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10-21-15 10:37PM
johnnysmoke is offline Click Here to See the Profile for johnnysmoke Click here to Send johnnysmoke a Private Message Find more posts by johnnysmoke Add johnnysmoke to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
johnnysmoke
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quote:
Originally posted by Gerry
I know for a fact that Curling Canada and the World Curling Federation are taking this very seriously and contemplating their next move. The biggest issue for them is that they can't just implement any kind of serious change without properly testing and going over all considerations.

1. Fabric
2. Inserts in Brushpads
3. How sweeping affects shots

This is not a problem with a simple solution. Hours upon hours of discussion and analysis and there is no great answer yet on where this has to go.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I recall a story just after the 2010 Olympics involving new curling broom technology developed in secrecy for Canada's Olympians.

The broom head had a strip of insulation which directs more heat onto the ice while curlers are sweeping.

The technology was developed under Own The Podium's Top Secret program to give Canada a competitive advantage.

That was like 5 years ago; and now these curling bodies have become altruistic and concerned? What gives?

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10-21-15 10:41PM
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USCA statement on broom technology

By Terry Davis | 10/21/2015 2:10:00 PM

The U.S. Curling Association fully supports the World Curling Federations intention to review the latest broom head technologyspecifically that using directional fabric to determine if this equipment should be allowable under the fair standards of play.

Curling is a sport deeply rooted in traditions of sportsmanship, fair play and camaraderie. This is nowhere more evident than in the recent actions taken by many of the worlds elite curlers who have imposed a self-ban on using directional fabric broom heads in competitive curling, while encouraging the sports governing bodies to thoroughly assess this equipment and all aspects of sweeping to ensure that the spirit of curling is being maintained.

We are confident that the World Curling Federation will collaborate with all significant stakeholders including the curling equipment manufacturers so vital to the sportto arrive at the best possible solution to maintain the athleticism of curling and a level playing field for all involved

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10-21-15 11:37PM
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There is a remarkable degree of cohesion and coherence at the top of the game. Both among the top players and the top organizations.

The cohesion is that everyone is on the same page.

The coherence is the page they are on.

I.e. The problem is broom technology that reduces the athleticism required for superior sweeping and the skill required for superior shooting.

Again I reiterate. Our game is in good hands.

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10-22-15 01:44AM
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Alice
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Has that Canadian study shared its results other then what is seen at these links below? The second link mentioned some secrets were not ready for sharing yet.

http://hawkscurlinghpc.ca/resources...ue-of-brushing/
http://www.curling.ca/blog/2010/10/...eeping-secrets/

I've no problem with anyone using a secret magic fabric broom because such trade secrets always get out eventually. The first to discover an improved material or technique deserves to reap some benefits. And we'll all find out one day from WCF which fabrics are too damaging to ice and which are OK with some new whiz-bang scratch tests.

I am now envisioning a scratch test involving hard set jello shots and all sorts of brooms and brushes.... it could be the beginning of a new bar sport.



quote:
Originally posted by johnnysmoke
Correct me if I'm wrong but I recall a story just after the 2010 Olympics involving new curling broom technology developed in secrecy for Canada's Olympians.

The broom head had a strip of insulation which directs more heat onto the ice while curlers are sweeping.

The technology was developed under Own The Podium's Top Secret program to give Canada a competitive advantage.

That was like 5 years ago; and now these curling bodies have become altruistic and concerned? What gives?

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10-22-15 07:53AM
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curler2014
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quote:
Originally posted by fresca
cmon Gerry this has been going on for years .these brooms have been ruining the ice and spoiling the fairness of the game - only reason we found out what was happening was it became flagrant

obviously some teams used it to their considerable advantage and when a few teams protested even the " users" signed on

the "employeees " in charge of the high competitive training must be aware of this mess. - what else do they know ?




.. they cant even hire someone to run the Curling Canada. or cca

thats been a year ... need some curlers on the board methinks ..



