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<smallfont><b><a href=CurlingZone > Chat Forums > General Curling Chat > Rock Talk > What should be the future of residency rules for elite curlers in Canada?

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11-15-13 11:07PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JustAnotherHack


*snort*

Well, I'm JOE SCHMOE, and I asked about the same exemption and as long as I got the paperwork together, the provincial curling associations in question had no issue with granting an exemption based upon my situation.

And to clarify, my situation involved me being a resident in one province, but spending 3+ weeks out of every 6 (roughly) working in another province on the other side of the country.

I've wound up not pursuing it this season (at least, not as this point for men's), but it wasn't a big deal. The CCA approved the policy this summer, and the provincial/territorial associations are following it.

You can argue the merits of the policy (and I see both sides of the arguments here, but I tend to lean to giving out an exemption if the situation is legitimate). But it was agreed upon this summer, so the point is moot, at least for this season. If you don't like it, you can always take it up with your local association.



Theres a big difference with your story, you are actually living and working half the time in the province you would be playing out of as opposed to not at all. So, not the same at all.

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11-15-13 11:12PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered


Has anyone asked the guys who regularly compete at provincials what they think?

I've chatted with a few of the guys that I know who are regulars at the BC provincials, and most seem indifferent to Morris competiting. They acknowledged that it will increase the level of competition (which is needed), and bring more attention to curling in BC to the general public, which is something that the sport needs.

And yes, they also acknowledge that it'll make it tougher to make it to the Brier, but I think most of the competitive guys are looking forward to the challenge rather than being upset about it.

I hear all this rage from certain people about this issue, and it sounds like it's the normal bunch of bellyachers and whiners spouting off... mostly the guys on the fringes of competitive curling or those who wouldn't know the difference in the level of curling from their Friday night social versus a WCT cashspiel.

This system for residency requirements and exemptions could be abused. So exemptions need to be looked at closely and handed out with care. But if there is a legit reason for granting an exemption in a given year, why not?



I don't know who you have been chatting with, but the topic has come up often at spiels I've been to and the overwhelming opinion is negative, that it's BS, and shouldn't be allowed to happen. There are a few people that don't give their opinion but very few, and I haven't heard one supporting view. So, just because some are afraid to voice their opinion doesn't mean that they support it.

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11-15-13 11:18PM
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Well said peelplus. That too has been my experience. Not sure who these guys have spoken with but its not the majority of BC curlers.

Its bodnarchuk all over again. Just with nicer guys involved.

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12-07-13 07:30PM
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After what I just read about the Northern regional playdown results on playdowns.com I had to revisit this thread.

It appears that members of the PGGCC have pulled a classic con on Curl BC. To meet the four team entry minimum criteria to secure one berth it looks suspiciously like 2 of the 4 were fakes. As now only two teams are playing and the site lists weather (which vis clear all weekend), travel (when the event is in PG and all four entry are PG club teams) and injury (hangovers perhaps?) as the reasons for two teams to 'suddenly' withdraw.

Lol, who can blame these guys? When Curl BC let's Morris get away with a fake job claim, how can you stop this?

Nice job. Very nice job

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12-07-13 07:54PM
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Only one spot went to the North anyway so... it sucks, but if we want to encourage teams from Northern BC to be part of competitive curling in BC, we need to continue to at least offer a playdown up North. Even if only 2 teams bother to make the effort.

It's tough for the guys up North to commit to playing competitively, so Curl BC needs to try to make it as easy as possible. A lot falls on the clubs though too, to try to develop some sort of competitive circuit for teams to participate in locally... but it just seems like competitive curling is falling by the wayside (well, maybe curling in general is struggling up north).

(Except maybe for the ladies, as there are a couple of teams that seem to have the interest to go outside of the north to get the games in that they need to play at a competitive level.)

