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03-19-14 12:39PM
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Putting bums in the seats.......

Both the Brier and the Scotties did not draw many fans this year. Both pulling in near record low numbers.

The CCA has said publicly that they were expecting a 'bump' from the Olympics. Allowing them to pull in fans who might not otherwise be attracted. Thinking this to be the case they decided to use this hoped for advantage to allow them to go into parts of the country that are also, generally speaking, not otherwise attracted.

To say that it didn't work out as well as hoped would qualify as classic understatement.

I think I got this right when I say that the Scotties in Montreal was the second worst attendance ever, at just under 40K. I haven't seen the Brier totals anywhere but my guess is they too came close to a low for the stadium era.

It's important to understand from the outset that this is not an easy problem. And the people who are trying to address this problem are not stupid or incompetent. It's just flat out hard.

As the boys at the WCT are certainly finding out.

Part of the problem is economic. It's difficult with labour intensive events with high fixed costs to compete on price. I know this phenomena well having owned and operated a couple of different theatre companies in my youth.

Funny historical aside: Theatre has been around and written about for thousands of years. Since Aeschylus and Sophocles through Shakespeare and Moliere, to Mamet and Tremblay, there has been one refrain that has remained constant. "Now is just not a very good time for theatre."....lol....

The thing about the times is that there ain't nothing you can do about them. All you can do is improve those factors you do control.

I did however go see the Scotties to see Team Homan scythe through the field. Why? Well for one thing it was in Montreal. So it gave me motivation to get off my ass and go back and see my family. Also both my niece and my sister curl, and my sis was volunteering at the event. In other words it was pretty hard for me not to go. Not exactly what you could call a formula that can be turned into general principles.

Another part of the problem is not unsolvable. I.e. Curling is a game of inches, and that you can see way better on TV. So even a curling junky like myself stayed home when the WCT was in the Mattamy Centre. Cause, well, it's cheaper and I see it better on TV anyway. Or in my case on the computer as I don't have a TV.

So what's to be done?

My first thought is that you need to bring the advantage of TV to the live attendees. There is no reason with today's technology that people shouldn't be able to see in the crowd exactly what the people at home are seeing. Yes I know they have that feature already, what I'm saying is it needs to be markedly improved. Ideally I would like the stadium audience to have the better TV so to speak. e.g. Why people still go to the movies.

There is another element of the game that people like about curling on TV and that is hearing what the players are saying. So perhaps an app that allows all them there smart phones to pull in the broadcast. Heck you could even wire all the skips for sound and people could go from game to game, Listening in at crucial moments. Given them something you can't get at home.

Ultimately with broadcast quality video tech so cheap nowadays I'd like every sheet to be available with sight and sound via smart phone app. Then you'd really have something the folks at home don't have. But when dealing with large orgs one step at a time is hard enough to achieve. So we can get to that.

On the pricing side. You can't be afraid to charge what you have to in order to be economic. But you also have to be aggressive on pricing to maximize your 'down time'. E.g. Happy Hour in restaurant lingo. I.e. They are happy there is anyone there at that hour.

You know there are going to be people there on the first day and on the last day. Getting people out on the other days is the challenge. Especially the early weekdays. So.

Spend the money you need on your marketing team to get the schools out. Charge super low prices. Provide a bus or share the cost of transport with the school board. Something is better than nothing for one thing even if the net is only one dollar per seat. For another every marketing guru will tell you, get 'em young you get 'em for life. Not to mention that a full arena is so much more fun for everyone.

That's all I got time for at the mo. Anyone else with an idea or two?

Last edited by JB42 on 03-19-14 at 02:27PM

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03-19-14 12:46PM
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Wikipedia is your friend (attendance figure is right there in the infobox): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Tim_Hortons_Brier

The attendance at the Brier was 65K. Worst since the Chicoutimi Brier, I think.

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03-19-14 01:07PM
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65,000 is really inflated. That may be how many tickets were sold, but through the week, there were not that many people in the stands, especially when BC wasn't playing.

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03-19-14 01:15PM
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The problem is acknowledged, solutions are desired.

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03-19-14 01:25PM
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Slightly off topic, but the one thing I've never understood about curling coverage on TV is why the camera always shows the rock coming towards the house. (the camera is behind the house)

You can't see the rocks in the house until the thrown rock gets there. You can only tell if the shot is close or not by the reaction of the sweepers.

