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: NWTCA Mixed
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03-17-14 05:06PM
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re Epping & Morris

More I think about it.

Epping like Morris is without a team. Colin and Scott having retired.

I've heard that he's going elsewhere but this would be a really good fit.

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03-17-14 05:10PM
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Re: re Epping & Morris

quote:
Originally posted by JB42
More I think about it.

Epping like Morris is without a team. Colin and Scott having retired.

I've heard that he's going elsewhere but this would be a really good fit.



yeah, epping and morris seem like they'd be a great fit. Both seem like very similar people personality wise and both definitely have the drive to go for 4 more years. IF they do team up then john might be the one to take john to the next level and help him get consistency .

any ideas who jim cotter will pick up to fill the 3rd position?..maybe sean geall?

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03-17-14 05:41PM
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re Cotter

Well Cotter was a five man team with Gunner as the fifth.

He might be up for some playing, though he now has his dream job with Gary Vanderberg's company, former world champion as Stoughton's second back in the day.

So they'd probably still need someone else if they were going to go at it real hard.

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03-17-14 06:40PM
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Re: re Cotter

quote:
Originally posted by JB42
Well Cotter was a five man team with Gunner as the fifth.

He might be up for some playing, though he now has his dream job with Gary Vanderberg's company, former world champion as Stoughton's second back in the day.

So they'd probably still need someone else if they were going to go at it real hard.



Apparently Gunlaugson moved back to Manitoba for this job.

Not sure how many might hook up with Cotter. Most are now waiting for the Morris shoe to fall and, depending upon what Morris does, they may descend on Curl BC in search of heads.

Although I guess EPP would probably say yes.

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03-17-14 06:51PM
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All this juggling , if its true, makes me realize how grossly unfair it is gor the govt to pay 3 or 4 teams $100,000 a year plus special training - it enables them to be totally professional curler earning another $100,000 in slams an who no how much in sponsorship. .... Which then allows them to practise more and win more. ... Kind of a vicious circle .. Not fair to the nex 20 teams

Just my opinion

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03-17-14 08:14PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered
All this juggling , if its true, makes me realize how grossly unfair it is gor the govt to pay 3 or 4 teams $100,000 a year plus special training - it enables them to be totally professional curler earning another $100,000 in slams an who no how much in sponsorship. .... Which then allows them to practise more and win more. ... Kind of a vicious circle .. Not fair to the nex 20 teams

Just my opinion



The government should fund only the best. Then it becomes something to strive for instead of some entitlement. The next 20 teams can either complain about the unfairness of life or they can shut up and win. Winning solves everything. Do you think some talented 15 year old kid is going to quit curling because John Morris or Jen Jones or some other world class curlers are funded? Anyone who quits or complains is beaten already. Those next 20 teams aren't there because they are not funded. They are in the next level because of loft problems on their teams.

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03-17-14 08:39PM
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Well i guess thats your opinion. I have never heard any of the other teams complain btw, and thou i enjoy Howard, Martin, Stoughton, Koe, - their brier funding and I think Gushue was funded too. ... Is grossly unfair to everyone else. .... I guess the difference between you and me is that you must win at any cost and i am content to see the spoils shared more equally - even with other countries.

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03-17-14 08:57PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered
Well i guess thats your opinion. I have never heard any of the other teams complain btw, and thou i enjoy Howard, Martin, Stoughton, Koe, - their brier funding and I think Gushue was funded too. ... Is grossly unfair to everyone else. .... I guess the difference between you and me is that you must win at any cost and i am content to see the spoils shared more equally - even with other countries.


That's called communism.

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03-17-14 10:04PM
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Called communism

True that is what the McCarthyites would call communism, and what the rabid right and the Fox News nutbars would call communism. I'm also sure it's something close to what John Baird and Rob Ford have called communism in similarly unrelated to reality cases. I am reminded of Don Cherry's rant against "bicycle riding pinkos" at Rob Ford's swearing in as Mayor. But these are very silly people and even sillier when trying to pass themselves off as thinkers. I expect a higher level of critique here on CZ. If only out of civility and the shared brotherhood of the rock.

Communism is a political theory which advocates in the main that the workers control the means of production and private property be abolished. I.e. The commons be returned to the common.

It also advocates that grassroots organizations have a direct say in how the policies and revenues of the state are guided. Aka. Democracy.

And while we are on the subject it is true to say that there has never been a genuinely Communist government in the world. Just as it is true to say that there has never been a genuinely free market one.

What is also inarguable is that both Adam Smith and Karl Marx the father's of the above systems agreed 100% on at least one thing. Equality of opportunity was a sine qua non of a functional society. And that equality of outcomes was the most meaningful metric of whether equality of opportunity was actual as opposed to theoretical.

