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04-15-14 05:24PM
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Re: The end of the Brier as we know?

quote:
Originally posted by Sydney57
With the creation of all the new teams with imports (out of province)are we seeing the value of the Brier decrease?
How will the advertiser react?
What will the CCA do?



If provincialism = value, then the 'value' of the Brier has been evolving for some time ... since the CCA frowned on provincial parties more than a decade ago.

If importation diminishes value, then the first notable devaluation was in 2007 when Brad Gushue 'imported' Chris Schille -- the year Gushue lost that Brier final. Then there was Kevin Park with Stoughton in 2009; and Ryan Fry with Gushue that same year.

Note: John Morris joining Kevin Martin was not 'importation' -- but rather was a tipping point and current bar for the creation of super-teams within provinces, a fact which also has had the effect of eroding provincialism.

How will advertisers react? Only one that I know of really cares. Most just want to maximize eyeballs for their commercials. George Cooke (now retired) of The Dominion General Insurance Co. cared enough to fund the Canadian Club Curling Championships ... a noble initiative to recreate adult curling provincialism at one level below today's elite level ... where the Brier was many, many years ago.

As for the CCA, the CCA wants eyeballs ... and is betting that formally allowing imports will make it easier for all to be above board with a near decade-old wink-wink practice ... further, 'leveling' the playing field in this way may open the door in time for a more competitive field at its premiere tournament if more teams from more provinces import a player
.

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04-15-14 06:56PM
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Re: Re: The end of the Brier as we know?

If leveling the field is the goal, then why stop at 1 import player? Heck the curling associations of the relegation provinces can just import a whole team from a curling-rich province. Then the Brier will truly be leveled.

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04-15-14 07:30PM
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Wink Wink

quote:
Originally posted by ishootsports.ca
As for the CCA, the CCA wants eyeballs ... and is betting that formally allowing imports will make it easier for all to be above board with a near decade-old wink-wink practice ... further, 'leveling' the playing field in this way may open the door in time for a more competitive field at its premiere tournament if more teams from more provinces import a player.



The big problem here is that once the flood gates open with one free import, there will still be the wink wink for the 2nd player, then 3rd and so on. It won't stop until every province and territory is represented by Alberta and Ontario, with the odd sprinkle of MB. The CCA will have to be renamed the AOCA (Alberta-Ontario Curling Association). It's just a matter of time before competitive curling is gone in the rest of the country.

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04-15-14 07:31PM
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Re: Re: Re: The end of the Brier as we know?

quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered
If leveling the field is the goal, then why stop at 1 import player? Heck the curling associations of the relegation provinces can just import a whole team from a curling-rich province. Then the Brier will truly be leveled.


amen brother

would love to watch that brier!

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04-15-14 08:36PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered
Listen, the brier was ruined when they stopped the Brier Train and started to let players fly to the event....or was it when Ken Watson started to slide out of the hack....maybe it was when players were not allowed to smoke on the ice anymore.....the brier ended when players started to practice to get better, this was not fair to the players that didn't practice.....maybe it was when the players started to pick rocks from different sheets......the brier was ruined when the three rock rule started to be used.....the brier was ruined when the four rock rule was introduced.....maybe it was the page playoff system that really ruined the brier....



You are a complete idiot. None of those are the reasons the brier was ruined. Let me tell you the real reason.

The Brier was ruined when it went from 12 ends to 10...or was it when they stopped using corn brooms...or was it when they started using time clocks...or was it when they added playoffs to the round robin...or was it when they allowed Newfoundland to enter a team...or was it when tobacco couldn't advertise and more...or was it when they stopped having extra games to determine who came in second and third (which they did from the beginning to 1951)...or was it when they started having an extra game to see who came in third (THE EVIL BRONZE MEDAL GAME THAT IS THE SCOURGE OF CURLING O WHY O WHY CAN'T IT BE THE WAY THINGS USED TO BE!!!!)

Although I think the Brier truly died when you could tell your kids to Google the name of the 1948 Brier winning skip and not have to have an awkward conversation about the search results.

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04-15-14 10:59PM
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Personally, I'm not sure about this.

I get why they want to do this. I would prefer they keep the current system and at least try to have the players involved have some sort of attachment to the province they're playing for... even if it's forcing them to jump through some fairly easy hoops in order to qualify (see John Morris and BC). But I get it... makes it more competitive, give curlers more flexibility to play with teams based in other provinces without the rigamarole that goes on right now, and so on.