You want Curling Canada to do something about it. Back it up. Will you be the one that pays the MASSIVE lawsuit that WILL occur and that WILL be won by the manufacturers when Curling Canada haphazardly does what you want and bans certain brooms? Are they going to kneejerk and risk hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars because a couple of uneducated morons what them to. There are serious legal consequences to this, besides the fact that in Curling Canada's bylaws it takes AT LEAST 45 days for a new rule to be implemented even if blatant evidence comes to show these brooms are in fact damaging the ice or whatever.

Both the WCF and Curling Canada are doing their best within their rules of order and bylaws to get this issue resolved. This order of business will take time and it sucks, but it has to protect all parties involved and the stakeholders of the game.

The only part of what is going on that I am left to question, which is all hindsight, is why in the heck didn't someone, somewhere in all of the WCFs member associations or any players ever not consider that this could be an issue? It seems so simple now that a rule should be in place and some means of testing.

Last edited by curler2014 on 10-22-15 at 07:55AM

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10-22-15 08:26PM
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Team McEwen issued a statement:

http://mcewencurling.com/?p=353

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10-22-15 10:50PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Phil_D
Team McEwen issued a statement:

http://mcewencurling.com/?p=353



Well, it's a well written statement that attempts to support their sponsor and recognize the curlers who are making vociferous claims they are unable to prove.

I appreciate the fine line they're trying to walk. But in the end they should have taken a strong stance against those claims until such time that science, not opinion, proves or disproves the claims.

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10-23-15 01:58AM
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A very classy statement by Team McEwen. Again nice to see that there is so much cooperation going on to resolve this problem.

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10-23-15 10:12AM
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Itsjustagame
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Accusations on McEwen and other Hardline teams are getting ridiculous.

HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of fans were watching last year as McEwen played just about every televised event. NONE of us saw rocks being steered. If those 4 guys were steering rocks, millions of us were blind.

Hardline teams are now ostracized by a group of competitors. Hardline teams use their pads inside out and still Laycock won last week. What a coincidence, the group doing the persecution has ties with other manufacturers and cannot accept that McEwen has just been the best CURLING team. Period.

Stop the nonsense.

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10-23-15 12:45PM
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Bob Weeks with his take:

http://www.tsn.ca/inside-curling-s-...oversy-1.381050

Not much new there, maybe a quote or two. Still, I think it's a pretty fair and concise summation of things so far.

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10-23-15 12:53PM
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quote:
Originally posted by fresca
lol. must be hard to admit that you didnt notice the problems .. good for you ..

it was so obvious in some events i stopped watching ..

the players were talking about the pic's and, flat spots , and runs, and the fact that often 2 rocks with similar weight and path ran differently


perhaps you were distracted by Joan blaming the releases , concentration ... blah blah blah. Mike was just about as bad..

Kevin usually avoided the blaming of the misses on the players ... players that often curl 100% that were missing relatively easy shots

btw. of the 900,000 viewers most were never curlers , let alone good curlers


maybe Rogers can do a compilation of the " bad misses". and inconsistent shots from last year before next friday. .... lots of the shots were game changers and game winners


even last months slam on replay showing shots by those that used the new brooms might show us what is happening

not that hard to correct in my opinion

billions would be interested



I was going to stay out of this conversation after I said my bit earlier, mostly because we're going in circles and we're split into two camps (for the most part) and not agreeing on much. Other than we need the WCF and CCA to step up and get involved.

But this comment is pure troll bait. It may be obvious to you, but it's not obvious to many curlers, of which you have stated you are not one for the past 35 years.

Curlers are still playing in the 80-90's at the top levels. Yes, there are occasional issues with the ice, but I'd be surprised that it's the blame of one broom or another. And ice conditions are still far better now in the majority of events than they were 10-15-20 years ago.

Good thing your opinions are not go into be the basis of any decisions that are going to be made. Nor should it be made exclusively by the '22' elite curlers. Any decision needs to be made on actual scientific evidence and investigation, not the ravings and conjectures of a handful of people based upon their opinion.

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10-23-15 01:09PM
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Itsjustagame
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Yes Fresca. You always knew. We were all blind but YOU saw right through this conspiracy. So why did you not post something in that matter LAST YEAR?

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10-23-15 07:42PM
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RockDoc
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quote:
Originally posted by JustAnotherHack
Any decision needs to be made on actual scientific evidence and investigation


I think this is correct. Anecdotes do not equal evidence. I think evidence can be gathered under controlled situations.

