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| 03-11-15 09:25AM |
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AlanMacNeill
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 1064 |
It is obvious based upon past and current behavior that the current HPP staff is enamored of thinking of themselves as master level pullers behind the scenes, ala Herb Brooks, Phil Jackson, or Bill Belichik.
What they fail to realize, however, is that in hockey, basketball, and football, substitutions are part of the game, teams are built with sizes much larger than the number of players that are on the field at any given moment, and strategy regarding substitutions to maintain freshness and maximize matchups are important.
None of those things is the case in curling. The fifth is meant to be there as a replacement in case of injury, you can't sub in and out in the middle of a game (absent *really* unique circumstances), and the teams that work best are the teams that are meddled with the least.
Fire Derek. Get an actual *coaching* staff for our best curlers, not a meddling General Manager.
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| 03-11-15 12:25PM |
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Jimbobogie
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2014
Location:
Posts: 538 |
quote:
Originally posted by murphyj87
Glenn Howard's team lived all over Ontario and seldom, if ever, practiced together.
Carey is a Manitoban curling in Alberta.
Laing is an Ontarian curling in Alberta.
Morris was an Albertan curling in BC.
Nichols was a Newfoundlander curling in Manitoba.
Fry is a Manitoban curling in Newfoundland then in Northern Ontario.
In the 1988 Olympic trials, there were team made up by the CCA, including one with 3 Nova Scotians plus Kim Dolan from PEI and Linda Moore's winning team had Debby Jones and Patti Vande from Manitoba on it as well as having Penny Ryan from a entirely different BC team that the CCA moved to Linda Moore's team. Three of the teams for 1988 Olympic trials were MADE UP BY THE CCA.
The 2006 gold medalists in Turin had 3 from Newfoundland and ..... wait for it ...... Russ Howard from New Brunswick.
Teams for Olympic trials could well have 1 from Newfoundland, 1 from Ontario, 1 from Manitoba, and 1 from Alberta, and nothing stops that from happening at the Brier or STOH in the current "free agent" environment..
Murph-the 1988 Olympics were a very long time ago-before there was a pro circuit and "Olympic Points". Howard was brought into Gushue's rink-interesting that he hasn't won a Brier...again, 8 years ago.
As for your other examples, the "Free Agent Market" each year may rival the NHL, but the question remains-where do the curlers live during the season?
__________________
Jim
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| 03-11-15 02:37PM |
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RockDoc
Swing Artist
Registered: Apr 2005
Location:
Posts: 399 |
quote:
Originally posted by ChiefIceMinion
Since we're spouting Latin, based on looking at the lineups in the official results, 4 different shooting/skipping/vicing orders in 5 games is, prima facie, a coaching staff that does not have any sort of plan. Also not sure how a coach (or team, for that matter) arrives at a 5 game benching on the basis of one game, again, just looking at the listed rotations in the WCF official results.
Unfortunately it would seem that the on-the-ground facts would help to explain what the heck was going on, but anyone with skin in the program seems to be unwilling to shed any light on the goings on, which just heightens the sense of non-accountability of the HP Program to the rest of "us".
Chief Ice Minion
Exactly. If there was a coherent plan to use the 5th--especially to bring in the 5th as the skip--then it should have been decided well in advance and the team given at least some time to acclimate to a new lineup. Then stick with that plan. Did that happen? The lineups appeared to be shuffled around from game to game, apparently without regard to team dynamics. We'll never know if the team might have done as well or better without the lineup changes. Can anyone remember a situation in competitive curling where a 5th was brought in shortly before an event to skip a team? I'm not coming up with anything.
I think it is hard enough to compete at any level, but all the more so when there are unnecessary distractions. Did the introduction of the 5th outweigh those distractions? Without the control experiment, we won't know.
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| 03-11-15 03:39PM |
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CURLogic
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Hill Valley
Posts: 13 |
So there seems to be discontent with coaches and approaches. I've read some ideas for approach changes. How about the coaches? Who do you think would be better at coaching the U.S. teams? Tough job, since there aren't alot of them currently and many past players may not have much experience. Like other sports, until their is a track record it's very speculative.
__________________
McFly
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| 03-11-15 07:17PM |
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Flat Hat
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Mar 2014
Location:
Posts: 86 |
quote:
Originally posted by RockDoc
Exactly. If there was a coherent plan to use the 5th--especially to bring in the 5th as the skip--then it should have been decided well in advance and the team given at least some time to acclimate to a new lineup. Then stick with that plan. Did that happen? The lineups appeared to be shuffled around from game to game, apparently without regard to team dynamics. We'll never know if the team might have done as well or better without the lineup changes. Can anyone remember a situation in competitive curling where a 5th was brought in shortly before an event to skip a team? I'm not coming up with anything.
