toronto
Posts: 5

quote:

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Originally posted by dks
The great thing about sweeping is nothing has ever been proven on what actually happens. Yes, I know that there have been studies on warming the ice, differences 3rd sweepers make, brush head pressure, speed, etc. But, there hasn't been any studies absolutely proving the most effective result with sweeping...

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Registered: Oct 2012
Location:
Posts: 119

Interesting about your rock study, but, the link in your reply doesn't work for me. How much ice time are you looking for?

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Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 4002

What is going on right now is a major shift in how the game is played due to the change in fabric used on brushes. The thing that makes the Hardline brushes so effective is the **more effective** fabric that allows teams to affect the line of shots much more than ever before.

BalancePlus has put similar fabric into play on some of their LiteSpeed brushes and now Goldline has got the same thing in place for their competitive teams at the Point Optical in Saskatoon.

The result of this fabric is so effective it allows teams to totally control shots, taking draw that would normally curl 4 foot straight down the ice. It also allows teams to call sweeping later on line shots like hits and rolls and shots around guards, essentially reacting immediately to brushing.

Gushue's team is likely one to really study the effectiveness of sweeping, and the reason for a single sweeper is that the 2nd sweeper on opposite side actually counters the works the sweeper in front of the stone is doing, making the sweeping less effective overall.

It's a huge shift in the game that not everyone is happy with. Players don't have to throw it as good anymore, just be close and never be outside the brush on a shot.

** EDIT ** - Corrected to reflect the fabric is still multi-directional, but affects ice differently.

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Registered: Sep 2015
Location: Toronto
Posts: 57

Hardline pioneered this but anybody can now buy these brooms. Their research I believe showed warming top of pebble is better than driving the material down between the pebble as most brush heads do Hence actually damaging the ice less. I'm an aggressive front ender, bought an Ice Pad last year.....no way I'd switch back! Next move is two guys, same side to hold line, then one pivots to "hi" side to finish the curl with down stroke!

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shaqdaddy

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Registered: Jan 2015
Location: Toronto, On
Posts: 20

Gerry mentioned that the new "directional" fabric vs a cross-threaded fabric is what appears to be making the difference. Could anybody expand on this idea - or point to another explanation? I don't quite understand how the difference in the stitching can be so important.

For instance, I don't always sweep holding my Hardline broom in the same orientation (unlike one might with a hair broom, where there is a clear "front" and "back" side).

Cheers.

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Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 4002

It's not smoother but more effective fabric that creates micro-scratches on the ice instead of warming the pebble. From what I've witnessed it doesn't ruin the ice if used properly (one effective brush, one other brush such as hair or less aggressive cloth).

They are a huge benefit to club curlers who now generate more control over their shots, but not so much it becomes automatic. The question is that at the elite level is it taking too much of the skill out of shotmaking and that they're TOO good?

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Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 4002

quote:

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Originally posted by Toronto_curler
Gerry mentioned that the new "directional" fabric vs a cross-threaded fabric is what appears to be making the difference. Could anybody expand on this idea - or point to another explanation? I don't quite understand how the difference in the stitching can be so important.

For instance, I don't always sweep holding my Hardline broom in the same orientation (unlike one might with a hair broom, where there is a clear "front" and "back" side).

Cheers.

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Registered: Dec 2003
Location:
Posts: 25

quote:

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Originally posted by fresca
are there any opinions on how much it reduces the curl ?

10% , 50% or 90% ????????????????

is it affected by weight of curler 200 pounder with most of his weight concentrating on the spot in front of the rock - or probably it is more affected by the speed of the sweeping that causes heat and allows the rock to hydrofoil ..

if it eliminates the curl it will be huge trouble for the game

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Registered: Dec 2003
Location:
Posts: 25

I was always under the impression that a hydrofoil was using foils under the hull of a boat to lift the out of water to reduce surface tension. It's basically a wing under the boat. The hydrofoil boats I've been on have been that, but perhaps the term can be used more broadly that I haven't heard of.

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Registered: Aug 2014
Location:
Posts: 106

In golf, nobody cares about WHY a driver is better than another or if it's good for the game. You just go out and get it.

With so many teams WINNING using the Hardline broom these days, it only makes sense to get one the same way we all got the Hammer and then the Performance Brush when they were the best thing out there. The same way that we don't use corn brooms and Rink Rats any more

Game changer, perhaps. How is that a bad thing?

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Registered: Oct 2012
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Posts: 119

I'm in favor of using the best equipment out there too, but, one always has to factor in the sponsorship aspect when it comes to equipment used by certain teams. I don't know which broom is the best, but, I'm pretty sure MOST teams would switch equipment if they got a better sponsorship deal. Stating that one team has won because of the equipment is stretching it. I'm willing to bet all the teams that have won so far would have won using any type of broom.

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Registered: May 2014
Location: Joliet, IL
Posts: 629

quote:

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Originally posted by dks
I'm in favor of using the best equipment out there too, but, one always has to factor in the sponsorship aspect when it comes to equipment used by certain teams. I don't know which broom is the best, but, I'm pretty sure MOST teams would switch equipment if they got a better sponsorship deal. Stating that one team has won because of the equipment is stretching it. I'm willing to bet all the teams that have won so far would have won using any type of broom.

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