But if they are going to allow this, then the CCA has to make it IRONCLAD that the other 3 players are residents of the province they wish to represent (I might consider some very specific exemptions but those would few and far between, and very rigid). Otherwise, we may as well drop the provincial requirements entirely for the Brier/Scotties entirely. And if that's the way we're going... well, I think that would be a disaster

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04-16-14 06:45AM
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To all the upset users regarding the import players...

Do you not want Canada to continue as the dominant country in Curling? Do you not want to watch the best curlers in Canada compete against one another in order to wear that Maple Leaf on their back?

Like all other sports, it's a matter of putting the best team possible on the playing field. With this being said, the CCA only allows 1 import player so this is still quite limited! If the import player feels comfortable representing a province he may not be from, then good for him! In the end, wherever he resides will still feel some satisfaction if he were to win representing that other province (Just like I'm happy if an american hockey team mainly consisting of Canadians were to win the cup).

Personally, I believe the best 14 teams in Canada should be at the brier. It's a national championship that should consist of the best 14 teams in that nation, ultimately coining the best as Team Canada. The fact that these teams are the best is because they put the most time, effort, and sacrifice the most to become the best. Why wouldn't we credit these dedicated athletes moreso than the team who had 8 representatives at their provincial, and managed to have a good week thus putting them into the brier. How is that fair?!

We must lose this idea that a national championship must have EVERY province/territory and that a player shouldn't be able to represent a province in which they do not reside in.

Maybe we can just do what Scotland or Sweden does... would everyone be content with that??

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04-16-14 07:30AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Gerry
Pat Simmons lives in Saskatchewan and plays out of Alberta. Jennifer Jones lives in Ontario and plays out of Manitoba. Brent Laing lives in Ontario and will play out of Alberta. Steve Burgess lives in New Brunswick but plays out of Nova Scotia. Brock Virtue and Chris Schille lived in Alberta and played out of Saskatchewan. And of course John Morris played out of British Columbia and lived in Alberta.

They all did what they had to do to meet local restriction to be eligible to play for their provinces.

The CCA has no interest in policing this as it's in their best interest that the best players get together to form stronger teams. Why should Steve Burgess be penalized that he lives and works in New Brunswick, but there are no teams there interested in travelling and playing a bigger schedule.

Pat Simmons is the best player in Saskatchewan and he never really had the success he was seeking there, "moves" to Alberta to play third for Koe and wins a Brier.

Jim Cotter has gone through a long list of players at 3rd since Bob Ursel retired due to injuries and hasn't found much success until Morris joined them.

It's sport, and the best teams are going to do what they need to do to get together. If you don't like it, put the work in and beat them on the ice.
who the hell is steve burgess? lets talk about people who curl here ppl

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04-16-14 08:23AM
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The Brier is and always should be about province vs province. It's about tradition. If you have this concern or beef about having the best so called representative at the worlds and you don't think it will come from the Brier. Simply send your Canada Cup Winner in both men's and ladies to the worlds. Do you think that the winner of the Brier would lose that much sleep if they weren't guaranteed to represent canada at the worlds. Just give them a spot in the Canada Cup and let them earn there way from there, if you are so worried.

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04-16-14 08:57AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered
The Brier is and always should be about province vs province. It's about tradition. If you have this concern or beef about having the best so called representative at the worlds and you don't think it will come from the Brier. Simply send your Canada Cup Winner in both men's and ladies to the worlds. Do you think that the winner of the Brier would lose that much sleep if they weren't guaranteed to represent canada at the worlds. Just give them a spot in the Canada Cup and let them earn there way from there, if you are so worried.


I dont often post on this but I have to for this one....this is probably the dumbest thing I have ever read on this site....the one and only reason teams play for the brier/scotties is for the chance to win and to go on to represent Canada....the only reason!!

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04-16-14 10:10AM
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quote:
Originally posted by fresca
thats your opinion - i dont believe it to be true , but it doesnt make it "dumb" ... pretty sure most briar winners dread the thought of the worlds .. and that aint dumb either





brier.

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04-16-14 10:25AM
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This post is for all those who cry: 'It's about the best...blah, blah, blah'

No matter what teams play in the Brier or Scott it will require some sort of qualification system.

Do you seriously think the tour or CTRS is the right way? Because if so, then it doesn't become about your ability to play.

It becomes about your ability to pay.

If you aren't blessed with rich parents or a lottery win, you can't play every weekend. And wise up Canada, there are thousands of talented players out there walking away from the sport because we are allowing competition to turn into a rich mans sport.

Oh, and BTW, the dirty little secret the rich guys don't want to tell you is they want it this way. They don't want to play the poorer teams because on any given day they can be beaten (proof? This years ONT rep) by so called lesser teams.