I think it is hard enough to compete at any level, but all the more so when there are unnecessary distractions. Did the introduction of the 5th outweigh those distractions? Without the control experiment, we won't know.
I recall that a woman's skip was replaced / removed from her team by a USCA coach a few years back, I think it was a midwest team. The jr worlds strategy is plainly to give the chosen skip experience at the worlds so that he can go back and win nationals next year.
So, theoretically, now that Shuster has won the Nationals and qualified for worlds, does he now accept a new/different 5th and will the coach from HPP make the same roster changes they made in Jr. Worlds?
I would lock the coach in the bathroom in the hotel before I would let them take my team away at worlds, just so they could put their hand-picked person in my spot, but John has more class than that. Anyone know if duct tape is allowed on international flights? 
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| 03-11-15 08:02PM |
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Alice
Swing Artist
Registered: Feb 2012
Location:
Posts: 324 |
quote:
Originally posted by ChiefIceMinion
Unfortunately it would seem that the on-the-ground facts would help to explain what the heck was going on, but anyone with skin in the program seems to be unwilling to shed any light on the goings on, which just heightens the sense of non-accountability of the HP Program to the rest of "us".
Chief Ice Minion
Yes, and anyone with concerns, complaints or worries has been labeled uninformed and makes hard working players like Hufman and Plys heartbroken and sad.
Tuck asked us for constructive ideas USOC could support. How about some of these to improve HPP accountability, raise all boats, make the playing field more level. and give joy and not more sadness to all competitive players? Still time this year to embrace some of these idea.
- USCA could promote on its social media private fundraising efforts for players' personal coaches and supporters to attend national and world competitions.
-Allow and actively support last minute microsponsors for national qualifiers.
-HPP annual statement with 100% disclosure for all income and expenses down to which people and facilities received what cash and reimbursements, including details for all events coordinated by HPP for past world and Olympic players under HPP contract which may be "off books" like the 49ers Squaw Valley annual luxury event.
-End age discrimination in HP combine player selection and invites to all events coordinated through HPP. Hiding behind "fitness" and "coachability" (especially for skips) is smoke and mirrors for illegal age discrimination.
-Allow on-ice national winners to select their own coaches for world events.
Alice
P.S. USCA, Incorporated's press release today on Women's Worlds mentioned twice that USA won gold in 2003 but could not bring itself to say what team won it. Debbie McCormick's 2003 team, huzzah!
Last edited by Alice on 03-11-15 at 08:05PM
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| 03-11-15 08:36PM |
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VAcurler
Hitting Paint
Registered: Jan 2012
Location:
Posts: 136 |
Building on Alice's positive thoughts let me add some of my own in regards to transparency.
1. As a broken record, I am starting with the obvious you have to win Nationals to be Team USA because I believe everyone except the HPP coaches think this is a good idea. If only 4 teams are allowed to go to Nationals, fine, but you have to win the event.
2. Specify what the requirements are for the World Team coach. So if a non-HPP team already has a coach if they meet the qualifications they become the World Team coach. If a team has a coach, and just qualified to be Team USA, why is a new coach required? Make the bar as high as you want at the beginning of the season but stick to it. And if previous experience as a coach at Worlds is a requirement, then provide a mechanism for said coach to qualify.
3. Specify (publicly or at least to the World Team) who the 5th players can be. If the HPP wants a skip as a 5th fine, but it needs to be the team's choice and if the team doesn't want to be given a new 5th if they win Nationals, I would suggest starting the season with a 5 person team and a predetermined "backup" skip.
Basically it comes down to one basic concept: If a team can beat the HPP team on the ice, then leave them alone. Until the HPP team consistently wins Nationals, non HPP teams should be able to do what is best for them.
Jason
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| 03-11-15 10:46PM |
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dbsdbs
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2013
Location:
Posts: 812 |
quote:
Originally posted by murphyj87
In the 1988 Olympic trials, there were team made up by the CCA, including one with 3 Nova Scotians plus Kim Dolan from PEI and Linda Moore's winning team had Debby Jones and Patti Vande from Manitoba on it as well as having Penny Ryan from a entirely different BC team that the CCA moved to Linda Moore's team. Three of the teams for 1988 Olympic trials were MADE UP BY THE CCA.
The 2006 gold medalists in Turin had 3 from Newfoundland and ..... wait for it ...... Russ Howard from New Brunswick.
1988 is a long time ago and, in case you haven't noticed, that was the first and the last time that the CCA tried to put together teams.
When Russ Howard joined Gushue in 2006, it was not a CCA decision. After Gushue's team qualified for the Olympic trials, the team decided to bring on Russ Howard as 5th man.
