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08-11-15 01:06AM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: May 2009
Location: Winfield and Richmond
Posts: 49

BC Men's Bonspiel Tour Pilot Project

I know many of the BC curlers who visit this site are aware of the Curl BC Region 11 Men's Bonspiel Tour that I've been administering in the Lower Mainland for the past seven seasons. For those of you not familiar with it, see the page on the Curl BC website at www.curlbc.ca/competitions/region-1...-bonspiel-tour/

The Tour is designed to provide a competitive circuit for club curlers who aren't playing in or qualifying in playdowns. Our eligibility rules are similar to those for the Travellers, formerly Dominion, Curling Club Championship.

For some time, I've been interested in having something like this across the province, culminating in a season-ending BC bonspiel tour championship. I'm now working with the Curl BC office on a pilot project, hoping to have two teams from the Island and two teams for the Thompson-Okanagan qualify to take part in the Region 11 Men's Bonspiel Tour Championship in late March at Cloverdale. We're not trying to exclude the North and Kootenays with this, just trying to see if we can first make a pilot project work with the two other regions where it's most likely to be viable.

The Island and Thompson-Okanagan teams would qualify for the Cloverdale event based on tour points earned at bonspiels in their respective areas. They would join 12 teams from Region 11 to create what would hopefully be the first of many BC bonspiel tour championships.

Right now, I'm searching for key folks on the Island and in the Thompson-Okanagan who are willing to volunteer some time in an effort to organize and promote this happening. Here's what I see those folks doing:

- Contact clubs to confirm their commitment to having their men's bonspiel take part in this pilot project

- Compile the schedule of men's bonspiels taking part and send out information on this schedule to clubs and curlers

- Promote the project through posters, email communications, phone calls, etc.

- Contact clubs to get results from their men's bonspiels, compile the regional points standings of teams participating in the designated bonspiels, and circulate the points standings to clubs and curlers

As the main organizer for the Region 11 Men's Bonspiel Tour, I would be available to guide and assist the regional organizers from the Thompson/Okanagan and Vancouver Island.

If you are interested in helping out or would like more information, please email me at region11tour@gmail.com or call me at 778-317-1071.

Thanks,

Richard Brower

Last edited by Tour Guide on 08-11-15 at 07:54PM

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08-11-15 07:26PM
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alex
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Registered: Sep 2011
Location: Quesnel
Posts: 420

Good luck. Thanks for your hard work. It is appreciated even by people in the boonies.

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08-11-15 07:47PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: May 2009
Location: Winfield and Richmond
Posts: 49

Thanks, Alex. I remember competing against you in the late 1980s and early 1990s in Williams Lake when I lived there. I used to curl in league play with your friend Brian Purdy. Down the road, if this works out, perhaps the winner of the Kelly Cup each year should qualify for the BC men's bonspiel championship?

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08-11-15 10:11PM
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Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
Posts: 2340

Sorry to put a damper on this thread. But can someone explain why Curl BC is supporting this tour AND a Jr tour but continues to ignore competitive adults and the struggling events in our province.

If there is money and other support available to these tours then Curl BC should also be doing the same for the LARGEST group of dues paying curlers.

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08-17-15 04:38PM
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hog tosser
Knee-Slider

 

Registered: May 2011
Location: Richmond, B.C.
Posts: 8

yeah, i think i might be with jamcam on this one. I do appreciate the Region 11 tour, but shouldn't our provincial curling operations be supporting those who ARE looking for higher profile competition first?? CurlBC and curling in BC is just in a tough go right now.

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08-19-15 03:31PM
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jamcan
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Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
Posts: 2340

quote:
Originally posted by hog tosser
yeah, i think i might be with jamcam on this one. I do appreciate the Region 11 tour, but shouldn't our provincial curling operations be supporting those who ARE looking for higher profile competition first?? CurlBC and curling in BC is just in a tough go right now.