Wouldn't it make more sense to have a high angle camera behind the player throwing the rock? That way you could see the rock curling and also the intended target throughout the whole shot. At Sochi there were some really interesting positions and angles from cameras in different places and the few times they showed things from the perspective I'm talking about it was great.

With the camera panning down the sheet you could actually see the rock curling AND the port (as an example)it was trying to get to. Now you don't see anything in the house for 90% of the shot and you can only tell if the player is close to negotiating the part from what the the brushers are doing or what the commentators are saying.

Am I the only one who has always wondered about this?

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03-19-14 02:06PM
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I was in Montreal for the Scotties, and felt it was a very poor event when compared to other Scotties and Briers I've attended. The Maurice Richard arena itself is old and, frankly, sad. There was no video screen for the fans in attendance. The concessions were abysmal - minimal food offerings, no alcohol that I could see. Memorabilia kiosks were non-existing (or hidden). It really felt like a lower tier event, rather than a national championship.

Event aside, Montreal is always a great place to spend a few days of course (which is partly why we made the trip down the 401).

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03-19-14 04:21PM
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As long as the CCA needlessly has an Olympic Trials event, there will always be this four year anomaly.

The arena held slams have shown that there is little appetite for the live audience. Hopefully, the WCT have finally learned this and will scale back to smaller 1000-1500 seat venues.

The only real competition the CCA faces is itself. The viewing public looked at the four major events and chose the Roar, drawing fans who would otherwise attend the Brier, Scott or World event.

Hosting in Montreal, a major city easily reached, was a good choice. Any other year it would have done well. Kamloops was a poor choice. Lack of a decent airport and terrible road conditions didn't help.

But, again, take the Roar out of the equation and kamloops probably does ok.

The solution? Let's face it folks, the Roar is unnecessary. It props up the WCT and the slams and as Jacobs has proven, your national champ is more than capable of winning gold.

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03-19-14 04:46PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered
As long as the CCA needlessly has an Olympic Trials event, there will always be this four year anomaly.

The arena held slams have shown that there is little appetite for the live audience. Hopefully, the WCT have finally learned this and will scale back to smaller 1000-1500 seat venues.

The only real competition the CCA faces is itself. The viewing public looked at the four major events and chose the Roar, drawing fans who would otherwise attend the Brier, Scott or World event.

Hosting in Montreal, a major city easily reached, was a good choice. Any other year it would have done well. Kamloops was a poor choice. Lack of a decent airport and terrible road conditions didn't help.

But, again, take the Roar out of the equation and kamloops probably does ok.

The solution? Let's face it folks, the Roar is unnecessary. It props up the WCT and the slams and as Jacobs has proven, your national champ is more than capable of winning gold.



Completely disagree.

1) The Roar is necessary. It provides a platform for:
a) the top teams in our country, and almost without a doubt, only the top teams to get there. The Brier and Scotties allows weaker teams to possibly sneak into playoffs at these events and on a slim chance win a Brier or Scotties.
b) It gives a much more high intensity and pressure situation that is needed to prove that our olympic teams will do well...it has worked so far...only country to produce a medal win in both mens and womens event every time. No other country or sport can say this. The same can't be said about our teams that attend worlds following winning nationals.

2) Montreal never would have done "well" as a host. It doesn't have a huge population of curlers or curling fans and those that are habitual Brier and Scotties attenders go for that...not the city it is in. I'd argue that Montreal being the city it is hurt numbers as well as most a lot probably went to see numerous draws and saw far fewer because they could do other things in Montreal.

3) The Roar was not the reason for decreased attendance at the other big 2 events (Brier and Scotties). The real reason...the continental cup. Most curling fans chose this because it was in Las Vegas, was cheap to fly to, hotels cheaper and packages were cheapest.

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03-19-14 04:58PM
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Wish I had an answer. The weekly ticket package price for the Brier has got to the point where I'm not interested, even when it's in my home city. Next time around, I'll probably get a couple of ticket packages for opening weekend, maybe pick up some tickets for one of the weeknight draws and be done. As pointed out, easier to watch the games on TV. That being said, other sports that are far easier to watch on TV than in person than curling, golf springs to mind, still seem to attract thousands of on site spectators.

Maybe the only way to get bums back in the seats is to reduce the coverage available on TV but I suspect the CCA won't walk away from that obvious cash cow.