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10-23-15 07:53PM
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quote:
Originally posted by RockDoc


I think this is correct. Anecdotes do not equal evidence. I think evidence can be gathered under controlled situations.



I think everyone agrees on this. The question is how do you deal with this in the meantime? Not an easy answer.

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10-24-15 12:12AM
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quote:
Originally posted by peteski


I think everyone agrees on this. The question is how do you deal with this in the meantime? Not an easy answer.



It won't be. But what RockDoc did looking at the fabric is a good start. And the work that Nyberg did is important as well.

The catch is that for years we just guessed what happened. We need to fund and do some actual research and then decide what sort of limits we set on equipment.

Opinions and beliefs based on incidental observations in uncontrolled conditions does not equate proof. I know I'm beating my head against a wall with a lot of folks on this point (and it's something that is not unique to this discussion), but I'll keep repeating it.

If anything though, I think the WCF and Curling Canada has finally realized they need to start looking at standards for equipment. Because I guarantee you, if there are no rules in place (both on equipment, and on sweeping, and maybe more detailed rules around all aspects of the game), some country is going to exploit it for that Olympic medal.

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10-24-15 12:27AM
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The simple truth is there is no way to deal with this except to draw a starting line. We don't have one. We have to, as a sport, say this is where Standardization begins. Where testing starts. Where limits starts. Where we finally draw the line on sweeping motions as to what is acceptable and what isn't. Where we do some science instead of pointing fingers at fellow competitors.

And where we all grow up as a sport. And where we all say that not a small group of individuals say they speak for all of us. But we form a true players association that speaks for us all.

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10-24-15 09:38AM
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The small group of players is not saying that they are speaking for all of us. Very much the opposite. They are instead saying that lacking any other resolution at this time they have agreed among themselves to 'even the playing field' by turning back the clock on broom fabrics.

They have not said that this applies to the club level. They have not even said that this applies to the whole of the WCT. They have instead said that the signatories have voluntarily agreed to lead by example for this interim period.

They know better than anyone else that the the WCF and CCA are the organizations that need to set the standards which will govern the game. In fact a number of them went to the CCA and WCF months ago asking for just that.

This small group of players knowing that a permanent resolution will take time believed for the good of the game that leadership was required and they have endeavoured, courageously, to provide it.

Last edited by JB42 on 10-24-15 at 10:54PM

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10-24-15 01:50PM
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That's an altruistic outlook but not a realistic one in terms of implementation.

One small group stating they're not going to use a piece of equipment that is alleged to have certain properties that are unproven and possibly unfounded is not the right direction. In fact it is misleading their fellow competitors and could have a negative impact on the game and a company whose continued existence relies on our sport.

Remember, theses brooms are completely legal under the rules as they are now. Not to say that there shouldn't be proper, independent, scientific testing and strict standards. But until then there should be no ban or moratorium placed on the equipment.

The accusations are alleged and unproven. Until such time as proven otherwise the equipment is fine for any team to use and no player should be chastised for using it.

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10-24-15 02:32PM
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If they all had to use classic "Hammers" until this is resolved it would be interesting to see how many would agree.

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10-24-15 11:49PM
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Jamcan you are of course entitled to your opinion, as am I, as is anyone on this forum

Freedom of expression however is not what I am talking about in this case. Instead what I am talking about is the opinion of many of the most influential teams in the world. Their opinion is......regardless of what you or anyone anywhere believe.....that they have sufficient evidence to say that the integrity of the game is being compromised.

This is what they are saying, as this is what they believe. You are free to say you don't believe them as you doubt their integrity if this is what you think. I however do not doubt their integrity.

What they are not saying is that they have or want the power to enact standards that will determine what brooms can and can't be used. Very much the opposite. They are saying they don't have and don't want that power.

Instead. The reason they have acted is because they feel the playing field is no longer level. They also believe the athleticism of the game is being negatively impacted. Are they saying they could prove that with physics equations? Nope. In a court of law, should it come to that? Nope. All they are saying is based on their interpretation of what is happening on the ice this is their belief.