And FTR if Curl bc tells you no one wants to run a bc tour that's incorrect. I've offered to do it (easier than you think, a simple spreadsheet and a laptop is enough to run it) but only on the condition that from year one there's a provincial berth awarded to the top team on the tour. A bc tour would be meaningless and unsupported otherwise.

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08-20-15 02:07AM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: May 2009
Location: Winfield and Richmond
Posts: 49

I don't want to get into a lengthy discussion/argument here about this proposal, as I am working on behalf of Curl BC. For the record though, I would like it known that the Region 11 Men's Bonspiel Tour has run for seven seasons without any financial subsidy from Curl BC. We've been able to do it with clubs making a financial contribution to be part of the tour and with some sponsorships obtained by Darcy Heisler.

It is also public knowledge that I made a proposal to Curl BC a few years ago for a BC men's cashspiel tour that would include a team earning a berth in the BC men's championship. I still like the concept, although it is not endorsed by all competitive curlers. I envision a team qualifying on a points system, not a tour championship route.

I do understand the overlap here with the Travelers Curling Club Championship (what happened to Schneider's post about this?), but there are some different goals. The Travelers, BC Club Challenge events and Pacific International Cup all work to support men's and women's club league play. I came up with the Region 11 Men's Bonspiel Tour as a way to support Lower Mainland club bonspiels. Many of the same curlers in both, but not quite the same thing.

I also have extensive playing experience in the Mainland Club Challenge and PIC, and have been fortunate enough to represent BC at what was then the Dominion Curling Club Championship in 2012. Can't say enough good things about these events.

Travelers, through a deal Dominion made prior to being bought out, is committed to the Curling Club Championship until 2018, I believe. I was quite taken back by how much Dominion put into the national event I attended in 2012, with 28 teams from around Canada having most of their expenses covered to take part and treated like royalty during the event.

I wouldn't be shocked if Travelers didn't renew past 2018, due to the expense, which is incentive for me to pursue the BC bonspiel tour concept in the hope of providing club-level curlers with something to play for. I also believe the bar is so high now at the Brier level that playdowns curling is something many teams will continue to shy away from.

I understand that the BC bonspiel tour proposal may strike out, but I'm not afraid of failure if others in the BC curling world don't share my vision. I am thankful that Curl BC has given me the opportunity to try it out.

Richard Brower

Last edited by Tour Guide on 08-20-15 at 03:54AM

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08-22-15 03:27PM
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jamcan
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Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
Posts: 2340

Richard, no one is against your tour or the Jr. tour Jim Cotter is running on behalf of Curl BC. They are both worthy and laudable efforts.

And, if you recall, I submitted a proposal to operate a tour as well, prior to yours, as a part of the original 5 Region Idea. It only asked for a provincial berth and any non-financial support Curl BC could provide. In short-there was little to no cost for Curl BC to incur.

My question remains; Why, when the 3 major curling powers in Canada (AB, SK and Man) all have tours that: award berths, help athlete development and support the events and the host clubs within their provinces, isn't Curl BC following suit?

These provinces recognize the value of the tours, its time we did as well. Before the few remaining events we have disappear.

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08-22-15 05:02PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: May 2009
Location: Winfield and Richmond
Posts: 49

Jamie:

My sense is the competitions committee wanted to see that the BC tour was up and working before awarding a BC men's berth. This is what happened in Saskatchewan, where the tour was operating and then later got the berth. Sort of a Catch-22 situation in my mind, as I don't see an organized BC Tour, complete with a tour championship, happening at this point without a BC men's berth.

I'd like to see some sort of tour that included second-tier cash spiels as part of the BC tour, making it more accessible for less-experienced teams. Not all playdowns curlers buy into that kind of tour that awards a BC men's berth, if I were to go by the feedback I got.

The CTRS berth to the BC men's championship has almost become a BC tour berth now with few teams playing out of province. Pierce went to a last-minute spiel out of province last season in order to get that berth. Other than Jim Cotter, who was already in, I don't think anyone else played out of province.