So when Unregistered talks about spreading social wealth more widely to help foster more equal outcomes it is just as true to say he is being 'capitalist' as it is to say he is being 'communist'. Not that it is sensible to bring either into the discussion.

Few know this about Smith. But it is an idea he expounds many times in his two major treatise. Wealth of Nations, and Theory of Moral Sentiments. Meanwhile the 'invisible hand' is mentioned in precisely one line in the whole of his writings. AND he uses it to illustrate a counter example to what it is used today to justify. That's right folks. The opposite of what the propagandists use it for today. How is that possible? Quite simple really. We are supposed to revere the man, not read him.

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03-18-14 05:22AM
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Re: Re: re Epping & Morris

quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered


yeah, epping and morris seem like they'd be a great fit. Both seem like very similar people personality wise and both definitely have the drive to go for 4 more years. IF they do team up then john might be the one to take john to the next level and help him get consistency .

any ideas who jim cotter will pick up to fill the 3rd position?..maybe sean geall?



It won't be Geall....

And the Johnny/Epping rumors have been around for a while. Wouldn't shock too many, if John doesn't take the year off.

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03-18-14 08:07AM
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virtue split

Just had a thought. The virtue split seems so sudden. I follow the team on twitter and moskowy and schille are both pretty active on there. Not that long ago braeden responded to a poster , he said that poster would be seeing them on tv for the next 20 years. It honestly didn't seem like either one of them had any intention of leaving any time soon.

I remembered that simmons, Rycroft and thiessen will need a team mate.

what if Brock virtue is that team mate? maybe they approached brock about joining the line up at either 3rd or skip.

This just seems all to similar to me to 2 years ago when brock broke up his team after losing the alberta final. Could it be possible he did the same thing again here and is hooking up with koe's old team?

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03-18-14 09:10AM
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Maybe John Morris follows Heather Smith back to Nova Scotia and not only skips NS back into the Brier by winning the relegation round but scores enough wins to avoid having to requalify the following year. His experience as a fishing guide would be perfect in that province.

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03-18-14 10:25AM
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quote:
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Maybe John Morris follows Heather Smith back to Nova Scotia and not only skips NS back into the Brier by winning the relegation round but scores enough wins to avoid having to requalify the following year. His experience as a fishing guide would be perfect in that province.


He could win N.S, easily with Mark Dacey as his 3rd!!!

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03-18-14 10:42AM
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One thing people overlook is the job factor. For John Morris he is a career firefighter in Alberta. It not like he can transfere to Ottawa any time he wishes. If he was able to get on in another city he would be starting over at the bottom of the senority list. I doubt this is something that he would want to do. I see John staying in Alberta.

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03-18-14 10:46AM
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i find it quite comical that everyone is getting there panties in a twist about John Morris playing for BC and living in Alberta. Heck Pat Simmons still lives in Saskatchewan and was playing in the Moose Jaw Major League last year weekly and if you google Calgary to Moose Jaw its a pretty far drive to be doing a weekly trip. I think the whole residency rule is outdated to be perfectly honest, to me as long as you can compete in all stages of playdowns in a particular province then i say have at it. Anybody can do what John Morris did even Joe Blow up the street can do that hell for some curlers maybe parachuting out of another province might be the best way for them to get to the brier.

As for the whole Team Canada at the Brier the best comment i heard was the defending Stanley Cup team doesnt get to go directly back to the stanley cup finals the next year, so why should the defending Brier champs get a free spot in the following years brier.

My Response to that is, its Curling not hockey and we need to be unique! Comparing our game to another sport is ludacris and with all this bitching about guys parachuting into different provinces this is a good reason to have the defending champs get a direct birth to the brier and it gives that one extra team to make things interesting. This change doesnt have to be forever but a little experiment never hurt anybody. Plus the whole relagation round idea yea its a little stupid but it does put a lot of pressure on any team that represents any province they have to perform well to keep there province up in the standings so they are not relegated the following year.

As for all these stupid rummours that people put on here about whose playing where next year, you all sound like a bunch of high school kids. My goodness do some people have nothing better to do then come up with some complete b.s.! My favourite is the people the come on here and post as "Unregistered" and in there post say "I heard this story from a very reliable source". I bet those same people can sell water to fish as well, give me a break if your going to post something you got from a "very reliable source" say your source who cares this is curling not the NYSE, were all going to find out by June anyways whats really going on and who is play with who. I guess it helps some people sleep at night or helps their egos by knowing something that other people dont but will find out only weeks after they do, awesome!

