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01-04-12 11:01PM
biterbar is offline Click Here to See the Profile for biterbar Click here to Send biterbar a Private Message Find more posts by biterbar Add biterbar to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
biterbar
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Keeping the Club in OCA Teams

quote:
Originally posted by Guest

Do you have a source on this Nicklaus - Palmer story because it sounds more like an urban myth?



The fact of the matter is that Arnie's Army were mercyless in their taunting of "Fat Jack" throughout the early years. They saw themselves as the blue collar supporters of their blue collar hero and Nicklaus was the overweight brat born with a silver spoon. While this exact exchange may not have happened, Palmer was said to have asked for silence to his supporters who were probed to scream epithets while Jack was putting.

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01-05-12 08:48AM
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I have read several stories about Nickalus and Palmer duels and have yet to read one where Palmer addresses the crowd about their behaviour towards Nicklaus.

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01-05-12 11:37AM
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The problem with playdown entries dropping is two things:

1) People don't play out of club as much anymore, playdown or bonspiel. New curlers may not be aware of how much fun some spiels can be. It may help for clubs to start pushing the idea of going out and playing a spiel or two a year. I have no idea how much it'll help, but it can't hurt.

2) Intimidation: People who have only ever played in-club equate a playdown of any caliber to what they'd see on TV. In reality a lot of them are capable of winning a patch in something like the Challenge. The OCA needs to do a better job of making the development playdowns like the Challenge more visible to the average club player that might actually play in it. [/B][/QUOTE]

Duct:
You can't talk about declining numbers without identifying the impact of the "parachute era" of competition. Twenty years ago, curlers at the regional level tended to stick to their own clubs and compete with their own club teams as opposed to mixing and matching the best of the best. You then had four good teams attending zone competitions. Now the best players of these four teams are joining forces and creating one "great" team, leaving the other 12 curlers not bothering with their "donation" where before they felt they had a chance of winning. On top of that, you have players from all over the province doing that at the elite level and dropping into zones they haven't even visited, let alone lived in (eg: Toronto based teams playing in the teen-zones, etc, etc). The math becomes simple: Where you once had 12-16 teams, you now have four or five. While this should be accepted for events like Men's, I think the OCA has to look at how the current era's mentality has led to a deterrant of participation and at least try a more club oriented (ala old school) series of competitions by either using the current ones or inventing new ones.

JH

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01-05-12 12:14PM
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Marc Bernard
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How many "super teams"/parachuters are there at the Challenge or even Colts zones? Not too many around here (zone 12).

The drop in participation may be more a cause of a general drop in membership. The more competitive players seem to be younger, and looking around our Tuesday night men's league there don't seem to be many players under 50.

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01-05-12 12:59PM
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This is ridiculous. The generalization that parachuting teams are ruining Colts, Challenge, Dominion, etc, you'll need to name some names.

All curling events are down. I don't think entries in the Prize and Club spiels are down too because of parachuting teams. It's an across the board issue with teams not playing outside the club. Period.

Want to fix the problem? This is what you could do:

1. Club advertises, encourages and even creates incentives to players who enter playdowns. Create the internal club pride by recognizing the teams.

2. Club cover entry costs, I've been a member of clubs that would cover entries into playdowns. If you're a full dues, full playing member, the club would cover the costs.

3. Recruit players/teams to enter these playdowns, and promote these events within the clubs.

Playdowns are like anything else, passive promotion often doesn't generate results. You need to go out and sell the event and promote it within your organization. The OCA "could" do it, but in reality we could all do a better job. The organization is stretched thin with volunteers already doing a lot of work, and if we'd each do our own part at our clubs, we could increase playdown entries too.

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01-05-12 02:57PM
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J-Ho
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quote:
Originally posted by Gerry
This is ridiculous. The generalization that parachuting teams are ruining Colts, Challenge, Dominion, etc, you'll need to name some names.

All curling events are down. I don't think entries in the Prize and Club spiels are down too because of parachuting teams. It's an across the board issue with teams not playing outside the club. Period.

Want to fix the problem? This is what you could do:


You and Marc are missing my point Gerry. It's not the teams themselves, it's the overall philosophy. Twenty years plus ago, you never really had (outside of elite Ontario teams) curlers from different geographics come together to form teams. Ottawa curlers rarely would consider forming a team with players from Toronto, etc, etc, etc. Similarly, and more importantly on a smaller regional scale, a Peterborough curler wouldn't curl with a curler from Bobcaygeon, etc,. Now, both are commonplace. Hence my point from earlier posts. Is this wrong? Of course not but provincial teams parachuting into "weaker" zones and good zone players from four different base clubs coming together to form one team instead of four different ones has a cost. That cost is the disappearance of of the mediocre curler who would win a badge once in a while, not playing because now they never will have a chance to win! No one has done anything wrong, but OCA has to look at addressing this as a problem. Some club based events might do it. If you want to leave Colts etc then so be it, but this IS the problem (if not the only one, then a big part of it!) with declining participation competitively and it needs fixing.