I now have one person interested in helping out with organzing the Island bonspiel tour. Still looking for someone from the Thompson/Okanagan. Know anyone?

Richard

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08-23-15 02:11AM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Feb 2014
Location:
Posts: 17

Baier, Pierce, and Dezura played in events out of province. Pierce and Dezura got significant points from these events as well, but both were the top two teams anyway if only BC events counted. With two CTRS spots next year, this wouldn't change anything if the same scenario occurred again. (Cotter had a bye already)

Also, I am completely against the idea of having second tier events for a tour that would give a provincial berth. Make it a separate tour, but have an event during the year that invites the top second tier teams to play in a championship event (akin to a tour championship with the competitive teams). The Alberta Peace Region does this with the Prairie Showdown where they invite 3 local teams to play against the big boys, however this compares apples to oranges. Another thing to note is that all of the Peace Tour cashspiels have a challenge division for those teams who might not quite be there yet so they can still be competitive, but not be afraid of the top teams.

Also, it is tough when fewer teams are trying to be competitive, and this is what killed the West Coast Classic. We as locals aren't supporting our own cashspiels enough and this is causing them to bite the dust. The only way a BC tour works is to have another carrot like a tour championship at the end of the season. I don't believe provincial berths will change anything because the top teams will still be on top getting their byes, and lesser teams will quickly realize this and entries won't improve. The only side effect is that this allows more local teams to enter playdowns to have a better chance at provincials as more top teams will already have their berths.

Please don't try to mix club curling with competitive curling. The cashspiels and playdowns are open entry for a reason. Enter them and learn how to play with the bigger boys there if you really want to take it to the next level, but don't take provincial spots away from teams who deserve them.

I love the concept of the region 11 tour and the prospect of expansion, as I think it promotes men's bonspiels in the regions and allows people to meet more curlers while still giving it your all. These events are great for the club curlers, and I hope to see it grow.

I wish you all the luck with organizing this.

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08-23-15 10:50PM
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Tour Guide
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: May 2009
Location: Winfield and Richmond
Posts: 49

Daniel:

Thanks for your post. When I originally put together a proposal for a BC cash spiel tour, I had a tour championship as part of it with teams qualifying to play for a BC men's berth. My concern would be trying to run a tour championship with qualifying teams from around the province and getting them to take part. I'm not sure how many would be keen to travel a fair distance, say from the Kootenays to the Lower Mainland, in order to participate in a tour championship like that. Especially if there is no funding for them to travel, etc.

Richard

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08-24-15 01:28AM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Apr 2007
Location:
Posts: 83

I don't see the difference between what the dominion already offers BC from what a tour is doing everyone travels to the lower mainland for a playoff twice now?

Spiels in the interior and kootenays are fewer and far between in the lower mainland so good luck trying to get the same teams playing from town to town.

I think this is another lets throw money at something that already exists and not research out past to see what works.

Teams year after year complain about travelling in winter to drive so why now do we think they will for a tour that offers no cash prizes no provincial berth and no real point.

More power to you this is a big province not a zone 11.

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08-24-15 11:59PM
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JustAnotherHack
Swing Artist

 

Registered: Dec 2012
Location: BC, Ontario (and a few other places too...)
Posts: 268

I'm a bit late to the party (been on the road) but a few points that I think folks are missing about this proposed tour.

One... it's not costing Curl BC anything other than a bit of support. The money is being kicked in by the bonspiels (and it's not much) to cover the basic costs for the championship and travel for the teams that may travel from the interior or the island.

So jump off that bandwagon... the folks who are in the spiels are the ones contributing.

Two... the largest group of dues paying curlers in the province are not "competitive" curlers entering cashspiels and playdowns. They are the folks in the various club and commercial leagues. They are the folks who go to all these club spiels with nothing on the line but a plaque/trophy and a bit of cash. How many dues paying curlers are in a typical club that enter a men's/women's/mixed playdown? If you're trying to tell me that it's a majority of dues paying curlers, I'm thinking your math may be a bit off.

