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<smallfont><b><a href=CurlingZone > Chat Forums > General Curling Chat > Rock Talk > What should be the future of residency rules for elite curlers in Canada?

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11-11-13 02:04PM
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What should be the future of residency rules for elite curlers in Canada?

Decades ago travel and communications weren't so easy, and the top curlers were very good and dedicated amateurs. Provincial residency rules were perhaps not controversial at the time. The Brier was the only ultimate goal.

Today travel and communications are much easier. Elite curlers manage to cobble together something of a living through understanding (or self-) employment situations, sponsors, some cash winnings, and athlete funding.

The marquee events in Canada are still the Men's and Women's national championships with their residency "requirements", but now there is a 4 year Olympic cycle and the money that can go along with it. Olympic eligibility cannot have any sort of residency requirement attached to it. (I'm not even sure if you can force a citizen to be actually resident in the country at all, let alone in some part of the country.)

A nudge and a wink, don't ask don't tell, some creative paperwork, and quiet grumbling seem to be the current strategy. I'm not sure this can last. And I prefer to have a sensible policy that is enforced rather than a unworkable one that isn't.

Here's my suggestion for a new rule...

A team can enter a National championship with at most one member not resident within the boundaries the association it is representing.


This resolves all current likely grumbling, and probably wouldn't cause smaller associations to be too badly affected by ringers. It allows players to form teams with Olympic aspirations that can also legitimately enter national championships. It also allows for the fact that these people generally still have to have jobs and other commitments.

I am not an elite curler, so this has no effect on me one way or the other.

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11-11-13 02:23PM
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You did not mention Canadian residency. Canadians have repped other countries at worlds and olys? I guess since we have such a deep pool of curlers, this aspect of residency is not critical, but maybe the policy you seek could be a reflection of the international policy, for worlds and/or olympics. One non-resident curler per team? Is provincial residence the equivilant of national citizenship? Do cdns who rep other countries LIVE there? Very interesting topic. Most countries do not face this issue. Club affiliation is another way around it. If a club accepts a non-resident member, and the team reps the club, through CCA up to nationals, does it matter where the team member lives. I'll follow this thread.

ps. this is my 1111th post on 11/11 kinda cool

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11-11-13 02:35PM
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If you do that, you kill curling as it is now. The game is already tipped far in favor of the haves as opposed to the have-nots, and this would just tip the scale further.

The whole point of the Brier has always been to have provincial representation. In my opinion, we are already losing curlers from the game due to the residency rules that are being fudged consistently year after year. If you are a good curler in a province where someone decides to fly in and play, what is your incentive to continue to play? If you can just make a team and choose which province you want to play in, it kills the game at the local level. Why even have provincial representation? Why allow only one player to be from another province?

I also believe it hurts provincial support as well. Who do you think the average person wants to cheer for: a provincial team represented by four men/women who all live and work in that province, or a team that has players living in other provinces and wearing their colors?

I think most fans would answer the first one.

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11-11-13 04:53PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jcullen
If you do that, you kill curling as it is now. The game is already tipped far in favor of the haves as opposed to the have-nots, and this would just tip the scale further.

The whole point of the Brier has always been to have provincial representation. In my opinion, we are already losing curlers from the game due to the residency rules that are being fudged consistently year after year. If you are a good curler in a province where someone decides to fly in and play, what is your incentive to continue to play? If you can just make a team and choose which province you want to play in, it kills the game at the local level. Why even have provincial representation? Why allow only one player to be from another province?

I also believe it hurts provincial support as well. Who do you think the average person wants to cheer for: a provincial team represented by four men/women who all live and work in that province, or a team that has players living in other provinces and wearing their colors?

I think most fans would answer the first one.



you know I honestly don't think it matters. As long as they have success I don't think anyone will care

other competitors might but im not sure fans will

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11-11-13 05:27PM
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Since the Brier and Scotties are National AMATEUR Championships, I think the current provincial/territory residency rules should be being properly enforced by the governing bodies. The professionals already have enough events including the Olympics.

