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04-19-09 04:08PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Jan 2006
Location: Mississauga
Posts: 57

The Curling Stone Speedtrap

I'd love to get some feedback about a tool that my brother and I have developed.

It's an instrument that is for use when practicing throwing consistent weight. It consists of three small boxes. Two of these are electronic eyes -- light beams, really -- that sit at the hog line. The third is a box that the curler positions beyond the hog line. It's a display unit that outputs the precise speed of the stone that you've just thrown...to the thousandth of a meter per second.

It's really useful, I find, because I can't find anyone that wants to stand on the ice and read split time after split time for me. Furthermore, it never offers a bad split time because it wasn't paying attention when it needed to start or stop the timer.

Does anyone have an interest in this tool/technology?

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04-19-09 04:35PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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how much is it worth

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04-19-09 04:57PM
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Hitting Paint

 

Registered: Dec 2005
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when did you develop it?

do you know that they have been around for years?

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04-19-09 06:29PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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There's an individual in Quebec that developed one...but it requires that you string all the boxes together with wires...and there are five boxes...and i believe it needs to be plugged in...

Then there's another type that is produced by Brower Timing in Colorado...which is wireless...and battery powered...but it is comprised of five boxes...antenae...tripods...light beams...and it costs about $1800... (I know, because I bought one last year.) And, the goddam thing goes on the fritz too damned often. The same one is being used at a few different curling development centers. There's one in Alberta and I believe Jim Waite might have one, too. He put me in touch with Brower originally.

The Ontario Curling Association has one of the models produced in Quebec...but, when I spoke with them about it, they were unimpresed with its callibration.

Also, both the Quebec-built unit and the Brower units measure back-line to hog or tee-line to hog duration. The thing we've built measures instantaneous speed at the hog (or anywhere else you might want it). As a result, it offers an objective index that is unaffected by any thrower's delivery.

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04-19-09 08:12PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Mar 2008
Location: Winnipeg
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I've used the the speed traps owned by the MCA that have the wires, but I know they also have wireless ones.

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04-19-09 08:24PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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Any idea what type they were? Or how I might find out?

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04-19-09 10:43PM
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Registered: Mar 2006
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I think it would be interesting tool to use. If it's easy to use and set-up. Cost wise what are we talking about?

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04-20-09 12:07AM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Mar 2008
Location: Winnipeg
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quote:
Originally posted by hughmurf
Any idea what type they were? Or how I might find out?


I don't know, but I suggest you contact the MCA general office or the high performance director at mca.hpdirector@curlmanitoba.org.

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04-20-09 06:42AM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:
Originally posted by curler1313


contact the MCA general office or the high performance director at mca.hpdirector@curlmanitoba.org.



Perfect. Thanks for the direction.

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04-20-09 07:04AM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Jan 2006
Location: Mississauga
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quote:
Originally posted by sport.nut
Cost wise what are we talking about?


My interest in building the speedtrap came directly from the fact that the one decent system I could find cost $1800. We did buy it...but began working on developing a more cost effective alternative...specifically for use in curling.

We have sunk about $30k into the development of the speedtrap to this point...and we have a materials cost on each unit of about $100. I haven't sold a single unit yet...in fact, we've only produced a dozen prototypes for testing. My guess is that it will have to be priced at about $200 to make it interesting for curlers and also viable from a cost perspective.

Still...that's a whole lot less than $1800! It gets the device to a point where the average curler can afford one.

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04-20-09 07:15AM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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Location: Mississauga
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quote:
Originally posted by sport.nut
I think it would be interesting tool to use. If it's easy to use and set-up.


A central theme in designing the speedtrap was the idea that it needs to be almost idiot-proof. The system we're designed has only three parts...two bowes that point at each other on the hogline...and a display that sits beyond the hog. It taked a moment to get the hogline boxes pointing at each other properly... but it's really quite easy.

With the Brower system, there are 14 parts to assemble:
four small tripods
two light emmision units
two light reception units
a display unit
a two piece stand for the display unit
antenae for each emmision unit and the display

In my mind, too complex. It takes the experienced user 10 minutes to set it up...and I;d defie you to set it up without instruction and/or guidance.

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04-20-09 09:17AM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Dec 2003
Location:
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Definitely interested - especially at a price point of a couple hundred dollars. One thing you can do with the old speed traps is calibrate your sweepers' split timing skills, which is helpful for games when that's all you have available. Don't know if that can be done with your system. I'd have to think about it.

Regardless of that, the cost and the ease of setup/operation make your system very attractive. What, if anything, do you have to do between shots to reset the trap?

u-s-eh

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04-20-09 09:26AM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Jan 2006
Location: Mississauga
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quote:
Originally posted by u-s-eh
What, if anything, do you have to do between shots to reset the trap?


You don't do anything at all to reset. The system sits, continually waiting for a new signals, i.e., another stone to be thrown thru the trap. The display shows the most recent reading until there is a new reading to display.

There is a 2.5 second delay after a stone passes thru the speedtrap in order erroneous readings from things like feet, brooms and curlers' bodies sliding thru the trap, too. After the 2.5 sec delay, the system goes back into ready-to-read mode...and waits for another stone to pass thru.