Now I can go on a giant rant about how money is allocated and why club curlers feel like their getting screwed by Curl BC (or other association of your choice) and getting little for their dues. I won't though... but please, stop thinking that competitive curlers are the ones carrying the freight when it comes to the dues going to any association. They're not.

As for the proposed expansion of the Region 11-style tour... I hope it gets off the ground. It has given teams the incentive to play in other club spiels, allowed teams that aren't ready for cashspiels a chance to gain some experience (without being dead money), and has helped a few teams to at least be willing to try to move up and participate in those cashspiels and playdowns. And I'd like to think it may help clubs work together in planning bonspiels to maximize participation between clubs.

The interior will have it tougher than the island with the distances involved (even though I think that the Thompson-Okanagan isn't completely horrible). But if we don't try... well does anyone else have any bright ideas?

And remember, this isn't geared towards the teams playing in provincials, but to those club teams that want to get better or play competitively, but not interested in playdowns and provincials. Yet.

I look at this as another idea to get curlers at least thinking of playing outside of their club and move towards competitive curling. The Junior tour is a great idea for the juvenile and junior curlers to give them that needed experience. This is a good idea for teams not interested in playing the cashspiels.

One other point to my ramble... I like the idea of a BC Tour as well, but how would this change what teams are currently getting provincial spots via the WCT events? Maybe if the Region 11 style events gain some traction around the province then you can think about evolving it into a proper BC Tour?

But right now what would the goal of a BC Tour event be and what would it accomplish that isn't happening with the current WCT events?

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08-25-15 05:00PM
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jamcan
Super Rockchucker

 

Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
Posts: 2340

Hack: just to clarify, when I wrote largest group I was referring to the adult competitors in relation to the number of juniors.

And I've already made my points about the benefits of a bc tour but to answer your question specifically in comparison g it to the WCT the answers are: a tour that focuses on local bc events and is separate from the CTRS rankings or the WCT helps bc teams plus the events and host clubs. The reasons should be obvious to all.

It's also worth noting that once again, there is less overall money and fewer events on this year's WCT schedule. There can be many reasons for this but a look at some of the provincial tour sites shows local events that aren't registering to be part of the WCT.

If so, the question begs why?

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08-25-15 09:22PM
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jamcan
Super Rockchucker

 

Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
Posts: 2340

quote:
Originally posted by jamcan
Hack: just to clarify, when I wrote largest group I was referring to the adult competitors in relation to the number of juniors.

And I've already made my points about the benefits of a bc tour but to answer your question specifically in comparison g it to the WCT the answers are: a tour that focuses on local bc events and is separate from the CTRS rankings or the WCT helps bc teams plus the events and host clubs. The reasons should be obvious to all.

Nor would a bc tour cost curl bc anything. Both Richard and myself have volunteered in the past to run a tour, asking only for a provincial berth to stimulate event and player interest and participation. In both cases we were turned down yet, without hesitation Curl BC gave Jim Cotter ' s Jr. Tour instant provincial berths. Why the kids and not also the adults?

It's also worth noting that once again, there is less overall money and fewer events on this year's WCT schedule. There can be many reasons for this but a look at some of the provincial tour sites shows local events that aren't registering to be part of the WCT.

If so, the question begs why?

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09-18-15 02:30AM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: May 2009
Location: Winfield and Richmond
Posts: 49

Just want to post an update on things, as we now have tour coordinators in place on Vancouver Island and in the Thompson-Okanagan. They are working on confirming bonspiels in their areas that will be part of their respective regional tours.

You can contact Nick Coleman in Victoria at nickcoleman9 at gmail.com and Brian Schreiner in the Thompson-Okanagan at benhogan at telus.net. Like me, I think Brian might be a golf keener as well as a curling keener!

The Curl BC website will be updated shortly to include information on all three tours, each with its own web page.