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| 03-12-15 09:47AM |
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murphyj87
Swing Artist
Registered: Jan 2007
Location: Dartmouth, NS
Posts: 207 |
quote:
Originally posted by dbsdbs
1988 is a long time ago and, in case you haven't noticed, that was the first and the last time that the CCA tried to put together teams.
Yet it happened, and when the CCA team leader makes a change, it is done through the team coach,but it comes from the team leader.
quote:
When Russ Howard joined Gushue in 2006, it was not a CCA decision. After Gushue's team qualified for the Olympic trials, the team decided to bring on Russ Howard as 5th man.
How much would you bet that it wasn't approved by Jimmy Waite or Warren first?
Last edited by murphyj87 on 03-12-15 at 09:50AM
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| 03-12-15 02:41PM |
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nom de broom
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Jan 2012
Location:
Posts: 84 |
The symptom is being confused with the cause. It's not that the complete snafu of the HPP program is an initiative (there are others) where one would remark: "This sort of thing makes the USCA look like an unprofessional NGB."
It's that the USCA is an unprofessional NGB to begin with. The complete snafu that is the HPP program (and other initiatives that are equally ill-conceived and equally ill-executed) are an inevitable result of this situation.
For more than several years now, it has been clear to me that the core issue with effective growth and development of the sport (whether at the club or HPP level) is that you can't get the talent and experience you need to run a professional NGB of a major sport in Stevens Point, WI. You can't get it to move to Stevens Point WI either.
People say dump Derek Brown. People say dump Rick Patzke. Okay, fine. But replace them with who? Someone "better" (whatever that means)? Sure. But the likelihood of "someone better" in the middle of nowhere is nil. This isn't Hollywood and we will not find Roy Hobbs.
The USCA needs to pack up and move. Chicago is ideal IMO, but hell, Minneapolis or even Milwaukee would work. At least in those places, potential candidates would know that if they get kicked to the curb in a couple of years (the Alans and Alices of curling being notoriously hard to please  ) they'd be in a job market where they could actually find another job.
Last edited by nom de broom on 03-12-15 at 02:56PM
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| 03-13-15 10:52AM |
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Brushing
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Feb 2015
Location:
Posts: 25 |
quote:
Originally posted by nom de broom
The symptom is being confused with the cause. It's not that the complete snafu of the HPP program is an initiative (there are others) where one would remark: "This sort of thing makes the USCA look like an unprofessional NGB."
It's that the USCA is an unprofessional NGB to begin with. The complete snafu that is the HPP program (and other initiatives that are equally ill-conceived and equally ill-executed) are an inevitable result of this situation.
For more than several years now, it has been clear to me that the core issue with effective growth and development of the sport (whether at the club or HPP level) is that you can't get the talent and experience you need to run a professional NGB of a major sport in Stevens Point, WI. You can't get it to move to Stevens Point WI either.
People say dump Derek Brown. People say dump Rick Patzke. Okay, fine. But replace them with who? Someone "better" (whatever that means)? Sure. But the likelihood of "someone better" in the middle of nowhere is nil. This isn't Hollywood and we will not find Roy Hobbs.
The USCA needs to pack up and move. Chicago is ideal IMO, but hell, Minneapolis or even Milwaukee would work. At least in those places, potential candidates would know that if they get kicked to the curb in a couple of years (the Alans and Alices of curling being notoriously hard to please ) they'd be in a job market where they could actually find another job.
This is the most sense anyone has made in this thread so far. Of course moving the HQ to a city will also mean moving the salary ranges to be competitive in the new job market. Can't be afraid to pay for talent.
Maybe with the CEO search going on this is the right time for such a maneuver?
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| 03-13-15 11:40AM |
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AlanMacNeill
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 1064 |
quote:
Originally posted by nom de broom
The USCA needs to pack up and move. Chicago is ideal IMO, but hell, Minneapolis or even Milwaukee would work. At least in those places, potential candidates would know that if they get kicked to the curb in a couple of years (the Alans and Alices of curling being notoriously hard to please ) they'd be in a job market where they could actually find another job.
Actually....I'm fairly easy to please...far easier than the USOC...
All I *demand* is for a fair and equitable access to National Championship competition and the possibility of resultant World Representation for all curlers regardless of their level of indenture to any sort of "Performance Program". All that means is that "funded" teams gotta qualify exactly the same as Joe, Bob, Jim, and john from the Wednesday Night league.
Would I *like* Olympic Medals? Sure. Are they *necessary*? Nope, not to me. Give our National Champions access to the best coaches and training facilities we have available, if they want em, and let them play, their way, and I'll bet just as many, perhaps more, medals will come.
I would prefer a different method of allocating our HPP resources, one that doesn't put all the eggs in a small, politically selected, basket. However, that's a question of style and method.
I'd *love* to see an actual National Curling League of some reasonable sort...but I realize that's a pipe dream.
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