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03-19-14 05:08PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered
The solution? Let's face it folks, the Roar is unnecessary. It props up the WCT and the slams and as Jacobs has proven, your national champ is more than capable of winning gold.


Aside from the fact that I completely disagree with you, the chances that the CCA changes the Olympic process is virtually zero (not only is it a money-maker, but it also clearly 'works')

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03-19-14 08:56PM
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I think that you're going to have a problem in any Olympic year-casual fans will see any other event as secondary-including Scotties/Brier. Having said that, I've never pictured Montreal as a "curling" city-neither is Toronto. You have to start at Sault Ste. Marie and work your way west-or the new Brunswick border and work your way east.

As for camera angles-we say some experimentation at the Olympics-some loved the new concept, others not so much. Given that it's the final rock position in the house that's critical, I'd agree with the current setup.

Finally-TV viewers are definitely spoiled to the extent that the only reason to buy a ticket is social (ie-Brier Patch).

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03-20-14 12:55AM
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I would love to see them take something like the Briar and build somewhat of an event around it. I know it is an event itself but what if you hosted at a facility like the Powerade Centre in Brampton ( refering to the facility not the town). Has a 5000 seat main arena that will handle all the briar games easily. but then they have 4 other pads that you could maybe convert 1 or 2 to curling and run CIS Championships, clinics and some other more hands on activities.

Agreed that broadcast tech is cheap but the man power is not. to have full coverage of all 4 sheets would add allot of man power. But I do like the idea of an ipad/tablet app that you can get the at home tv experience while in the stands.

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03-20-14 02:23AM
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I think there are three reasons, all of which have been mentioned.

1) Continental Cup in Las Vegas. This is the number one reason. Not the Trials, not the pre-Trials, this. It is more expensive to fly to Kamloops than it is to Vegas in most parts of Canada. It would actually be cheaper to fly down to Vegas out of Vancouver and stay there than just the hotel would be in Kamloops. It's a no-brainer for a curling fan.

2) Ticket prices. They're ridiculous. It's curling, yeah, we all love the game, but the ticket prices are silly, especially for national events. The whole point of these events has always been drawing a crowd from across the country to take part in the event as a whole. The curling, at times, can be secondary. The ticket prices have priced out that average fan. Now with tickets/flights/hotel, the Brier costs a person $1500 or more, and that's before beer/food. That's a tropical vacation at an all-inclusive.

"Hey, average curling fan, it's March and you've been stuck in -40 all winter. Do you want to go to another city that's -40, or do you want to go to Cancun with free alcohol and the game on TV(which is arguably a better experience, especially if the fans aren't there)?"

3) Both Montreal and Kamloops were always going to have terrible attendance. Neither have a tremendous base of curling fans(and Kamloops is just a straight-up small city), and they're at the ends of the country, which makes for more expensive flights, fewer people who can get there by car, etc. etc. When you put the events in the prairies, there's always people willing to drive in. Brier's in Edmonton? You get the Calgary crowd. Scotties is in Moose Jaw? You get Regina and Saskatchewan, etc.

Quebec isn't a curling province, and BC is slowly turning that way. The closest major city to Kamloops is Vancouver, which is not a curling city either, and fans have to drive one of the most dangerous stretches of road in the country to get there.

Neither event was going to be big this year, as the CCA wanted the Continental Cup in Vegas to get attention(which it got), and the Trials to be the main draw(which they were).

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03-20-14 06:41AM
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I think what the WCT needs to do is find a permanent home for three of the four slams. For example, the Mattamy Center in Toronto, Somewhere in Edmonton and the third location either down east or in Winnipeg, or whatnot.

When you look at Golf, most of the majors are always in the same place. Augusta for the Masters, The British Open uses a few courses, but on a set rotation, the Players Championship is at Sawgrass, etc. The US Open will float around the states.

It makes it far easier for the tour to organize marketing, they don't need to rebuild a local committee for four different events in four different places every year. They can build ties with local sponsors, local volunteers, and build up the events from year to year rather than starting fresh every year. Plus, it'll help draw crowds by putting them in large population centers, and in places that people can plan to go to a year in advance.

Keep the fourth slam moving around the country to different areas to add a little variety and build the sport in lower popularity areas. If you only need to build one event from scratch every year, you can put a lot more resources into making it a success.

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03-20-14 07:45AM
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My 2350 cents worth

Pricing is simply too high given the economic condition in SJ.