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11-11-13 06:39PM
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quote:
Originally posted by misty1


you know I honestly don't think it matters. As long as they have success I don't think anyone will care

other competitors might but im not sure fans will




I think the fans do care. Which has better attendance, The Brier, or any of the Grand Slams.

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11-11-13 08:01PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jcullen
If you do that, you kill curling as it is now. The game is already tipped far in favor of the haves as opposed to the have-nots, and this would just tip the scale further.

The whole point of the Brier has always been to have provincial representation. In my opinion, we are already losing curlers from the game due to the residency rules that are being fudged consistently year after year. If you are a good curler in a province where someone decides to fly in and play, what is your incentive to continue to play? If you can just make a team and choose which province you want to play in, it kills the game at the local level. Why even have provincial representation? Why allow only one player to be from another province?

I also believe it hurts provincial support as well. Who do you think the average person wants to cheer for: a provincial team represented by four men/women who all live and work in that province, or a team that has players living in other provinces and wearing their colors?

I think most fans would answer the first one.



Interesting post Mr. Cullen. How do you feel then about a BC team that has a member living and working in Alberta and that Curl BC is condoning them as a legitimate BC team?

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11-11-13 11:48PM
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I posted this over in another thread, but it's relevant to this discussion. I was checking into my eligibility as well (resident of one province, but working in another), and was told that the CCA had passed a new policy on eligibility over the summer.

Here is the policy (and why Morris was given an exemption to curl in BC):


POLICY – Residency Requirements to Compete in a National Championship

All national curling championships involve the participation of teams that are made up of individuals who are full time residents within the geographic area of each Member Association. To ensure that all individuals are treated equally a policy has been agreed to that clearly outlines what an individual must be able to provide to be considered a resident for playdown purposes.

It is understood that an individual can only participate in one province/territory in any championship season. (Explanation – an individual may only participate in the playdown process in one Member Association in one championship year – this includes all championships that lead to a Season of Champions event as well as other provincial championships that may or may not lead to a national event. These would include Masters, Juveniles, The Dominion Club Championship, etc. It is understood that the Canadian Mixed, held in November, will be part of the previous year’s group of competitions even though it is dated in the following year. For example – the 2011 Canadian Mixed held in November of 2010 will be considered a part of the 2009/10 Championship season for residency purposes.)

To that end it has been agreed that an individual must provide a minimum of three of the following five items to the Member Association (if requested) whose playdown structure they wish to enter:

** Current Drivers License from that province/territory
** Current Health Care Card from that province/territory
** Letter from employer confirming employment within the province/territory
** Statement from landlord (if renting) or bank (if owned) confirming residency within the province/territory – a copy of a property tax invoice/payment for non-mortgaged property is also adequate
** Valid picture ID required for travel purposes if the individual does not have a valid driver’s license

Traditional on-campus full time students will be allowed to establish residency by providing a confirmation letter from their school’s Registrar’s Office confirming full time status and class enrollment for the academic year. This policy defers to the institution which the student attends in terms of defining full-time student status.

The individual will also provide a signed waiver if requested that will agree to a one year suspension from any CCA sanctioned championship OR championships coordinated by Member Associations (The Dominion, Masters and Juveniles) in the event it is discovered that any information has been provided in a fraudulent manner.

For Canadian Men’s and Canadian Women’s Championships, individuals MUST be a permanent resident of the province/territory in which they wish to enter playdowns prior to September 1st of the year preceding the championship season. (For example – Sept 1st of 2010 for the 2010/11 championship season) This time frame may be shortened in the following circumstances:
• Transfer due to employment
• School attendance
• Military service and transfer

Exemptions may be made in exceptional circumstances if granted by two Member Associations where:
 Individuals live within a short distance of a provincial/territorial boundary
 An individual is based in two cities due to an employment situation
 Part-time students
(Exemption requests MUST be filed a minimum of 21 days prior to the Member Association’s competition entry deadline)