Provincial or some sort of regional system, at least offers a fair and level playing field for all. And if five top 20 teams end up in one area, well too bad. The best team will emerge wont they?

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04-16-14 10:36AM
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quote:
Originally posted by ASquires
To all the upset users regarding the import players...

Do you not want Canada to continue as the dominant country in Curling? Do you not want to watch the best curlers in Canada compete against one another in order to wear that Maple Leaf on their back?

Like all other sports, it's a matter of putting the best team possible on the playing field. With this being said, the CCA only allows 1 import player so this is still quite limited! If the import player feels comfortable representing a province he may not be from, then good for him! In the end, wherever he resides will still feel some satisfaction if he were to win representing that other province (Just like I'm happy if an american hockey team mainly consisting of Canadians were to win the cup).

Personally, I believe the best 14 teams in Canada should be at the brier. It's a national championship that should consist of the best 14 teams in that nation, ultimately coining the best as Team Canada. The fact that these teams are the best is because they put the most time, effort, and sacrifice the most to become the best. Why wouldn't we credit these dedicated athletes moreso than the team who had 8 representatives at their provincial, and managed to have a good week thus putting them into the brier. How is that fair?!

We must lose this idea that a national championship must have EVERY province/territory and that a player shouldn't be able to represent a province in which they do not reside in.

Maybe we can just do what Scotland or Sweden does... would everyone be content with that??



I'm going to disagree with you on this. First, curling isn't quite like other sports, at least in Canada. It's still a more-or-less (with lots of winking in a few cases) an amateur or non-profit sport. Comparing the use of imports in curling in Canada is not comparable to using imports for the local hockey team.

Two, the greatest thing about curling in Canada is that it is one of the sports that encourages regional (provincial/territorial) participation. Our national championships bring curlers from across the country to play. While I agree (to a point) that not every province should be in the main event, every province/territory should have a shot at making it.

By eliminating the resident requirements, you'll wind up also shooting curling in the foot in many provinces. Numbers are already down in provincial competitions. Bonspiels, even second tier events, are diminishing. The dream of making it to the Brier/Scotties and representing your province is still the thing that drives a lot of the second tier teams, and those teams still make up the majority of entries in spiels and provincial competitions. Take that away... well, you might get a few driven teams willing to try (see Team Jacobs), but it'll kill a lot of competitive curling (or drive them to the Club Challenge).

And you'll see a lot of clubs questioning the need of being a member of a provincial association... why should they be a member if their members have no guarantee of being given a place in regional competitions for national championships?

And I'm not convinced of the need to make changes. We won 2 Olympic Gold Medals in 2014, a Gold and Silver in 2010... what's broken here?

I don't mind exemptions under legitimate circumstances, or if we're going that way, maybe one exemption to the resident requirements. But more than that... well, those of you pointing to Scotland or Sweden as an example, take a look at their numbers of competitive curlers since they switched to their system to gain Olympic medals.

The drive for Olympic medals is great, but it shouldn't be at the expense of everything that makes curling great in Canada.

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04-16-14 11:52AM
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Yes the Brier as we know it is dead.

We all know that the goal now is the create the "best" team. The US federation has been called on the carpet by the US olympic committee for not doing just that.

But instead of killing the Brier in this half-hearted way... teeny pre-qualifiers... semi-import players... etc... let us do it RIGHT.

Instead of this puny "pre-qualifier" which eliminates Provinces from the Brier, let us have a full "Brier" or whatever you want to call it, with 16 Provincial teams. Strict residency rules. Every Province, Territory represented if they want to. If there are vacancies, allocate them to the most populous (curling) provinces.

16 teams play down. If a big round robin is too much, do two pools of 8. Do a triple or quad knock-out if you want. Play them down to winner, runner up, etc.

Then have your Canadian Championship two weeks later at the other end of the country. Top ONE, or whatever, from the "Brier", ..maybe top 2... and the remainder by whatever points-ranking scheme that you want. This should be a much smaller, but more intense affair. 8 teams. Maybe ten max.

There's your Canadian champion. He goes to the Worlds and...in an Olympic Year, to the Olympics. Chooses, if he wants to, and 2nd place gets what's left over.

So there is your chance to be Canadian Champion from the Grass roots, or from the "professional" ranks. Or both.

You're welcome.


...

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04-16-14 11:53AM
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To those who suggest that the Brier should be setting a field of THE BEST curlers, how's this for a solution?