The city has experienced and continues to experience a sluggish economy. Publicized numbers indicate SJ as the highest unemployment rate in the country. There is just not that much disposable income floating around to warrant the costs. Granted it is great entertainment when you factor in the patch but that still doesn't help.

I wanted to shorten up my wait to get a walk up ticket so I logged in online. I gave it a pass when the surcharges were over $7.00 for a $20 ticket. Walk up and you can get any ticket you want and get your first round at the patch free!

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03-20-14 09:50AM
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quote:
Originally posted by duct_tape
When you look at Golf, most of the majors are always in the same place. Augusta for the Masters, The British Open uses a few courses, but on a set rotation, the Players Championship is at Sawgrass, etc. The US Open will float around the states.

Not to get off-topic, but the Players is not a major - the PGA Championship is, and it, like the US Open, moves around to different courses every year. Of the 4 golf majors, only the Masters is a fixed location.

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03-20-14 10:25AM
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quote:
Originally posted by nelsosi

Not to get off-topic, but the Players is not a major - the PGA Championship is, and it, like the US Open, moves around to different courses every year. Of the 4 golf majors, only the Masters is a fixed location.




Well, the players is basically considered the 5th major, even if it's not an "official" major. The main point is large tournamnets like that can stay put. And as I said, the British Open does rotate courses, but it's a set rotation of pre-designated courses that's been in place for eons. So, they still get the same benefits as a stationary event for the most part.

The point stands, If they changed the location of every major event every year it'd create a lot of extra cost, extra work organizing and extra headaches in marketing the event. Curling is suffering from that right now, and I think it's a big factor in why we're having trouble drawing crowds.

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03-20-14 10:29AM
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1996 Brier attendance in Kamloops (same venue) was 127,000. In 2010 (an Olympic year) attendance was 107,000 in Halifax. In 2006 (an Olympic year) attendance was 126,000 in Regina.

There is no historical evidence that the Olympic hangover or the location would result in such dismal attendance as this year in Kamloops. I do not believe the Continental Cup took fans away from the Brier either. Certainly not 60,000 fans.

I think you need to take a serious look at the organizing committees for both the Brier and Scotties, but particularly the Brier as this is a huge drop from the past 20 years of data. You could also blame the CCA, but from my understanding, the CCA selects a site based on the organizing committees presentation and it is up to the organizing committee to fulfill obligations such as local participation and "getting bums in the seats" as per the topic. I have to think the organizing committee completely dropped the ball on this Brier.

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03-20-14 10:42AM
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quote:
Originally posted by duct_tape



Well, the players is basically considered the 5th major, even if it's not an "official" major. The main point is large tournamnets like that can stay put. And as I said, the British Open does rotate courses, but it's a set rotation of pre-designated courses that's been in place for eons. So, they still get the same benefits as a stationary event for the most part.

The point stands, If they changed the location of every major event every year it'd create a lot of extra cost, extra work organizing and extra headaches in marketing the event. Curling is suffering from that right now, and I think it's a big factor in why we're having trouble drawing crowds.



I'm going to disagree with you. The USGA has actually made an effort to get to different places, like Bethpage and Torrey Pines in the last decade, and Erin Hills and Chambers Bay in the next several years. The PGA also makes an effort to put the PGA Champ in new places - Whistling Straits, Valhalla, Quail Hollow, etc. There are some regulars for sure (Pebble, Pinehurst, Shinnecock, Winged Foot, etc), but they both try to sprinkle in new courses too.

Interestingly, the USGA is experimenting with putting both the mens and womens Open at the same venue (Pinehurst) in consecutive weeks this year.

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03-20-14 10:48AM
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quote:
Originally posted by nelsosi


I'm going to disagree with you. The USGA has actually made an effort to get to different places, like Bethpage and Torrey Pines in the last decade, and Erin Hills and Chambers Bay in the next several years. The PGA also makes an effort to put the PGA Champ in new places - Whistling Straits, Valhalla, Quail Hollow, etc. There are some regulars for sure (Pebble, Pinehurst, Shinnecock, Winged Foot, etc), but they both try to sprinkle in new courses too.

Interestingly, the USGA is experimenting with putting both the mens and womens Open at the same venue (Pinehurst) in consecutive weeks this year.