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03-04-14 05:47PM
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I don t thinks it's right for regular club curlers who never have any intention of playing in playdowns to have to pay fees to curl bc

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03-04-14 06:59PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered


Interesting post Mr. Cullen. How do you feel then about a BC team that has a member living and working in Alberta and that Curl BC is condoning them as a legitimate BC team?



I'll bite. It's brutal. CurlBC is brutal. John's exemption was based on him working in BC during the 13/14 curling season, that's straight of the application for exemption.

CurlBC has told me and a number of other curler's, icemakers, folks around the province that "they have had written confirmation from John's employer that he intends to work in the spring/summer of 2014" - Scott Braley - CEO, CurlBC.

Whether or not he follows through, he still has not worked in BC and currently is not working in BC over the time that his exemption was granted for. Therefore, John is not following the rules of his exemption and CurlBC is sweeping it under the carpet.

The Brier is the greatest event in the world. What makes it great is that you progress through levels of playdowns in hopes of representing YOUR province at a NATIONAL championship. And what makes it truly great, if you're playing well and have a good week at provincials... you get to go to a Brier. If you want to build a team to play the tour, play the slams, play Olympic Trials... go right ahead.

Don't come in to my province where you don't pay affiliation, where you don't volunteer, where you don't coach the kids, where you don't buy a 50-50 ticket, where you don't support the club and the bar. Don't come into my province to satisfy CurlBC's desperation for a winner and you especially don't do it when you're not following the rules that granted you to play in the first place.

What CurlBC is doing is brutal. Granted the rules were poorly written and poorly defined to begin with, but at the end of the day, neither the CCA or CurlBC has a big enough set to enforce the rules and call out a popular player that's breaking them. Only pressure from the curling community is going to make a difference.

Good post John Cullen, keep fighting the good fight.

Cheers
Steve Tersmette
Kimberley, BC

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03-04-14 07:08PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered


I'll bite. It's brutal. CurlBC is brutal. John's exemption was based on him working in BC during the 13/14 curling season, that's straight of the application for exemption.

CurlBC has told me and a number of other curler's, icemakers, folks around the province that "they have had written confirmation from John's employer that he intends to work in the spring/summer of 2014" - Scott Braley - CEO, CurlBC.

Whether or not he follows through, he still has not worked in BC and currently is not working in BC over the time that his exemption was granted for. Therefore, John is not following the rules of his exemption and CurlBC is sweeping it under the carpet.

The Brier is the greatest event in the world. What makes it great is that you progress through levels of playdowns in hopes of representing YOUR province at a NATIONAL championship. And what makes it truly great, if you're playing well and have a good week at provincials... you get to go to a Brier. If you want to build a team to play the tour, play the slams, play Olympic Trials... go right ahead.

Don't come in to my province where you don't pay affiliation, where you don't volunteer, where you don't coach the kids, where you don't buy a 50-50 ticket, where you don't support the club and the bar. Don't come into my province to satisfy CurlBC's desperation for a winner and you especially don't do it when you're not following the rules that granted you to play in the first place.

What CurlBC is doing is brutal. Granted the rules were poorly written and poorly defined to begin with, but at the end of the day, neither the CCA or CurlBC has a big enough set to enforce the rules and call out a popular player that's breaking them. Only pressure from the curling community is going to make a difference.

Good post John Cullen, keep fighting the good fight.

Cheers
Steve Tersmette
Kimberley, BC



That's a passionate post Steve, you have my respects for it.

But the fault-if there is one-is with those who made the decision regarding the eligibility. I just made a post to that effect on another thread.

I do believe that Curl BC needs to come clean to BC clubs and curlers on all the details surrounding that decision and to me that includes information about the employer. In my opinion this in only fair to all the parties involved and that includes Team Morris.

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03-04-14 07:26PM
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If Morris wasn't moving to BC to work until after the curling season, why would CurlBC have given him an exemption? He clearly didn't meet residency requirements during the season, so why not wait until he does, and then let him compete for the title? A car dealership doesn't let me buy a car from them based on me telling them I will start working six months from now. They tell me to get the job, and then I can have the car. No, it's not a perfect metaphor, but my point remains.