You are of course free to say they are wrong. Though I've got to say considering your insistence that there is as of yet no proof one way or another. I'm not sure on what you are basing your disagreement with the very best players in the world.

My take is very different.Let's again take a look at who signed the letter agreeing to put the genie back in the bottle until a more permanent solution can be enacted: Team Brad Jacobs, Team Sherry Middaugh, Team Mike McEwen, Team Kevin Koe, Team Kelsey Rocque, Team Brendan Bottcher, Team Eve Muirhead, Team Glenn Howard, Team Niklas Edin, Team Steve Laycock, Team Brad Gushue, Team Jennifer Jones, Team John Epping, Team Val Sweeting, Team Thomas Ulsrud, Team Chelsea Carey, Team Reid Carruthers, Team Binia Feltscher, Team Rachel Homan, Team Jaap van Dorp, Team David Murdoch and Team Pat Simmons.

My take is that when you are talking this many of the very best players in the world saying 'Houston we have a problem' then there is a problem. And given that the rule's bodies refused to take the lead on this issue what has transpired was inevitable. The perfect pair of classic axioms, "If you can't beat them, join em." And "Two wrongs don't make a right."

There is also the fact that BP's response was not an attempt to level the playing field. It was attempt to say that broom technology was both capable of going to far AND in fact had already gone too far.

The players are simply trying to rescue this season from melting down in a spectacularly negatively way. A not unlikely outcome unless a stunning amount of good will is shown on all sides. And from a very difficult starting place. To my mind they have done an exceptional job of showing exactly the good will required.

My projection based on all the evidence at my disposal. This will ultimately prove to be a tiny blip on the curling radar. A largely forgotten footnote in the history of the game.

We got past the improvement in ice technology. An improvement that led the game to become excruciatingly predictable. And we got past that improvement in technology thanks to the leadership of the elite players with their creation of the FGZ. The rule's bodies followed. When that proved to be insufficient to the task the players once again led with the adoption of the four rock rule. Again the rule's bodies followed.

The Grand Slams are continuing that leadership of the game by recognizing that the hammer in end 1 of the game is too disproportionate of an advantage. Leading to the birth of the five rock rule. So far among the elite players at least an unalloyed success.

And now with 'Broomgate' they are being placed in the position of having to lead the game once again. To my mind they are - once again - placing the interests of the game first. Leading the game well, with the best of intentions, and with the same talent and skill they exhibit on the ice.

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10-25-15 10:30PM
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Yes, we'll JB42 what a long, rambling post you wrote that basically ignores facts.

I've said before,which you tediously ignore,that I agree with testing and standardization of equipment. But you continue to drone on that the so-called 'elite' teams are at the forefront of our game and know more about what's going on than the rest of us.

We'll, I'm sorry to burst your bubble but I don't agree.

Why? Because all I hear is subjective speech with nothing to back up opinions and accusations. And let's refer to Amy Nixon ' s recent article where she, a lawyer, voices concern about a certain men's team saying they will 'shame' teams using the Icepad broom. Yet this same team felt no problem whipping out the blackhead (how appropriate, btw, lets name our broom after a zit) to win money in a spiel

Shaming teams? For playing within the rules? What does that have to do with sportsmanship? The spirit of the game? And what does this same team provide as proof of their claims? Two videos that would get them laughed out of a grade 8 science class.

And don't whip out your version of WCT history as justification of your opinion. For everyone of the points you list I can counter with a blunder that shows the WCT as every bit as human and mistake prone as the governing bodies. So do us all a favor and park your glorification efforts. They have nothing to do with the issue at hand.

Raise the issue to the powers that be? Absolutely. But beyond that stay quiet. Because all it starts to look like, imo,is a small group of teams who don't like that others are catching up and starting to beat them.

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10-25-15 10:49PM
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Well JB, you did get one thing right... you're entitled to your opinion. As are the elite. And Fresca.

But everyone seems to forget the opinions and incidental observations do not make evidence that can be acted upon. Including the elite.

Now the good that's coming out of this is that it appears that actual research and proper experimentation and evidence is being gathered to make a proper determination.