Alberta runner-up represents the Yukon
Manitoba runner-up represents Nunavut
Ontario runner-up represents P.E.I. (I'd suggest that they represent Quebec, but...)
Saskatchewan runner-up represents New Brunswick
BC runner-up represents Nova Scotia
Manitoba third place represents Newfoundland (when Brad retires or moves)

Those provincial associations could save money by not having to stage playdowns and younger curlers in those provinces could stay in school and not have to worry about wasting their time curling.

Is everybody happy now? Perhaps we'll see the Brier TV numbers finally reach the "rarified" levels of the WCT-won't that be wonderful?

I didn't think so.

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04-16-14 12:18PM
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quote:


So there is your chance to be Canadian Champion from the Grass roots, or from the "professional" ranks. Or both.
... [/B]


The "pros" really don't want to curl against the amateurs.
Its too embarrassing if they lose.

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04-16-14 12:36PM
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quote:
Originally posted by icebound
Yes the Brier as we know it is dead.

We all know that the goal now is the create the "best" team. The US federation has been called on the carpet by the US olympic committee for not doing just that.

But instead of killing the Brier in this half-hearted way... teeny pre-qualifiers... semi-import players... etc... let us do it RIGHT.

Instead of this puny "pre-qualifier" which eliminates Provinces from the Brier, let us have a full "Brier" or whatever you want to call it, with 16 Provincial teams. Strict residency rules. Every Province, Territory represented if they want to. If there are vacancies, allocate them to the most populous (curling) provinces.

16 teams play down. If a big round robin is too much, do two pools of 8. Do a triple or quad knock-out if you want. Play them down to winner, runner up, etc.

Then have your Canadian Championship two weeks later at the other end of the country. Top ONE, or whatever, from the "Brier", ..maybe top 2... and the remainder by whatever points-ranking scheme that you want. This should be a much smaller, but more intense affair. 8 teams. Maybe ten max.

There's your Canadian champion. He goes to the Worlds and...in an Olympic Year, to the Olympics. Chooses, if he wants to, and 2nd place gets what's left over.

So there is your chance to be Canadian Champion from the Grass roots, or from the "professional" ranks. Or both.

You're welcome.


...



I needed to mention that, of course, there would be NO Provincial-residency rules for the "Canadian Championship" part..

...

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04-16-14 02:39PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JustAnotherHack


I'm going to disagree with you on this. First, curling isn't quite like other sports, at least in Canada. It's still a more-or-less (with lots of winking in a few cases) an amateur or non-profit sport. Comparing the use of imports in curling in Canada is not comparable to using imports for the local hockey team.

Two, the greatest thing about curling in Canada is that it is one of the sports that encourages regional (provincial/territorial) participation. Our national championships bring curlers from across the country to play. While I agree (to a point) that not every province should be in the main event, every province/territory should have a shot at making it.

By eliminating the resident requirements, you'll wind up also shooting curling in the foot in many provinces. Numbers are already down in provincial competitions. Bonspiels, even second tier events, are diminishing. The dream of making it to the Brier/Scotties and representing your province is still the thing that drives a lot of the second tier teams, and those teams still make up the majority of entries in spiels and provincial competitions. Take that away... well, you might get a few driven teams willing to try (see Team Jacobs), but it'll kill a lot of competitive curling (or drive them to the Club Challenge).

And you'll see a lot of clubs questioning the need of being a member of a provincial association... why should they be a member if their members have no guarantee of being given a place in regional competitions for national championships?

And I'm not convinced of the need to make changes. We won 2 Olympic Gold Medals in 2014, a Gold and Silver in 2010... what's broken here?

I don't mind exemptions under legitimate circumstances, or if we're going that way, maybe one exemption to the resident requirements. But more than that... well, those of you pointing to Scotland or Sweden as an example, take a look at their numbers of competitive curlers since they switched to their system to gain Olympic medals.

The drive for Olympic medals is great, but it shouldn't be at the expense of everything that makes curling great in Canada.



Good post.

Reality is, its only a few players driving this play anywhere BS. They feel they're somehow more privileged than everyone else.

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04-18-14 08:01PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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quote:
Originally posted by Jimbobogie
To those who suggest that the Brier should be setting a field of THE BEST curlers, how's this for a solution?

Alberta runner-up represents the Yukon
Manitoba runner-up represents Nunavut
Ontario runner-up represents P.E.I. (I'd suggest that they represent Quebec, but...)
Saskatchewan runner-up represents New Brunswick
BC runner-up represents Nova Scotia
Manitoba third place represents Newfoundland (when Brad retires or moves)

Those provincial associations could save money by not having to stage playdowns and younger curlers in those provinces could stay in school and not have to worry about wasting their time curling.