JH

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01-05-12 03:03PM
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quote:
Originally posted by J-Ho
That cost is the disappearance of of the mediocre curler who would win a badge once in a while, not playing because now they never will have a chance to win! JH


So you want to see more mediocre curlers participating in OCA events

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01-05-12 04:29PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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Our Sunday Sinners league is hurting too, must be from the parachuters.

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01-05-12 05:05PM
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Canadave
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest


So you want to see more mediocre curlers participating in OCA events



Yes...Why not? You have a problem with some wishful "mediocre curlers" hoping for a good weekend and getting their first badge?

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01-05-12 05:20PM
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duct_tape
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quote:
Originally posted by J-Ho
Duct:
You can't talk about declining numbers without identifying the impact of the "parachute era" of competition. Twenty years ago, curlers at the regional level tended to stick to their own clubs and compete with their own club teams as opposed to mixing and matching the best of the best. You then had four good teams attending zone competitions. Now the best players of these four teams are joining forces and creating one "great" team, leaving the other 12 curlers not bothering with their "donation" where before they felt they had a chance of winning. On top of that, you have players from all over the province doing that at the elite level and dropping into zones they haven't even visited, let alone lived in (eg: Toronto based teams playing in the teen-zones, etc, etc). The math becomes simple: Where you once had 12-16 teams, you now have four or five. While this should be accepted for events like Men's, I think the OCA has to look at how the current era's mentality has led to a deterrant of participation and at least try a more club oriented (ala old school) series of competitions by either using the current ones or inventing new ones.

JH



I personally have no issues at all with "Parachuting" teams, especially in the men's playdowns.

That playdown is there to determine the best team in Ontario to represent us on the Canadian and possibly international stage. Eliminating parachuting will pretty well completely destroy our ability to compete with other strong provinces on the national stage. Four guys from any club are not going to compete against Martin, Stoughton, McEwen, etc... You have to pick and choose the best of the best to compete at that level.

As far as the lesser playdowns go... Since 2006 I personally have won the Colts (2009), two Silver Tankards (2006, 2009) and was runner up in the Silver Tankard in 2010. All of these teams were totally made up of players that regularly play at the Milton Curling Club.... So don't tell me club teams aren't capable of winning that tier of competition. Likewise something like the Fairfield Mariott is also very winnable by club teams.

There may be a prevailing attitude out there that parachuting "superteams" exist in all levels of playdowns. Realisically outside of the Men's, they don't.

The OCA needs to do a better job of communication to let good curlers who don't play competitively know that these events are suitable for them, and they should get out and try them.

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01-05-12 05:24PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Canadave
Yes...Why not? You have a problem with some wishful "mediocre curlers" hoping for a good weekend and getting their first badge?

Thinking of yourself as a "medicore" curler and "hoping" for a good weekend is not the best mindset to have when you enter a competition.


mediocre, adj
1. of only ordinary or moderate quality; neither good nor bad; barely adequate: The car gets only mediocre mileage, but it's fun to drive. Synonyms: undistinguished, commonplace, pedestrian, everyday; run-of-the-mill. Antonyms: extraordinary, superior, uncommon, incomparable.

2. not satisfactory; poor; inferior: Mediocre construction makes that building dangerous. Synonyms: meager, low-quality, second-rate; so-so. Antonyms: excellent, superior.

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01-05-12 06:01PM
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Gerry
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I think labeling these players one way or another is dangerous and it doesn't matter anyways. Yes we want more participation and there's a lot of good quality players who could win a zone badge and even make a run at Provincials in a lot of these secondary provincials.

It's just a matter of getting them out playing, to give it a shot. Problem is a lot of these good players have other priorities as well, and they just don't care to spend their weekends out spieling and are happy to play their 1-2 nights a week in league.

Think of it this way, there was a women's Scotties zone in Toronto this year, that had a large number of entries and because of that, they qualified 5 teams to the regionals due to some being added fill teams for other zones.

There was actually grumbling and complaining from a few of these teams because they only entered the Scotties zones to practice for Intermediates and Seniors.

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01-05-12 06:23PM
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J-Ho
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OK, just so we're all clear about a few things:

1) I have no problem with anybody curling with anybody. Pick a club and have-ater!

2) My comments have never been or will be about watering down competition so that club based teams have a better shot at winning a provincial or eliminating teams that wish to parachute.

3) My comments have been made to identify what has happened as a result of parachute and all-star team based mentality. I know this for a fact because I have witnessed this first hand in the areas I have curled in over the past twenty years or so. I know many people who used to live for OCA events that no longer curl in OCA events because of this. If you can honestly not at least agree with me that this has had some impact at the participatory level, then I guarantee you the problem of low numbers at the zone level in competitive events will never be fixed!

