Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 2613

Lots of negativity in the old CurlingZone these days. I'm backing away from the sport, so I've keep most of my negative thoughts to myself.

I figure that I started a Positive Signs thread, so I'd balance it with a Negative Signs thread...although it doesn't seem needed.

Playdown signup deadlines are approaching. Men's and Women's come up in a dozen days. From the looks of the spiel entries, not too many Men's teams will be booking flights for Seattle. I hope I'm wrong. Women's might be SUAG. Again, I hope I'm wrong. I am often wrong.

For those of you who started curling after the Olympic bump, SUAG is an acronym for Sign Up And Go. It is when 10 or less teams enter a National event limited to 10 teams. It's not a good sign. If the USCA has been saying "Only dedicated are wanted and the rest should stay home", they're message may be getting heard. We'll see. I hope entries are just fine...especially Juniors...but I have my fears.

Ben Tucker

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Don't leave us Tuck. Your posts are hightlights on CZ

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Registered: Feb 2012
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Do juniors have any state or regional playdowns for junior nationals or have they also moved to challenge round only?

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Juniors are still done by state playdowns, though the HP team gets a bye into the tournament.

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I'll be very interested in seeing if many of the teams not trying for Nationals decide to go for Club Nats, or if we just see a steep decline in Playdown Related Competition this year.

I kinda suspect it'll be the latter of those. The USO..err...USCA policies have done wonders for reducing the size of the basket to put all our eggs in...here's hoping they don't end up on their faces.

On the other hand...an omelette might be the easy way out of this mess.

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Registered: Apr 2014
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Who the hell are these clowns to tell us who is a dedicated curler. If you fit into the rules that the usca pulled out of there ass to make the usoc happy that makes you a dedicated curler wtf. Just to much neg to list boy am I glad I am done with this crap. I just feel sorry for the young kids who are working there balls off and will never get the chance to be a part of what they call the dedicated curler club. Everybody should get the same chance and you need to earn it on ice winner takes all, enough with this I give you BS.

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Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
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I have to agree with Myles. Even if I did disagree, I don't have his credentials.

Among the negatives this week has to be the Junior Girls HPP team slimming from 6 girls to 5. Done in a somewhat timely fashion to allow the extra player to land some type of playdown spot (although it's a little late for that), it still seems like a dark day. Everybody knew that taking 6 girls to start would eventually end up here...but it still seems dark. Grace has declined her option to remain in the High Performance Program as a sub for the Women's teams.

This trend towards 5 man teams in Juniors is beginning to really upset me. HPP or not, it means a young curler is sitting out half the games and that is just crap. Keeping the kids engaged during long breaks between bonspiel games is tough enough. Having to do it while kids sit out half the games is impossible. Getting kids to enough quality events on a budget is tough enough. Then sitting one out makes the expenses seem too high.

Junior coaches, players and parents: Think hard before going with a 5 or 6 player team.

Ben Tucker

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Registered: Nov 2012
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quote:

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Originally posted by tuck

This trend towards 5 man teams in Juniors is beginning to really upset me. HPP or not, it means a young curler is sitting out half the games and that is just crap. Keeping the kids engaged during long breaks between bonspiel games is tough enough. Having to do it while kids sit out half the games is impossible. Getting kids to enough quality events on a budget is tough enough. Then sitting one out makes the expenses seem too high.

Junior coaches, players and parents: Think hard before going with a 5 or 6 player team.

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Registered: Jan 2014
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Tuck,

I think it is important to review the announcement on the USA curling Facebook Page- There has been a lot talked about regarding the handling of the 6 person Jr Womens HP Team and the resignation of Grace- More to the story than a simple resignation. The USCA, the HPP and all those making big decisions need to make a bold move and decide to be upfront, honest and truthful in how they are running things and making decisions. They need to stick to their established plan..... no more of this changing the program mid stream. This situation has shades of last years Jr Nationals decision regarding the Jr Womens team written all over it. Same people at the helm, same unethical bad decisions...

Compounded by the decision to take a bad situation and spinning it to make them look better all on social media... is really how we want to do business??? USA Curling and the HPP continue to stoop to an even lower level....

Sad sad time for curling...

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CrlGrl

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Registered: May 2011
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You beat me to it, CrlGrl!

This is the negative thread and there is no reason in the world I would want my kid to be an HPP 5th or 6th. You put in a lot of time, play very little if at all, and if your team wins you will get dropped so an up-and-coming skip can get experience.

Kids need to play, and they need a mix of learning from better players, learning how to win, and learning to have fun while competing. I don't know Grace, but I respect her decision and hope she finds a team to enjoy the rest of the season.

IMO, the HPP is designed to annoint a team and then to protect the chosen; it is horrendous for anyone on the outside. That may be fine for adults, but is a truly poor way to treat juniors.