The bad... a company got smeared by another company and a handful of the elite based upon some questionable decisions and inconclusive observations and correlations. Then there seems to have been a concerted effort to shame teams... and that's makes it stink even more.

The elite is more than welcome to speak their mind about the game, and they're expected to do so. And being the elite gives their input a certain weight. But with that power comes a certain responsibility to act in certain ways... and well, they tripped all over themselves and made themselves look badly in the process. Some teams more than others mind you.

But they also need to remember curling is more than the elite. They seem to forget that from time to time.

JB, I don't agree with you, and I definitely feel at the club and the lower competitive levels, most curlers are on my side of the issue (of course, that's just based on conversations... no surveys or anything like that). For this sport to flourish and grow, it needs to be led and guided by more than the elite.

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10-26-15 10:54AM
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JB42
Drawmaster

 

Registered: Nov 2012
Location: Toronto
Posts: 621

It seems to me that Jamcan and Just Another Hack are in need of rereading what other people have written. Be that as it may I must conclude from their statements that they have missed the forest for the trees. I.e. Their fixation on the fact that there is as of yet no rigorous scientific testing has caused them to miss the very many more important elements to this story.

Furthermore they misrepresent the facts that we do have at our disposal. For example. This group of 22 teams don't believe they have the power to regulate the technology allowed in the game. Not only that they are clear about not wanting that power. To quote their statement: "We have had discussions with the governing bodies of our sport and we are confident they will act in a prompt manner to create committees that will look into these concerns and ultimately look at all aspects of sweeping and ensure that fair play standards are enacted that are in line with the spirit of the sport."

This declaration makes no claims to being binding. It does the very opposite of claiming authority over the rule's bodies and instead express their confidence that these bodies will act promptly to enact the standards needed.

It is a simple statement of aspirations by the teams who chose to sign on. Their aspiration being that the skill and athleticism of the game not be negatively impacted by broom technology.

The following article in the Winnipeg Free Press expresses well what I believe is the correct interpretation of events.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/sp...-333111391.html

Here in the opening line it shows the media's take on this controversy: "An unprecedented leap in sweeping technology threatens to dramatically change the sport of curling."

You can find any number of articles saying the same thing. I have found none taking the Jamcan and JAH line. I.e. The status quo was fine, wait for evidence, proof, and rules.

The article then goes on to quote Gerry Peckham - Canadian Curling Association's Director, High Performance - "Because the players have taken a position and made a statement, it will be much easier for associations to support the player movements."

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10-26-15 06:39PM
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Itsjustagame
Hitting Paint

 

Registered: Aug 2014
Location:
Posts: 106

Fresca,

First you call many of us turkeys for not noticing what was going on regarding rocks being steered. Furthermore, Joan McCusker and Kevin Martin were out in left field trying to find other explanations on Sportsnet. I know, I know... 9/11 was also an inside job.

I asked you why you never said anything about the Hardline brooms being able to steer a rock until now since you claim to have known for what it seems for ever. You answered something about you stating in another post since last year that you have been complaining about the flat ice and the picks. And how in your superior intelligence do you know those to be Hardline making? How about Johnny Mo, JM Menard and others with their hands and knees on the ice after every shot? How do you know it is not the Norway pad with their ridges DESIGNED to scratch the ice? How do you know it is not the EQ pads with their aluminum foil inside DESIGNED to reflect the heat and melt the pebble? The picks, are you sure they are not from players wearing old grippers? Have you notice elite teams cleaning their brush with their hand after every shot OVER the ice surface?

Now, who exactly are you calling cheaters?

FYI, Hardline teams have played the last two weeks with their pads INSIDE OUT. Steve Laycock won the Canad INNS last week. Gushue won the Chateau Cartier in Quebec this past weekend. This is getting HILARIOUS!!! How about this: Hardline teams are superior right now. Other teams need to raise their level of play and stop making bogus accusations.

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10-26-15 07:36PM
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JB42
Drawmaster

 

Registered: Nov 2012
Location: Toronto
Posts: 621

Well I know one person who doesn't agree: Gushue's team began using brooms with directional fabric this season "because we had an absolutely horrible record against teams using this equipment last year and we felt we were at a competitive disadvantage," he said.~ Winnipeg Free Press

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