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03-04-14 07:32PM
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It looks like Canada is the only country left in the curling world in which all of the rinks* (that asterisk is for BC) curl and practise together at the same club. The element of practise time as a team should not be discounted. The US has a "Super-Rink" approach in which some rink members not only don't curl at the same club-they don't even curl in the same time zone. I've been watching some of the US Nationals-frankly, with a couple of exceptions, it's not pretty.

I don't think that the results of the Olympics should be overlooked either. Nearly the entire field consisted of "Super Rinks" (including the British men).

The folks at TSN were just talking about the situation in PEI, in which good curlers were moving "off-island", in pursuit of better competition.

I could get into the "relegation" issue as it relates to these smaller markets but...

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03-04-14 07:32PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jamcan


That's a passionate post Steve, you have my respects for it.

But the fault-if there is one-is with those who made the decision regarding the eligibility. I just made a post to that effect on another thread.

I do believe that Curl BC needs to come clean to BC clubs and curlers on all the details surrounding that decision and to me that includes information about the employer. In my opinion this in only fair to all the parties involved and that includes Team Morris.




Sorry, been getting a little wound up about this. On the other side of this subject, there are a lot of guys who travel, go to school and move about for work. If you've been diligent, applied and followed the rules, no one can ask too much more of you.

When you get a document rubber stamped by the governing body and are playing when you clearly haven't and currently aren't abiding by the terms of the exemption that you're granted, you can't expect people to send sympathy and support your way when people start jumping on you for it.

I like those boys, they're ridiculously talented, they're polite well spoken gents and highly respected in the curling community. Due the circumstances that got them to the Brier, they do not have my support and it's not personal.

I've posted on another thread as well, I am annoyed at how CurlBC has handled this to date (especially when it came to attention in early November). All the best to Jim, Ty and Rick but I'll pulling for Stoughton.

Cheers
Steve Tersmette
Kimberley, BC

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03-04-14 08:47PM
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let's see, the Brier is in BC in Kamloops where it is hard to fill the arena. Allow Morris to play so you may draw more spectators and a larger gate, not to mention more revenue to raise a sagging bottom line for the CCA. Wonder why John is playing for BC this year. Back to Alberta next year.

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03-04-14 08:59PM
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I really hope the Carpetbagger gets beat in the final by Koe. 5 Albertans in the final, but only 4 will win.

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03-04-14 09:33PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Squiggsy
If Morris wasn't moving to BC to work until after the curling season, why would CurlBC have given him an exemption? He clearly didn't meet residency requirements during the season, so why not wait until he does, and then let him compete for the title? A car dealership doesn't let me buy a car from them based on me telling them I will start working six months from now. They tell me to get the job, and then I can have the car. No, it's not a perfect metaphor, but my point remains.


I agree with you and Termesette. But I think Sexton has the right idea. Curl BC should come clean for everyone.

This needs to happen. Confidence in Curl BC among its member clubs and curlers is at an all time low. If rumors about Morris's job are true it would likely cost Braley and others their jobs and possibly suspensions to team Morris and Pat Ryan. But it would also restore a measure of credibility to an organization and set a standard the rest of the country needs-and one the CCA seems unwilling to set themselves.

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03-04-14 10:10PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered
let's see, the Brier is in BC in Kamloops where it is hard to fill the arena. Allow Morris to play so you may draw more spectators and a larger gate, not to mention more revenue to raise a sagging bottom line for the CCA. Wonder why John is playing for BC this year. Back to Alberta next year.


I didn't see the "smilie" after you mentioned the larger gate. Here it is...

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03-05-14 10:35AM
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I think if you are holding residency in more than one province than that's good enough. If your working in BC for example but go home Alberta or your Working in Ontario but Go home to Manitoba or Quebec than its up to you what province you want to compete for, as long as you have a genuine tie to that province.