JH

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01-05-12 07:43PM
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Guest
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quote:
Originally posted by J-Ho
OK, just so we're all clear about a few things:

3) My comments have been made to identify what has happened as a result of parachute and all-star team based mentality. I know this for a fact because I have witnessed this first hand in the areas I have curled in over the past twenty years or so. I know many people who used to live for OCA events that no longer curl in OCA events because of this. If you can honestly not at least agree with me that this has had some impact at the participatory level, then I guarantee you the problem of low numbers at the zone level in competitive events will never be fixed!

JH



So basically what you are saying is you are right and everyone with a different opinion is wrong.

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01-05-12 09:22PM
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J-Ho
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest


So basically what you are saying is you are right and everyone with a different opinion is wrong.



lol...nice try!

JH

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01-27-12 11:14AM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Sep 2011
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In the old days (back before Direct Entry to zones), the club playdowns to enter zones was a big deal. Many 'club' teams entered because they wanted the bragging rights that went along with winning 'the club championship on the path to the Tankard and Brier'.
Heck in Junior we had a seven team club playoff for the two spots at zones, and the men's club playdowns were a big event that went over a weekend and had lots of people come to watch.
There was pride in winning this club championship and then representing your club at the zones. Everyone in the club knew who was going to the zones and there was a lot of interest generated.
So what if you got your head bashed in at the zones, you had already won something before you had to spend money and drive to 'bucktussle for the zones'. In fact, the club usually had a small entry for the club playdowns and then used that money to subsidize your zone entry. And if you won zones, everyone in your club was on board and excited about your trip to regionals.

Now, the club curlers are a long way from the zones. There is no club playdown and no club involvement. No one knows who enters the zones from their club if anyone does. The zone attendance is so poor that zones even merge their location playdowns and the travel distances get even more significant (several hours away).

The advent of larger money and a better tour is part of the decline in entries, but I think the lack of in-club involvement is even more responsible.

I'm not advocating a return to the old days, although I'd love to go back to that playing weight but I do think we need to better understand all of the reasons for what has happened before we can even consider a solution.

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12-15-14 09:23AM
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AlanMacNeill
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Registered: Sep 2011
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quote:
Originally posted by SendInTheClowns


This would be a lot more then some minor checking up. How do you define being a regular member? Listed on a team lineup? How many games can they miss? Will you be there for the OCA taking attendance each week?



Admittedly, this isn't Canadian...however...it may shine some light on how it "can be done".

Last season, there was some drama in the GNCC regional Club Nationals playdowns (The US event that is "Team members must be dues playing league members of the same club" that doesn't lead to anything worldly).

A player on one of the teams was challenged as not being a "League Member" of the club he was representing, as he was classified as a "Social" member, and only played in one of the "Morning leagues", which was not a competitive league so much as pick up games with a vaguely defined ladder concept occurring during a scheduled weekly timeslot.

The player was ruled to be a league playing member for purposes of the eligibility rule and allowed to compete, on the grounds that the weekly play he did was called a "League" by the Club, and did have a core of consistent membership playing on a scheduled basis.

Any rule created can and will be stretched to the limit by edge cases, not even necessarily deliberately...it just happens.

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Curling Scores

M: USA Curling Junior National Championships
Eau Claire, WI
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: M5 -- Wed, Mar 27 -- 7:00pm CT
Fitzgerald Final
Guentzel (10) Watch Live Curling!
Cenzalli Final
Rose (10) Watch Live Curling!
Church Final
Lannoye (10) Watch Live Curling!
Hebert Final
Brenden (9) Watch Live Curling!
W: USA Curling Junior National Championships
Eau Claire, WI
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: W4 -- Wed, Mar 27 -- 2:00pm CT
Scheel Final
Berg (9) Watch Live Curling!
Pekowitz Final
Berg (9) Watch Live Curling!
Schapman Final
Johnson (10) Watch Live Curling!
Giroux 12  Final
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M: Canadian Mixed Doubles Curling Championship
Fredericton, NB
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: CF -- Fri, Mar 22 -- 1:00pm AT
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Walk/Muyr (8) Watch Live Curling!
M: Swiss Junior Championships
Thun, SUI
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: CF2 -- Sun, Mar 24 -- 3:00am ET
Caccivio Final
Brauchli 12  (EE)
Dryburgh Final
Ringgenberg (9)
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Draw: CF2 -- Sun, Mar 24 -- 9:00am CET
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W: NWTCA Curling Club Championships
Fort Smith, NT
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Draw: 3 -- Sat, Mar 23 -- 11:00am MT
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M: NWTCA Curling Club Championships
Fort Smith, NT
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