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Registered: Oct 2003
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
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I question why the need to have one team of six instead of two teams.
Juniors can develop later and why deter them from competing so early in their development.
Question....did Pete Fenson ever win a Junior title????

Here are a list junior women that applied to HPP plan;
Sarah Anderson (Broomall, Pa.)
Taylor Anderson (Broomall, Pa.)
Libby Brundage (Killingworth, Conn.)
Cory Christensen (Duluth, Minn.)
Leilani Dubberstein (Portage, Wis.)
Brittany Falk (Poynette, Wis.)
Grace Gabower (Milton, Wis.)
Jenna Haag (Milton, Wis.)
Mackenzie Lank (Lewiston, N.Y.)
Tina Persinger (Fairbanks, Alaska)

Unless funding was an issue, I see no reason why two teams could not have been developed so the USCA could widen the pool of potential athletes for later.
Bill

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Here are a list junior women that applied to HPP plan;
Sarah Anderson (Broomall, Pa.)
Taylor Anderson (Broomall, Pa.)
Libby Brundage (Killingworth, Conn.)
Cory Christensen (Duluth, Minn.)
Leilani Dubberstein (Portage, Wis.)
Brittany Falk (Poynette, Wis.)
Grace Gabower (Milton, Wis.)
Jenna Haag (Milton, Wis.)
Mackenzie Lank (Lewiston, N.Y.)
Tina Persinger (Fairbanks, Alaska)

I think this is just the list of those that received the golden ticket to the Combine- Rumor has it there were other Juniors that applied but did not receive an invite to the Combine. And just in case there was anything unclear about the HPP's statement regarding what in fact they were selecting- the following is directly copied from the USA Curling website... 5-person teams were to be selected not 6. Simply the facts folks... see for yourself.... HPP cannot spin this at all. They simply did not follow their own set of rules and guidelines...

USA Curling's 2014-15 HPP calls for up to six teams of five persons each to be formed from the individuals invited in: a women's "A" and "B" team and junior team (age 21 and under), and a men's "A" and "B" team and a junior squad. Brown anticipates that that selection process will conclude by July 30, and all athletes accepted into the program for the coming season will attend a mandatory training camp Aug. 23-29 at the Olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs, Colo.

Thank you for stating this so clearly HPP staff!

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CrlGrl

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Registered: Feb 2012
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There seems to be a big overlap between the HP selected juniors and the National Mixed signups announced today. Were there any playdowns for Mixed Nationals? SUAG or did someone at national cherrypick applications if too many teams signed up for the space available? (Crossing fingers 'twas the former.)

RIP another event which adults could use for building national experience and for the value of our junior elites having reasonable time for school.

Going out of a limb, I predict an OOM list for mixed team points for next season, and within 2 years some automatic berths for Mixed Nationals and HP favored worlds selection with a complex formula of mixing men's and women's OOM points with mixed team points. Curling worlds and Olympics will end of being like tennis in the Olympics: just a bunch of the top professionals playing musical chairs with ranking and purses.

I have no problem with OOM being used to create a professional Slam circuit. But to inject OOM into deciding who gets to go to worlds or the Olympics or which juniors get financial support for an entire season is another matter.

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Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Plymouth, MN
Posts: 159

Alice-I assume you are referring to the Mixed Doubles Nationals. This event is and has always been a sign up and go event with no HP involvement. Not sure why so many of the junior HP players signed up this year. It would be interesting to know if the HP coaches encouraged any of the players to participate this year.

If Mixed Doubles makes it into the Olympics the HP program will certainly change the qualification procedure.

Last edited by MNIceman on 11-14-14 at 04:18PM

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Yes, meant Mixed Doubles. I see the teams were announced on the Team USA website Nov. 4, but it was just today I saw a Facebook post for that

I thought all players who sign an HP contract must have their season's training plan as well as all spiels entered be approved by HP staff, hence an HP junior signing up for Mixed Doubles without such approval would not happen, no?

Last edited by Alice on 11-14-14 at 05:51PM

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Registered: Dec 2005
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Just to keep me clear on all of this: Are people suggesting that A) HPP coaches should have the power to forbid HPP curlers from entering Mixed Doubles OR B) that the coaches should ban those curlers from entering Mixed Doubles?

For me, the answer to both is NO. Entering the Program is not entering indentured servitude. Mixed Doubles may be a distraction when it comes time for Worlds, but until they win Nationals (or garner the requite points) I don't see the harm.

Now I am NOT trying to sneak any positivity into the Negative Signs. I'm just looking to be clear.

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quote:

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Originally posted by tuck
Entering the Program is not entering indentured servitude.

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Last edited by SPMFromPCC on 11-19-14 at 06:16AM

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quote:

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Originally posted by SPMFromPCC


It's a strange situation all around. At the end of the day, I personally think it's one thing to dictate fortunes and futures to adult players....but to also do so to junior girls is REALLY getting into dark territory, regardless of the stakes.