Looking forward to the first-ever BC Bonspiel Tours Championship, Mar. 18-20 at Cloverdale CC. Maybe Jamcan could hold the broom while Hogginsheets throws the opening ceremonial rock? I'll volunteer to sweep!

Richard Brower

Last edited by Tour Guide on 09-18-15 at 02:38AM

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09-18-15 01:12PM
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Tour Guide
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: May 2009
Location: Winfield and Richmond
Posts: 49

Boy, making a comment like that could be dangerous stuff on this site!

Good luck to you and Jamcan this weekend at Cloverdale.

Last edited by Tour Guide on 09-18-15 at 01:52PM

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09-26-15 06:31PM
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jamcan
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Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
Posts: 2340

Thanks for the good wishes Richard. As the results showed here on CZ we had a very good spiel and we're looking forward to the remainder of our season.

However, I have a question directed towards you and Just Another Hack:

Why weren't you two gentlemen competing in the Valley Cash last week?

Better yet, when a long established cashspiel in Vernon is barely able to field twelve teams for its men's side and both of you are still, to a degree, competing; Why aren't you helping this event stay afloat?

I'm sure you two both have solid, legitimate reasons for not entering these events. But let me ask you this: If we had a competitive tour in our province that rewarded players and teams for participating do you honestly think local BC events would be struggling for teams as they are?

Richard I have no qualms with you working on your Region 11 tour or trying to create a tour for the club spiels. I've stated this, I think pretty clearly, in my posts on this thread so perhaps the sarcasm about throwing an honourary first stone is a little unwarranted. Besides I'm not long enough in the tooth for that just yet.

However I do want to revisit my point about a BC tour for competitive events. JAH: you wanted to know what benefits such a men's and ladies tour would be? Well, lets consider what Curl BC feels a Jr. Tour can accomplish. Just click here for their own take on it:

http://www.curlbc.ca/bcjct/

Does that not read familiar? So again the question begs; If Curl BC is willing to instantly create a BC Jr. Tour as a recognized, bona fide way to grow the number of teams/curlers, support the host clubs and increase the number of events then why the hell are they not doing the same for adult men and women as well?

If they tell you it costs too much money and time that's bull. We have paid staff who's job it is to oversee projects like this. There are established programs of collecting and correlating event data (duh, CTRS) which can easily be adapted to BC. Truth is it can all be done simply on an Excel worksheet. I know because I did something similar-albeit on a more primitive basis-using one. It could even be done on paper if need be.

So I want to know why this isn't being done. And I'll tell you what; I'm not the only one. Candid conversations with curlers, some coaches and a few folks in charge of events over the past two months convey the same feeling: Why is Curl BC continuing to ignore adult competitive curlers in this regard?

No knock to the Jrs. or the recreational players. But the competitive players deserve the same tour from their governing body.

In the words of the immortal Stan Lee'
'nuff said'

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Last edited by jamcan on 09-26-15 at 06:55PM

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09-28-15 12:52AM
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Tour Guide
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: May 2009
Location: Winfield and Richmond
Posts: 49

Jamie:

I usually do play in Cloverdale, but living in Winfield now I haven't thrown a rock yet this year. We get ice in late here and I haven't had the opportunity yet to practice and play with my team at the coast.

Will be on the ice for the first time this season on Monday.

I don't know the ins and outs of the junior cash spiel tour and the BC berth. I do know that as much as you and I and others would like to see a BC men's cash spiel tour with a BC berth on the line, it's not something that would be universally supported by competitive curlers. Perhaps not the easiest idea to introduce for Curl BC.

If you want to seriously push the concept, I'd be willing to brainstorm with you on how to make it come about. Call me on my cell phone. It took me two attempts to get the BC bonspiel tours concept going, so perhaps another shot at the BC cash spiel tour concept would be warranted.

Don't take offence about holding the broom for Steve when he throws the ceremonial open rock. I wrote the comment for a good-natured giggle, given Steve's concerns about the BC men's bonspiel tours championship. As his third, you would be the natural guy to hold the broom for him!