Is everybody happy now? Perhaps we'll see the Brier TV numbers finally reach the "rarified" levels of the WCT-won't that be wonderful?

I didn't think so.



I am sensing some sarcasm here perhaps.

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04-18-14 10:57PM
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What about a 6th slam and call it "The Brier"

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04-18-14 11:46PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered


Don't compare people who move to a new area to those who parachute in. If you're not able to tell the difference you're not too bright.

A preliminary check of Morris's employer shows no mention of him on staff. Wouldn't you promote a celebrity Olympian guide?

Also, it appears that the site itself hasn't been updated since April 2013.



You really think John Morris needs to reveal all details of his personal life just to keep the occasional curling fan happy? You think this website needs to update themselves ASAP to keep you happy? Are you kidding? John Morris is a firefighter - do you realize how easy it is for a firefighter to work a second job?

It is none of your business how he goes about filling his requirements, only whether he does or doesn't. I can confirm, like Gerry has, that he is 100% finishing his requirements and for you to think anything different with no information is just foolish. If you can provide proof that he is not honouring his commitment go for it, because Gerry confirmed that he is (and I myself guarantee you that he is.)

Everyone here needs to remember one thing. Curling is still an amateur sport. These athletes have jobs outside curling and that is a big reason so many reside where they do. To think that an amateur athlete should have to choose between quitting their job and moving across the country or failing to curl competitively is hilarious. If these athletes were paid like professional athletes in other sports I would agree with you but please remember they are not.

All the backlash over John Morris makes no sense. Jennifer Jones has lived in Ontario for the past year and no one is calling her out for being a "Manitoba" team. Pat Simmons won a Brier doing the same thing as Morris. Yet for some reason Morris is the one singled out.

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04-18-14 11:57PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered


You really think John Morris needs to reveal all details of his personal life just to keep the occasional curling fan happy? You think this website needs to update themselves ASAP to keep you happy? Are you kidding? John Morris is a firefighter - do you realize how easy it is for a firefighter to work a second job?

It is none of your business how he goes about filling his requirements, only whether he does or doesn't. I can confirm, like Gerry has, that he is 100% finishing his requirements and for you to think anything different with no information is just foolish. If you can provide proof that he is not honouring his commitment go for it, because Gerry confirmed that he is (and I myself guarantee you that he is.)

Everyone here needs to remember one thing. Curling is still an amateur sport. These athletes have jobs outside curling and that is a big reason so many reside where they do. To think that an amateur athlete should have to choose between quitting their job and moving across the country or failing to curl competitively is hilarious. If these athletes were paid like professional athletes in other sports I would agree with you but please remember they are not.

All the backlash over John Morris makes no sense. Jennifer Jones has lived in Ontario for the past year and no one is calling her out for being a "Manitoba" team. Pat Simmons won a Brier doing the same thing as Morris. Yet for some reason Morris is the one singled out.



He's game just like some no name posts a video Rob Ford getting drunk and it goes viral. Sorry, no immunity for him.

The residency requirement is a joke and a half. It cheapens those who work their tails off in their province to get out of the provincials.

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04-19-14 01:27PM
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Residency requirements aren't a joke. Governing bodies who make those rules and dont apply them are.

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04-20-14 11:34PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered
This post is for all those who cry: 'It's about the best...blah, blah, blah'

No matter what teams play in the Brier or Scott it will require some sort of qualification system.

Do you seriously think the tour or CTRS is the right way? Because if so, then it doesn't become about your ability to play.

It becomes about your ability to pay.

If you aren't blessed with rich parents or a lottery win, you can't play every weekend. And wise up Canada, there are thousands of talented players out there walking away from the sport because we are allowing competition to turn into a rich mans sport.

Oh, and BTW, the dirty little secret the rich guys don't want to tell you is they want it this way. They don't want to play the poorer teams because on any given day they can be beaten (proof? This years ONT rep) by so called lesser teams.

Provincial or some sort of regional system, at least offers a fair and level playing field for all. And if five top 20 teams end up in one area, well too bad. The best team will emerge wont they?



Well said totally agree

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Is it suppose to bounce of the back like that?

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04-21-14 06:21AM
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The government funding of $100,000 for Brier winners and the free training should be stopped immediately. Some team should challenge it in court. Grossly unfair. We are now down to about 4 teams that make $100,000 + per player and have a huge advantage over the other top 10 teams. The other teams have NO chance of winning a Brier.

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