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04-20-09 10:25AM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Jan 2006
Location: Mississauga
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quote:
Originally posted by jasper1
how much is it worth


for a guy that can't throw a draw?
PRICELESS...

For everybody else...likely about $200.
Right now I'm just lending them to people...and geting feedback.

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04-20-09 10:29AM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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quote:
Originally posted by deep_freeze
when did you develop it?


We started about this time last year...reviewing existing systems and technology...we designed it between Sept and Dec...and we engineered and built it between Dec and Feb this year...and we`ve been testing and refining them since then.

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04-20-09 10:32AM
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I think $200 for something that's accurate and easy to set up would generate a lot of sales. I know I'd buy one.

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04-20-09 10:42AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dean Gemmell
I think $200 for something that's accurate and easy to set up would generate a lot of sales. I know I'd buy one.


I agree, it would be a fairly easy sell to progressive curlers and even cash strapped clubs at that price.

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04-20-09 10:55AM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Jan 2006
Location: Mississauga
Posts: 57

quote:
Originally posted by u-s-eh
One thing you can do with the old speed traps is calibrate your sweepers' split timing skills, which is helpful for games when that's all you have available. Don't know if that can be done with your system.


This is something that we`re working on. In truth, the system is designed to eliminate some of the faults that are inherent in the split time concept. For instance:

1) with back line to hog splits times (or tee to hog, if you like) there is a great deal of variablility in a thrower`s delivery. sometimes they slide slowly and press...other times they slide too fast and pull the string a bit. this screws up the guys with the stop watches as their readings won`t properly tell them whether or not the stone has been thrown with the right speed.

2) also with split times...the sweepers have to get really good at starting and stopping their watches. If they start or stop only a moment too soon or too late, they will mess up the reading and the clock will provide a reading that will misdirect them. Actually, it becomes a matter of consistency; starting or stopping the clock too early or late is ok iff the sweeper does it exactly the same way every time. When the timer can use her watch consistently the readings can become meaningful and useful.

The speedtrap actually measures the stone`s speed at a set point on the ice. I like using the hog line as that set point because it`s the first point on the ice when a curler must (theoretically) have let go of the stone. And, because the only thing a stone can do after it`s released is decelerate... the speedtrap provides highly precise and consistent measurements of the speed. It`s not affected by a stome being pushed. It`s not affected by a thrower pulling the proverbial string.

We decided that this might be an improvement over the idea of timing the delivery...because it eliminates all of the variability that`s inherent in any curler`s deliver...and instead it focuses on measuring what matters...and that`s the stone`s true speed.

We`re currently testing and developing a conversion algorithm that will allow the user to display an estimate of the split time. This estimate will be based firstly on the actual measured speed...and this will be combined with an average back-line-to-hog split time measured for a stone thrown with a pure delivery on 24-second ice.

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04-20-09 11:05AM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Jan 2006
Location: Mississauga
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quote:
Originally posted by Dean Gemmell
I think $200 for something that's accurate and easy to set up would generate a lot of sales. I know I'd buy one.


Dean...! Good of you to chime in!

I don`t think I have seen you since school-boy curling in Hanover in 1985! I still run Dave Smith on occasion...as he`s a good friend of my brother`s.

Thx for the feedback and input. Consistency, precision, accuracy and ease-of-use have been our driving ideas.

Glad to see you`re still into it. Let me know if you want to test a set...the input of as fine a curler as yourself would be great!

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04-20-09 11:55AM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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i would be interested in testing one

Jim Brackett

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04-20-09 11:59AM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Jan 2006
Location: Mississauga
Posts: 57

quote:
Originally posted by jasper1
i would be interested in testing one

Jim Brackett



Fire me a note...with appropriate coordinates... and I'll see about getting one out to you.

You can get me at hugh.murphy@credoconsulting.ca

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04-20-09 03:24PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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Location: Mississauga
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Here's a picture of the speedtrap in its current form...as simple as it might be. While it's not the pretiest thing in the world...it works like a charm so far!

hughmurf has attached this image:

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04-20-09 03:29PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Jan 2006
Location: Mississauga
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Gee...this thing deals with photo's quite well!
Here's a shot of the system in use at the Saville Center in Edmonton...where we developed it.

hughmurf has attached this image:

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04-20-09 03:51PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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And a pic of the display unit sitting atop a tripod. You can see one of the speedtrap boxes sitting on the hogline.

hughmurf has attached this image:

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04-20-09 04:32PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Oct 2006
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Re: The Curling Stone Speedtrap

Looks very cool. Some tech questions:

- Is there any sort of output on the display box that can interface with a laptop? Auto-capture of data from this could be useful in charting rocks, etc.
- I don't have a good feel for what speed a rock travels at. What speeds are you getting for a draw? a takeout?
- What kind of batteries does it take? What is the battery life?
- Does your system compensate for line of delivery? It looks like you are measuring about a 3" distance of travel for a rock thrown straight down the center line. If I throw a rock aimed at the outside 12, the rock cuts across your speed trap on an angle, increasing the distance traveled by a small amount. Does that change anything?

I'm not being negative...I'm excited! (and probably asking too much from a $200 device)

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