For events other than the Canadian Men’s or Canadian Women’s, you are required to be a Canadian citizen; however, there may be unique circumstances that allow you to be residing outside of Canada and still be eligible to compete. These will be approved by the respective Member Association (for example – Point Roberts residents may be eligible to compete in BC events leading to Canadian Juvenile, Master and Dominion competitions if granted an exemption by Curl BC)
In the event an exemption is requested and cannot be agreed to by the respective Member Associations, a committee that includes the following three individuals will make a decision and their ruling will become final:

 Chief Executive Officer of the CCA
 Director, High Performance of the CCA
 One neutral member from the ED Council Executive

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11-11-13 11:52PM
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The one question I would wonder about (and I don't think is clear), is that if you could claim the exemption for more than one year, or is it a one time thing?

I don't really have a problem with it, as long as it's not being abused or manipulated by players. I can see the potential of that happening but... as long as it's policed fairly, meh.

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11-12-13 01:03AM
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USA curling is a whole different world from Canada. USA has no residency requirements for any of its national events. Some will argue that this has allowed for stronger teams, but USA is seldom a threat at the world level -- only occasionally do US teams medal. I think the change to elimination of state residency requirements in USA curling has resulted in a significant loss of interest in national results. Back when all teams in the nationals represented the state in which they lived, and those teams had to win their state title to advance to nationals, I believe there was considerably more interest at the club level in national results. Club members would follow the results of their club champs at district and/or state levels and then would follow the fortunes of their state champs at the national level. In spite of the considerable growth in the sport in the USA seemingly due to the increased media exposure driven by the Olympics, I would submit that the level of interest in the national championships has declined significantly. National championships held in new areas, e.g. the recent nationals in Philadelphia, draw good crowds but nationals held in traditional curling areas, e.g. the current Olympic trials in North Dakota, are played in mostly empty arenas. And in clubs across the USA, most curlers have little interest in the results of national championships, if they even are aware that nationals championships are being played. While it is hard to draw any parallels between USA curling and Canada curling, one wonders if easing residency rules in Canada might have a similar impact on the popularity of the Brier and Scotties?

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11-12-13 02:02PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered


Interesting post Mr. Cullen. How do you feel then about a BC team that has a member living and working in Alberta and that Curl BC is condoning them as a legitimate BC team?



I don't like it, but I do not fault any of the members of that team for it. This is something that has been happening for long enough now, they are simply taking advantage of existing rules. I have known Jim and the boys for years, have a ton of respect for them, and John entering our playdowns makes our province stronger, which I also have no issue with.

I just don't like any of the residency fudging that's happening right now, and this falls into that category, as far as I am concerned. We should be done with all of it.

The Olympics are a great thing for our sport at the elite level(exposure for top athletes, opportunity to go to the Olympics, increased international game) and at the non-curler level(exposes people to the game who may not have tried it otherwise, increases revenue for clubs with ice rental, etc.), but it is AWFUL for the game at a grassroots/local level, as it discourages many curlers from trying to get better.

People can sit back and say it's up to the curler to spend more money/time/effort to get better, but that is a very ignorant point of view. The reality is, most will discern they have no chance at ever making the Brier(especially if residency rules continue to be relaxed), and do less curling at that level, not more. The game should be coming to them at some level, they should not have to come to it.

The gap between the haves and have-nots has become nearly insurmountable, and this is coming from someone who would probably be considered a "have".

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11-12-13 02:29PM
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Excellent post by jcullen.

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11-12-13 02:58PM
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I actually just had this conversation with J. Cullen the other day.

I am of the opinion that the residency rules need to be inforced by the CCA, not the provincial association (as that is where the flexibility seems to come from).

I think the CCA needs to almost "case manage" the applicants. Applicants meaning people who are considered to live in one province and curl in another. This would consist of the case manager following up often to see if they are actually working where they say they are, living where they say they are, etc.

I believe in a lot of cases that the employment and living situation are the details being fudged in most of these cases, and if someone at the CCA put in a bit of time to investigate further they would find out the people playing out of province are not being honest about those details.

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11-12-13 03:31PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jonren
I am of the opinion that the residency rules need to be inforced by the CCA, not the provincial association (as that is where the flexibility seems to come from).