Well, that's why I'm saying keep three of the four stationary and move the fourth one around. I agree you need at least one that changes location, but you don't need everything moving every year. It just makes it harder to build an event that people will actually want to go to.

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03-20-14 12:45PM
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I don't know how many years the Canadian Open was at Glenn Abbey but it was certainly more than 10.

If the Brier attendance creates a fiscal crisis for the CCA I can see putting it 'permanently' in one location where attendance is more or less guaranteed. E.g. Rexhall Place or the MTS Centre.

At least until the crisis is over.

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03-20-14 01:47PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JB42
I don't know how many years the Canadian Open was at Glenn Abbey but it was certainly more than 10.
Glenn Abbey was effectively built to give the RCGA and the Canadian Open a 'home'. But they also started moving the Open around to other courses about 15 years ago.

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03-20-14 02:20PM
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jamcan
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Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
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quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered


Completely disagree.

1) The Roar is necessary. It provides a platform for:
a) the top teams in our country, and almost without a doubt, only the top teams to get there. The Brier and Scotties allows weaker teams to possibly sneak into playoffs at these events and on a slim chance win a Brier or Scotties.
b) It gives a much more high intensity and pressure situation that is needed to prove that our olympic teams will do well...it has worked so far...only country to produce a medal win in both mens and womens event every time. No other country or sport can say this. The same can't be said about our teams that attend worlds following winning nationals.

2) Montreal never would have done "well" as a host. It doesn't have a huge population of curlers or curling fans and those that are habitual Brier and Scotties attenders go for that...not the city it is in. I'd argue that Montreal being the city it is hurt numbers as well as most a lot probably went to see numerous draws and saw far fewer because they could do other things in Montreal.

3) The Roar was not the reason for decreased attendance at the other big 2 events (Brier and Scotties). The real reason...the continental cup. Most curling fans chose this because it was in Las Vegas, was cheap to fly to, hotels cheaper and packages were cheapest.



Don't agree.

You're justification for the Roar is flawed. The Brier and Scott playdowns are every bit intense as the ones to the Roar. Additionally, just because a team from the Trials has yet to tank at an Olympic Games doesn't mean that it won't happen. You can't compare the few Olympic Games with medal status to the 40 plus years of dominance at the Worlds.

Overall, the success of National Champions at the Worlds speaks for itself.

The Contintental Cup was the reason for low attendance? Seriously? still laughing at that one.

IMO, the Roar and Pre-trials take away from spectators who would otherwise travel to the Brier or STOH. Additionally, they're an economic drain on CCA resources and thus should be eliminated.

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Maybe the days of 100,000 plus are done. Brandon MB hosted one of the best worlds twenty years ago. Maybe the venues nowadays are just too big. Rock shows sell-out. Why not sell out a Brier. Put it back in small venues, and as a previous poster suggested, with side events in a multi-facility. Why not sell out the Scotties. A 7000 seat arena is plenty big enough, even 5000. That opens it up to many smaller cities, new volunteer crews, and completely able organizing committees. Let the organizing committee offer other attractions to the visitors. Transportation issues are manageable. Cities with this size of arena has accommodations to host events there. Smaller centres can be great destinations for sporting events.

What was the seating capacity of the arena in Montréal that hosted the Scotties this year?

TV viewing is great - and can "increase the size" of the arena, very easily. I love the audio ap idea. Yes. Mic all of the skips.

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03-20-14 03:34PM
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I was at the Continental Cup in Vegas and I would have to say that the Continental Cup was a good part of the reason why the Scotties and the Brier were ill-attended. There were at least 90% Canadians in that crowd and the place was packed every day. Add to that an Olympic year with the Road to the Roar and then the Roar of the Rings, then the logical assumption is that people might have been spread out a little more this year.

To even suggest that the Continental Cup being held in Vegas had no impact on attendance for the Brier and Scotties is ludicrous, of course it did.

I have been to many Briers and many Scotties. This year I attended the Roar of the Rings and the Continental Cup...took a pass on the Brier / Scotties. Next year, I'll get to the Brier in Calgary. Do you think the Brier will be ill-attended next year? No chance..it will be packed. Why? 1. No Continental Cup in Vegas. 2. No Roar of the Rings 3. Crowds out in the prairies really get up for National Curling Championships.

BTW: The best Briers that I have attended? HALIFAX. Best venue...patch is in the same building. Excellent crowds. Great bands. 2003...probably the best Brier I have ever been to.

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