I swear some people are so afraid of change on here and think every decision anybody makes in the CCA, WCT, and WCF is going to be the end of the game as we know it. Everyone needs to take a minute and not panic sometimes we make mountains out of mole hills and you know what its not always as bad as it seems. Ya i agree some decisions by the powers to be are not always the greatest in the world and hey thats way it goes sometimes but think about where curling is now compared to even 10 years ago.

Anyways thats just my rant!

Keep it Cold!

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03-18-14 11:26AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Curlerfan2003
I think the whole residency rule is outdated to be perfectly honest, to me as long as you can compete in all stages of playdowns in a particular province then i say have at it.


So you would be okay with four players from say Ontario parachuting into another province, or territory, to participate in playdowns there.

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03-18-14 11:28AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered
One thing people overlook is the job factor. For John Morris he is a career firefighter in Alberta. It not like he can transfere to Ottawa any time he wishes. If he was able to get on in another city he would be starting over at the bottom of the senority list. I doubt this is something that he would want to do. I see John staying in Alberta.


True but he could almost assuredly move to a fire station in another province. I'd imagine any fire dept would be more than happy to have an experienced fire fighter come into their ranks.

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03-18-14 12:03PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest


So you would be okay with four players from say Ontario parachuting into another province, or territory, to participate in playdowns there.



If they got the money to burn and do so have it, they still got to win the playdowns anybody can beat anybody no matter how good you are. I dont know why everyone is worried about what every other team is doing worry about yourselves and your own team and you will be fine.

If people are worried about parachuting on a national level then they should really look at whats going on with in the provinces first an awful lot of teams playing out of clubs for playdowns that they may not even have one player who is a full time member there or even one member from the city/area in which the club is in. I dont see much of a difference when you compare the two situations. I know this rings true in Ontario for sure, i am not accusing everyone but there are teams that do that.

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03-18-14 01:04PM
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Parachuting

There is a very long history of parachuting within a province, in every province I'm sure.

For example in my zone - Zone 8 - in Toronto we had Mike Harris and Wayne Middaugh in the same bleeding zone for a few years. And it didn't stop there as the Oakville club is also in the zone. By far the biggest and most competitive club. They have A through J divisions in their men's league. John Base curled out of there for example. Given their size it's a bit of a surprise that they haven't fielded more good teams. Then again if your name isn't Howard, Middaugh or Werenich it's been a very trying time to win this province. (They took 28 of the Purple Hearts since 1973) Harris managed to get to the Brier precisely once in the whole of his career. John Base playing third.

So instead of taking on the challenge of trying to win one of these two spots, and that just to get to regions. Teams would find a club North or East of Toronto and join there as house members. That would let them compete in a different Zone.

There was naturally enough a feeling among some that this was illegitimate. And a feeling among others that this was merely sensible. John Morris is getting flak for doing the same thing on a provincial level. Recently Gunnlaugson was going to do it on a national level. Taking an offer from the Russian federation to be their curling representative. Hugh Millikin did it for years representing Australia so he could get to the World's and even the Olympics.

Again there were some that felt this was legitimate and others who thought it stank to the high heavens.

There really is no right or wrong to any of these behaviours. Aside of course from what is decreed by the rule makers. And rules of course can and are subject to interpretation and change. So it is all rather malleable.

Team Howard play out of Penetanguishine. Savill lives in Ottawa. Is that illegetimate? In a sense I guess it could be viewed so. Though in their case it's a rather mild transgression. Glenn works at the local beer store, Wayne a local golf club, and they and their wives play in the local major league. Brett works just down the road in Barrie.

It's all a matter of perspective and so by definition open to debate.

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03-18-14 01:49PM
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Re: Parachuting

quote:
Originally posted by JB42
There is a very long history of parachuting within a province, in every province I'm sure.

For example in my zone - Zone 8 - in Toronto we had Mike Harris and Wayne Middaugh in the same bleeding zone for a few years. And it didn't stop there as there as the Oakville club is also in the zone. By far the biggest and most competitive club. They have A through J divisions in their men's league. John Base curled out of there for example. Given their size it's a bit of a surprise that they haven't fielded more good teams. Then again if your name isn't Howard, Middaugh or Werenich it's been a very trying time to win this province. (They took 28 of the Purple Hearts since 1973) Harris managed to get to the Brier precisely once in the whole of his career. John Base playing third.

So instead of taking on the challenge of trying to win one of these two spots, and that just to get to regions. Teams would find a club North or East of Toronto and join there as house members. That would let them compete in a different Zone.

Couldnt agree more!