The CCA has left it up to the provinces to determine their provincial representatives as they choose. Having the CCA enforce the residency requirements, at the level you suggest, contradicts this. The CCA should request proof of residency for the eventual provincial representatives, not every entrant.

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11-12-13 04:06PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered


Interesting post Mr. Cullen. How do you feel then about a BC team that has a member living and working in Alberta and that Curl BC is condoning them as a legitimate BC team?




The decision by the BC and AB curling associations to allow a non resident of BC to curl Provincially in BC is TOTAL HORSECRAP. If it was JOE SCHMOE requesting this exemption I am sure they would have turned him down flat.

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11-12-13 04:22PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alex
Excellent post by jcullen.


I beg to disagree.

Mr.Cullen's post states he's okay with it because he likes the individuals involved. He then goes on to say how bad it is to not have firm residency rules.

You cannot have it both ways Mr Cullen. One set of rules for nice guys, a different set for others.

If John Morris truly lives and works in BC, great. He's welcome to contest for the provincial title. But, let's face reality. Everything currently points toward the opposite.

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11-12-13 04:39PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered



The decision by the BC and AB curling associations to allow a non resident of BC to curl Provincially in BC is TOTAL HORSECRAP. If it was JOE SCHMOE requesting this exemption I am sure they would have turned him down flat.



*snort*

Well, I'm JOE SCHMOE, and I asked about the same exemption and as long as I got the paperwork together, the provincial curling associations in question had no issue with granting an exemption based upon my situation.

And to clarify, my situation involved me being a resident in one province, but spending 3+ weeks out of every 6 (roughly) working in another province on the other side of the country.

I've wound up not pursuing it this season (at least, not as this point for men's), but it wasn't a big deal. The CCA approved the policy this summer, and the provincial/territorial associations are following it.

You can argue the merits of the policy (and I see both sides of the arguments here, but I tend to lean to giving out an exemption if the situation is legitimate). But it was agreed upon this summer, so the point is moot, at least for this season. If you don't like it, you can always take it up with your local association.

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11-13-13 02:33AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered


I beg to disagree.

Mr.Cullen's post states he's okay with it because he likes the individuals involved. He then goes on to say how bad it is to not have firm residency rules.

You cannot have it both ways Mr Cullen. One set of rules for nice guys, a different set for others.

If John Morris truly lives and works in BC, great. He's welcome to contest for the provincial title. But, let's face reality. Everything currently points toward the opposite.



You misinterpreted what I said.

I said that Cotter/Morris were simply taking advantage of a situation where others had paved the way for them. I didn't say because they were nice, the rules should be bent. I said they were nice and I respected them because that is the truth.

I think that road should have never been paved/went down in the first place. It is impossible for me to really have an issue with it given how there's been one team for the last 5-7 Briers(I did no research on this, but it seems right) where at least one player didn't reside in that province.

The rules should be changed(as I indicated in my post), but it's not going to happen this year, so we just accept it and move on.

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11-13-13 10:02AM
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I'm pretty sure I didn't misinterpret what you wrote.

Either way I no longer care. Curl BC, so desperate for a decent showing at the brier, has just shown every club and dues paying member that they don't care about protecting the rights of BC male and female curlers to contest, unmolested by players from other provinces, for their own provincial championship.

But the truly sad part is how few of you get what's happening.

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11-13-13 10:13AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered
I'm pretty sure I didn't misinterpret what you wrote.

Either way I no longer care. Curl BC, so desperate for a decent showing at the brier, has just shown every club and dues paying member that they don't care about protecting the rights of BC male and female curlers to contest, unmolested by players from other provinces, for their own provincial championship.

But the truly sad part is how few of you get what's happening.




Absolutely bang on.

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11-13-13 10:46AM
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Another boycott?