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03-05-14 10:39AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jimbobogie
It looks like Canada is the only country left in the curling world in which all of the rinks* (that asterisk is for BC) curl and practise together at the same club. The element of practise time as a team should not be discounted. The US has a "Super-Rink" approach in which some rink members not only don't curl at the same club-they don't even curl in the same time zone. I've been watching some of the US Nationals-frankly, with a couple of exceptions, it's not pretty.

I don't think that the results of the Olympics should be overlooked either. Nearly the entire field consisted of "Super Rinks" (including the British men).

The folks at TSN were just talking about the situation in PEI, in which good curlers were moving "off-island", in pursuit of better competition.

I could get into the "relegation" issue as it relates to these smaller markets but...



um..what do you mean by "super teams" ? . If you mean teams put together specifically for the Olympics and that had players pulled from various teams to form an allstar rink than you are dad wrong. Yes the great Britain mens team was but there are no other teams that were at sochi where you can say that as a truth. Every single other team there had been playing together for a number of years going in

go ahead and point out those other super rinks to me if you will , who are they? ulsrud, muirhead, ott, sigfridsson, kim? know what your talking about before you open your mouth

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03-05-14 11:05AM
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So all I have to do is point at a lake in BC, say " there's a fish, there's a fish too", you slip me a fiver, and viola, I work in BC and am now eligible to play in that province. Wow

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03-05-14 11:12AM
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Not sure why everyone is concentrating their frustration only with John Morris. There are LOTS ( I can personally name a few) of others around the country doing the same thing. Lets make one set of rules and be done with all this nonsense.

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03-05-14 11:23AM
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Team Muirhead was put together by the curling powers in Scotland.

Ryan Fry didn't move to Soo to experience winter

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03-05-14 11:31AM
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quote:
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Team Muirhead was put together by the curling powers in Scotland.

Ryan Fry didn't move to Soo to experience winter



even if muirhead was put together by the powers that be that's still only 2 teams of the 20 there, far away from his statement that "most" of the teams there were "super" teams.

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03-05-14 11:34AM
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My take is that the residency rules are in place due to the funding of these teams @ the National Champ. "Because you live in the province & curl there, we'll fund you if you win." How fair would it to have 4 curlers from Quebec being paid to go to the Brier by CurlBC for example?

I also think these rules are in place to prevent teams from entering playdowns in more than one province in the same year... In this situation, Morris didn't enter a team into the Alberta playdowns to double his chances.

That being said, if the rule was that each team needs 3 members minimum from a province, it would solve the problems entirely. Make the same rule in each province & everyone's playing by the same set of rules. At least this way everyone has an equal opportunity. If Morris rented an apartment in BC, would it absolve the situation? Its not like the rent money would be going towards Curl BC anyways, so how does that make it OK. By this principle, as long as I can afford a residence I can play where ever I want, or only the rich can go to a Brier...

I've also read about the working in the province discussion. If the tables were turned & a resident of Windsor, Ontario worked entirely in Detroit, would this make the person ineligible to play in the Ont playdowns?

The situation isn't really that much different from player parachuting that goes on in Northern Ontario during playdowns. Because of the diminishing # of competitive curlers in NOnt, sometimes teams are forced to bring in a 4th player from out of town. The player pays a competition rate which is typically a fraction of the regular membership & can play out of that club. It's not being done to cheat or get an unfair advantage, its being done to make the best team possible with the players in the area that are available. Problem is that the areas are getting bigger and bigger... Why would a dotted provincial line make a difference?

I agree that the Morris issue isn't clean, because of the existing rules, but maybe its time the rules need to be revised slightly. I also think that if Morris hadn't made it to the BC Provincials / won it, this discussion wouldn't have gotten as much attention as it did...