There was naturally enough a feeling among some that this was illegitimate. And a feeling among others that this was merely sensible. John Morris is getting flak for doing the same thing on a provincial level. Recently Gunnlaugson was going to do it on a national level. Taking an offer from the Russian federation to be their curling representative. Hugh Millikin did it for years representing Australia so he could get to the World's and even the Olympics.

Again there were some that felt this was legitimate and others who though it stank to the high heavens.

There really is no right or wrong to any of these behaviours. Aside of course from what is decreed by the rule makers. And rules of course can and are subject to interpretation and change. So it is all rather malleable.

Team Howard play out of Penetanguishine. Savill lives in Ottawa. Is that illegetimate? In a sense I guess it could be viewed so. Though in their case it's a rather mild transgression. Glenn works at the local beer store, Wayne a local golf club, and they and their wives play in the local major league. Brett works just down the road in Barrie.

It's all a matter of perspective and so by definition open to debate.

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03-18-14 01:59PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Curlerfan2003
If they got the money to burn and do so have it, they still got to win the playdowns anybody can beat anybody no matter how good you are. I dont know why everyone is worried about what every other team is doing worry about yourselves and your own team and you will be fine.


I agree, you don't know why everyone is worried. If you want an open Canadian Championship with no boundaries then say so. Having provincial boundaries and flouting residency rules just makes the "national" championship a convoluted mess open to criticism and resentment from local teams.

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03-18-14 02:17PM
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Open Canadian Championship

We already have an open Canadian Championship it is called the Olympic Trials. The winner is the champion and representative of Canada. The only residency rule is you must be Canadian.

The Brier on the other hand is a championship that brings together the various provincial and territorial champions.

It has a hallowed place in the hearts and minds of Canadian curlers not least because of its long tradition of being just that. A place where the various provincial champs play each other to determine which province has the champion curling team of that year. Not to mention the bragging rights...lol...

They will not necessarily be the best team Team McDuff springs to mind. The only Canadian men's team to miss the playoffs since the inception of the world championship in 1959. Be that as it may they were the Canadian Champions and they have been heroes in Nfld ever since.

We have the Trials, we have the Slams, we have the CTRS points and the WCT money title. None of these have provincial residency requirements. The Brier has different rules and a different spirit and it should be maintained. IMO.

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03-18-14 02:17PM
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quote:
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If they got the money to burn and do so have it, they still got to win the playdowns anybody can beat anybody no matter how good you are. I dont know why everyone is worried about what every other team is doing worry about yourselves and your own team and you will be fine.

If people are worried about parachuting on a national level then they should really look at whats going on with in the provinces first an awful lot of teams playing out of clubs for playdowns that they may not even have one player who is a full time member there or even one member from the city/area in which the club is in. I dont see much of a difference when you compare the two situations. I know this rings true in Ontario for sure, i am not accusing everyone but there are teams that do that.



Better re-think that....any province with a big name Stoughton, Howard, Martin will see there secondary teams fly to smaller provinves/territories (ex. Nova Scotia, PEI, Yukon, Nunavut)just to play a quick provincial playdown.... you might as well just have the brier seeded and pick the highest ranked teams from around Canada cause you sure as hell wouldn't see teams like Jamie Koe or Mark Dacey who have legitimate shots of making brier playoffs even make it back to the brier. The brier field would be saturated with a few teams from Alberta, Manitoba, Ontario, maybe one from Sask (if they play really well) and Gushue being the only true east coast team....just another slam!

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03-18-14 02:37PM
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Better re-think that....any province with a big name Stoughton, Howard, Martin will see there secondary teams fly to smaller provinves/territories (ex. Nova Scotia, PEI, Yukon, Nunavut)just to play a quick provincial playdown.... you might as well just have the brier seeded and pick the highest ranked teams from around Canada cause you sure as hell wouldn't see teams like Jamie Koe or Mark Dacey who have legitimate shots of making brier playoffs even make it back to the brier. The brier field would be saturated with a few teams from Alberta, Manitoba, Ontario, maybe one from Sask (if they play really well) and Gushue being the only true east coast team....just another slam!



Whats wrong with having the best teams in the country at the national championships?

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03-18-14 02:55PM
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Curlerfan2003
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Dec 2003
Location:
Posts: 70

Truth be told we could go back and forth on this for years to come. The reality is their is money and merit points in the brier so guys are going to do what they need to to get there,and to be perfectly honest most of the teams travel enough and the likelyhood of them going to a province/territory outside there own is highly unlikely, imagine the cost for a team to go out east or to the territories just for playdowns and no potential at all of cashing a cheque i mean sure they have sponsorship but you would need to cut back on your touring for sure. Do you think the CCA cares whose representing what province no as long as their tickets are selling thats all they care about!

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