So the professional curlers want to change the Brier playdowns to suit them by switching to whatever province they wish? What can the amateur curlers to about this? Well since the professional curlers are already funded and supported to make it almost impossible for amateur curlers (which is what the Brier was supposed to be) to compete with them, perhaps the non funded curlers should boycott the playdowns as the pro curlers once did. If everyone refused to pay playdown fees, or CCA competition fees, I think the CCA would not have the money that it currently uses to fund the few elite teams. For the vast majority of all curlers to pay for a few elite teams at the top seems destined to continue to destroy competitive curling in Canada.

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11-13-13 10:59AM
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the clique of 10 top teams is getting very exclusive -

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11-13-13 12:35PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered
I'm pretty sure I didn't misinterpret what you wrote.

Either way I no longer care. Curl BC, so desperate for a decent showing at the brier, has just shown every club and dues paying member that they don't care about protecting the rights of BC male and female curlers to contest, unmolested by players from other provinces, for their own provincial championship.

But the truly sad part is how few of you get what's happening.



Has anyone asked the guys who regularly compete at provincials what they think?

I've chatted with a few of the guys that I know who are regulars at the BC provincials, and most seem indifferent to Morris competiting. They acknowledged that it will increase the level of competition (which is needed), and bring more attention to curling in BC to the general public, which is something that the sport needs.

And yes, they also acknowledge that it'll make it tougher to make it to the Brier, but I think most of the competitive guys are looking forward to the challenge rather than being upset about it.

I hear all this rage from certain people about this issue, and it sounds like it's the normal bunch of bellyachers and whiners spouting off... mostly the guys on the fringes of competitive curling or those who wouldn't know the difference in the level of curling from their Friday night social versus a WCT cashspiel.

This system for residency requirements and exemptions could be abused. So exemptions need to be looked at closely and handed out with care. But if there is a legit reason for granting an exemption in a given year, why not?

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11-13-13 01:17PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered


Has anyone asked the guys who regularly compete at provincials what they think?

I've chatted with a few of the guys that I know who are regulars at the BC provincials, and most seem indifferent to Morris competing.

This system for residency requirements and exemptions could be abused. So exemptions need to be looked at closely and handed out with care. But if there is a legit reason for granting an exemption in a given year, why not?



I like this reasoning. Sounds fair to me. Thanks for sharing your opinion.

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11-15-13 10:56PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Dec 2007
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Posts: 54

quote:
Originally posted by jcullen


I don't like it, but I do not fault any of the members of that team for it. This is something that has been happening for long enough now, they are simply taking advantage of existing rules. I have known Jim and the boys for years, have a ton of respect for them, and John entering our playdowns makes our province stronger, which I also have no issue with.

I just don't like any of the residency fudging that's happening right now, and this falls into that category, as far as I am concerned. We should be done with all of it.

The Olympics are a great thing for our sport at the elite level(exposure for top athletes, opportunity to go to the Olympics, increased international game) and at the non-curler level(exposes people to the game who may not have tried it otherwise, increases revenue for clubs with ice rental, etc.), but it is AWFUL for the game at a grassroots/local level, as it discourages many curlers from trying to get better.

People can sit back and say it's up to the curler to spend more money/time/effort to get better, but that is a very ignorant point of view. The reality is, most will discern they have no chance at ever making the Brier(especially if residency rules continue to be relaxed), and do less curling at that level, not more. The game should be coming to them at some level, they should not have to come to it.

The gap between the haves and have-nots has become nearly insurmountable, and this is coming from someone who would probably be considered a "have".



Excellent points JC, especially about the grass roots level. Lets remember we ALL started at the grass roots level. We started in a junior or school league, moved on to mens or ladies leagues, and with coaching and dedication some excelled to higher levels. Somehow this escapes the folks that run Curlbc and they seem like they could care less.

CurlBC's focus seems to be on a couple of elite teams while pretty much ignoring everyone else. The BC part of CurlBC means the whole province and all curlers, but you would never know it. How many Kevin Martins in the making just never had a chance because of the favoritism and rule changes making it easier for the current "have" teams and harder for the "Have nots"........no one wonder the good young players I talk to just roll their eyes and say they gave up, just not worth the effort. And this is what CurlBC wants, less teams entering playdowns. How sad is this?

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