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03-05-14 12:46PM
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Re: Another boycott?

quote:
Originally posted by outurn
So the professional curlers want to change the Brier playdowns to suit them by switching to whatever province they wish? What can the amateur curlers to about this? Well since the professional curlers are already funded and supported to make it almost impossible for amateur curlers (which is what the Brier was supposed to be) to compete with them, perhaps the non funded curlers should boycott the playdowns as the pro curlers once did. If everyone refused to pay playdown fees, or CCA competition fees, I think the CCA would not have the money that it currently uses to fund the few elite teams. For the vast majority of all curlers to pay for a few elite teams at the top seems destined to continue to destroy competitive curling in Canada.


You use the words Professional Curler and Amature Curler. So define for me what a Professional Curler is. Because I would contend there are none, at least not in Canada.

Most people would describe a professional athelete as someone who is paid to play. Hockey players sign a contract and get paid by their team to play regardless of if they win. Curlers on the other hand PAY money to play in events and IF they win they take home the prize money. Now there are a handful of players that make a lot of money doing this (especially once you consider sponsors), but how do you draw the line between them and another team that only wins a little bit of money and has a small amount of sponsorship?

Further you go on to say that Brier is SUPPOSED to be for amatures. I think that's your own invention. I've never seen that written anywhere or heard anyone associated with the brier proclaim that. It's supposed to be our national championship. The best of the best. Maybe you just assumed that it was an event for amatures because historically speaking there only has been amature curlers and it's only in the last few years that a few teams have approached a status that could be considered to be "Professional".

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03-05-14 01:39PM
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I really hope the Carpetbagger gets beat in the final by Koe. 5 Albertans in the final, but only 4 will win.


There would only be 4 Albertans in that final. Alberta only has 3 Albertans.

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03-05-14 01:44PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered
Not sure why everyone is concentrating their frustration only with John Morris. There are LOTS ( I can personally name a few) of others around the country doing the same thing. Lets make one set of rules and be done with all this nonsense.


Well that's your problem right there. The system of provincial associations is too entrenched (and, honestly, too important) for one set of rules to be feasible or realistic. You can only dictate so many things to the associations - they must have autonomy to adapt their rules/regulations to their regional needs, in the best way they see fit. You'll never get them all to agree.

The Brier's use of a combination of provinces/regions is just as arbitrary as any other measure by which they could decide who goes to the Brier. But make no mistake - the provincial associations are the reason this won't (and shouldn't) change. And so long as this is the case, they're all going to be free to set their own rules, including residency.

Further, to make residency rules more strict is to ignore the realities of today's "elite" curlers (who should be at our National Championship, the Brier). They travel like crazy, and specifically build themselves around the ability to commit to and play on the WCT, Grand Slam events, and eventually the Olympics. They HAVE to do this to be the best. But then they HAVE to adapt to the residency rules to go to a Brier. They MUST do both. So, the options are to pick up and move your life, or find a rule exemption. For some people, picking up and moving their life isn't an option; so you find a rule.

And sure, you can call soft residency rules pandering to the "professionals" (term debatable). But these are the best teams and this is the Brier. The CCA runs this tournament to determine a team to represent our country internationally. With all due respect to the "amateurs" and little guys out there, the rules SHOULD be made to cater to the elite teams. No one's saying the amateurs shouldn't keep playing. They should always have the option. But guess what? You're trying to get to a tournament that determines who will represent the country internationally. You should have to go through the best, and your lives shouldn't be made easier by the rules - you should have to do it on the ice.

Heck, I'm one of those amateurs, and I'll probably never make a Brier. But I have no problem with soft residency rules that allow the best teams to be at our National Championship. For those of you in BC, sorry about your luck. But guess what? Greg Balsdon just beat Glenn Howard here in Ontario. Was it next to impossible? Sure was - no one did it for 9 years. But they did it. So go do it in BC, and anywhere else you may find yourself stuck behind elite competition. Some of us have never had the option in the first place! And guess what else? When all of a sudden you have to beat a team like that to get to a Brier, competition improves out of necessity, provincial depth improves, and overall competitive curling in your province will benefit. Everyone gets better - and that's the most productive way to get closer to a Brier! Not complain about rules!

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