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Either way...it's pretty damned cruel and heartless to cut a kid midseason, so late that they can't even have a realistic shot at forming up with another team for Jr. Playdowns.

Great way to crush a kid's interest in the sport, at the very least at achieving at the highest level. You wanna do that to an adult? Okay, fine...but a Junior?

Beyond heartless. Also just plain dumb. Another D- decision from Them Who Know Best.

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I think it is the type of thing that happens more with coach-selected elite teams. One of the advantages over self-selected teams should be that the coaches are more able to make difficult, emotion-free decisions.

And we should expect more unpopular, seemingly uncaring HPP decisions for the purpose of winning medals. Winning medals is primary, being nice is secondary.

Last edited by rbi on 11-19-14 at 03:58PM

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Registered: Jul 2013
Location: 216
Posts: 41

Alan,

as usual you are taking your criticism of the HP staff a step too far here. (although I guess this is the negative signs thread...) Heartless and Cruel are not the right terms here. Every player involved knew that when 6 players were selected somebody HAD to go. Now, you could argue with the choice of selecting 6 in the first place, and I would be the first to agree that was probably a bad decision, but no one could be suprised when a player was cut. Would have been hard to make the decision on WHO to cut any earlier as I am sure they wanted to see the players play in a few spiels with different lineups first, and my guess is that with school schedules not all players were available for all spiels, so it would take until early NOV to make a decision....I don't know the players very well so I can't speak to the decision on WHO to move, but we (and the players and their parents) all knew that SOMEONE was gone...sounds like and enevitable outcome and not a CRUEL and HEARTLESS decision...you act like they posted this on facebook and that's how the player found out. I would hope there was discussion about this before any of the news was released. If there wasn't, then your criticism is valid.

I'm much more interested in the "clarification of qualification to Kalamazoo" that was just posted on the USCA website. Sounds like the Jr HP womens team will be at Kalamzoo regardless of their finish at Junior Nat'ls. The men will probably have to win their way in as they will not pass Shuster or Brady in Points. also sort of sounds like they are making it up as they go along...

The real kicker will be how many Crazy Souls sign up to fly all the way to Seattle to play in the Challenge Round. I can't imagine a scenario where more than 7-9 mens teams make that trip for 5 spots(I hope I'm wrong)...what a joke...I understand inclusion of a West Coast site for the event every once in a while, but why would you pay $500 flight, 4-5 nights in a hotel, just so you can eliminate 2-4 teams, and EARN the right to spend more money and time in Kalamazoo. The problem isnt the site of the event as much as it is that the HP program has eliminated most of the competetion....

real interested to see the sign up numbers...

also people, pay attention to the Slam this weekend...with Shuster and McCormick in the same pool (wonder how that happend..) the winner of that game WILL earn points, and if one of them can knock off a couple of the big boys in their pool (especially Shuster), this thing could be over by the Duluth Cash or Eveleth

wish i could post something in the positive signs thread but not feeling that way right now....

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Registered: Feb 2011
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Great. Now we have the possibility of 2 junior teams playing in Men's/Women's Nationals and the possibility that the 6th place team from the challenge round will have to sit around for 2 weeks to see how the Jr Nationals finish up to know if they have a spot in Kalamazoo.

USCA announcements are bad for my blood pressure.

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Registered: Jul 2013
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Yeah, nothing like buying your hotel/airfare and requesting 6 days off work about 12 days in advance...Let's be honest though, are any of us suprised by this "clarification, errr i mean rule change? If I'm Brady, or Farbs, or Debbie, or Erika or Patti (any of the teams looking at that second or third place OOM spot I'm pissed that a JR team will be Selected ahead of me even though I am ahead in points...but that's just common sense talking. Be different if they had specified that the JR HPP team would be autoberthed into nationals, but they never said that.

Whats the point in including the HPP teams in the OOM rankings anyways, why not just autoberth them and give the top two NON HP teams the other spots?

I know alot of these decision makers and I just can't believe they haven't thought this through...

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On a brighter note [should this be in the "positive signs" blog?], with the USCA seemingly committing to announcing qualifying teams on December 21, there are only 32 more days in which the USCA can further clarify how teams will qualify for Nationals.

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Registered: Jan 2012
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On the first day of Christmas, the USCA decided for me, that the Juniors shall miss a second week of school...

On the second day of Christmas, the USCA decided for me, that the HPP teams playing each other get double the points...

On the third day of Christmas, the USCA decided for me, that teams with a nationally approved coach get the hammer in the 10th end...

On the fourth day of Christmas, the USCA decided for me, that only teams who are skipped by someone that has previously won US nationals will be allowed to make the playoffs in Kalamazoo.

Since I'm going to send a check to the USCA for the webstreaming to support my former teammates, should I also be sending a check to the non HPP teams that have enough points to be team USA if they win Nationals?

Just trying to bring some levity to these discussions.

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