Richard

Last edited by Tour Guide on 09-28-15 at 12:57AM

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09-28-15 02:17AM
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jamcan
Super Rockchucker

 

Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
Posts: 2340

Normally I would not take issue with you Richard but this time is an exception. First, at 54 I hadn't been on the ice and went and played in Cloverdale with my team and supported a BC spiel.

Second. There might not be ice in Winfield, but it's been available in Vernon for you to throw on since Sept 20 and vernon is no more than 20 minutes from Winfield. So you would've had 2 weeks to throw before playing in the Vernon Cash. While your team on the coast has multiple clubs to practice on. So thanks for doing nothing to help support our spiel while our ice staff comes down to your club and helps install your ice.

3rd- you're dead wrong. BC curlers would support a provincial tour contrary to what you wrote. In fact, I would love to know what gave you this bizarre idea that they wouldn't. Everyone I speak with are 100% behind this idea. I challenge you to name one BC competitive curler who is against the idea of a bc tour.

I respect what you're trying to do for recreational curlers Richard. But I think you're wrong about Competitive play.

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09-29-15 11:18PM
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Tour Guide
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: May 2009
Location: Winfield and Richmond
Posts: 49

Jamie:

I will point you to Dwenzek's post above for an example of a competitive curler not wanting to give a BC men's berth to a BC cash spiel circuit. I have also had opposition to this idea, when I proposed it, emailed to me. I'm not comfortable naming someone here, but I had a curler who had been in a BC men's championship final game email me saying he was opposed to a berth going to a tour with "B" level events.

I think the key point here is what are the minimum standards a cash spiel would have to meet in order to be part of the BC tour. When you get down to the details such as that, then there are some diverging opinions. Especially when you consider small non-WCT events such as Quesnel, for example.

The other key thing to resolve here is do you just give a BC men's berth to the top point-getting team on the BC circuit or do you qualify a certain number of teams for a tour championship where the berth is up for grabs?

Richard

P.S. Isn't it up to me and my team to decide which events to play according to what works best for us and our lives? Be respectful, please!

Last edited by Tour Guide on 09-30-15 at 10:34PM

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10-01-15 02:45AM
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JustAnotherHack
Swing Artist

 

Registered: Dec 2012
Location: BC, Ontario (and a few other places too...)
Posts: 268

quote:
Originally posted by jamcan

However, I have a question directed towards you and Just Another Hack:

Why weren't you two gentlemen competing in the Valley Cash last week?



I'll give you my excuse... I've switched to coaching and that's turned into a time sink that I'm enjoying, but has taken me off the ice for the most part (in terms of throwing rocks anyways). I'm a so-so curler, but I'm probably a better coach, so hopefully I can encourage the next generation of curlers to fill the rink and maybe try their hand at competitive curling.

You know, I'd like to see the Region 11 type events merge with the more competitive cash spiels to form a proper BC tour that could result in a berth (or two) to provincials. I'd have to kick it around in my head a bit (which I don't have much room in these days) on how to make it work though. There are two somewhat competing interests when it comes to those events as you have more socially oriented curlers as well as the competitive ones. How to encourage both to get involved without alienating one or the other is a trick I haven't quite figured out.

And then there is the lack of sponsorship... if you're going to run a tour that is oriented to developing competitive curling in BC, a financial sponsor is needed to kick in the prize money to add to the incentive to play.

Curling in BC seems to be so far behind in so many ways that I don't even know where to start... a proper tour for all types of curlers, decent sponsors, things like web casting of events (heck, how many clubs even have cameras?), and decent outreach to the public (especially juniors)... we seem to be always behind. The Jr. Tour is a step in the right direction for the kids, but you're right, where do they go after that?

Anyway, it's late, I need sleep but I like to bounce around some ideas later and see what we can come up with. When we're being productive and not finger pointing, I think we may be able to at least come up with a few ideas on what we can do for the future.

__________________
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Last edited by JustAnotherHack on 10-01-15 at 03:12AM

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