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Fort Smith, NT
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11-19-14 04:45PM
runinrock is offline Click Here to See the Profile for runinrock Click here to Send runinrock a Private Message Find more posts by runinrock Add runinrock to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
runinrock
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Jul 2013
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I'm sure others have realized but I like how they wait until the day of the deadline for signups to announce the "clarification" ..... Classic

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11-20-14 08:01AM
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AlanMacNeill
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quote:
Originally posted by runinrock
Alan,

as usual you are taking your criticism of the HP staff a step too far here. (although I guess this is the negative signs thread...) Heartless and Cruel are not the right terms here.



I strongly disagree.

Leaving aside the fact that a combine chosen, exceptionally limited in scope, HPP with, apparently, adult levels of commitment for children raises a whole slew of ethical and moral issues related to youth in sports in and of itself (an argument for a far different forum), the HPP staff here has missed the mark by about a million miles.

The HPP for *adult* curlers has a single, arguably appropriate, mission: "Win a Medal in 2018 so the USOC doesn't give up on us". Well and good (well...I'd argue there's nothing "well" about the USOC's priorities there, but again, argument for another forum).

In order to do that, ugly sometimes has to happen. However, the folks who signed up for that program are adults, they are at or near the peak of their curling prowess, at this stage it can be about finding the best team and polishing them to a razor's edge...and sometimes that involves ugly choices. (I'd argue that the approach being taken is wrong and actually lessening our chances for a 2018 medal, but again, argument for another forum).

None of that applies, however, to YOUTH curling. Children, and even 18-20 year old legal adults, are not at the peak of their game. There are a large number of things which can and will change over the next 4-6 years in ever person under the age of 21, it's the nature of becoming an adult.

Youth curling programs should be about encouraging a love of the game, desire to play and achieve, and providing effective tools to grow the skills of young curlers, while maintaining at least a semblance of a life balance. Youth curlers should not be being pulled out of school for multiple weeklong events. Youth curlers should not be being told "This is going to be your team, I don't care if you don't get along with this person, they're your skip, they are the best skip we have, deal with it", and they should definitely never be told "Okay, so we're going to compile an oversized team but in about 3 months one of you is going to be cut...oh, by the way, that cut will be too late for you to find another team to play with, and in the meantime, we're going to judge you on how much of your life you set aside to pursue our agenda".

It was a bad idea from the start, and it continues to be a bad idea. The HPP has, essentially, *destroyed* a potential year of development of what is, apparently, our 6th best female youth curler.

Great way to build the game guys!

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11-20-14 10:28AM
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Gerry
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quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill


I strongly disagree.

Leaving aside the fact that a combine chosen, exceptionally limited in scope, HPP with, apparently, adult levels of commitment for children raises a whole slew of ethical and moral issues related to youth in sports in and of itself (an argument for a far different forum), the HPP staff here has missed the mark by about a million miles.



Welcome to competitive sport. It's done in Canada, these teams are playing spiels fall season, and teams play multiple weeks of competitions to get to the Worlds. If these players can balance school with sport, why can't it be done in the USA?

Kelsey Rocque interview on being a Student Athlete:
http://www.curling.ca/blog/2014/11/...ol-comes-first/

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11-20-14 10:41AM
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runinrock
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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Thanks Gerry,

Alan these are not 12 year olds... they are young adults. No participation ribbons are awarded here

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11-20-14 10:46AM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Nov 2012
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quote:
Originally posted by Gerry


Welcome to competitive sport. It's done in Canada, these teams are playing spiels fall season, and teams play multiple weeks of competitions to get to the Worlds. If these players can balance school with sport, why can't it be done in the USA?

Kelsey Rocque interview on being a Student Athlete:
http://www.curling.ca/blog/2014/11/...ol-comes-first/



Gerry,

I'm not familiar with the Canadian education system, but public schools have attendance requirements and these frequently vary by state. It is the attendance requirement, and not the student's time management, that has the greatest impact. For instance, here in New Jersey a public school student may not miss more than 20 days per school year without a medical exemption or resorting to home schooling. Private schools do not typically have attendance requirements at the trade-off of having to pay tuition to enroll/attend.

I've also mentioned before that while colleges don't usually have attendance requirements, some financial aid packages (typically academic scholarships) do carry attendance requirements which can affect one's ability to participate in multiple events over the course of a semester or school year.

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11-20-14 10:47AM
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tuck
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Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
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Alan does make valid points IF they were his children. He might advise or even insist that their lives not be sidetracked by a decade of dedicated curling. But these are not his children, nor are they convicted criminals fulfilling the sentencing of a judge.

Putting you life somewhat on hold to chase curling dreams is not new. Ask anybody that has reached the higher levels of the game. True, it has ratcheted up since attaining Olympic status. Ask the Scots, Swedes, Chinese and others that move to Canada for months at a time.

I have not problem with how the 6 person Junior Girls team was moved to 5. I have a huge problem with starting with 6. We are not a deep talent nation yet. Junior curlers can't be sitting on the bench. I have come to hate even 5 member Junior teams. Going to a competition has these youngsters on the ice for 2 games a day and little to do for the other 20 hours in that day. Now you bench a player every other game. Some of these kids are traveling a long way to play 1 game. 1 game. 2 days of travel and lots of expense to play 1 game when they should be throwing and throwing and throwing.

Speaking of expenses: It should be pointed out that the Junior HPP isn't really flush with cash this year. Outside of entries and coaching, not much is being covered. Lots of the expenses for both genders in the Junior program is coming out of pocket.

Don't get me wrong. I hate the HPP and the Junior HPP in particular. They took the top 3 Girls teams and crunched them into one team...effectively removing our depth and putting good curlers on the sidelines. Horrid. Still, we always need to keep in mind the end goal of the program: To train future Olympians. Right or wrong; good or bad; wise or foolish; they are making steps towards that goal.

Ben Tucker

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11-20-14 11:02AM
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AlanMacNeill
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quote:
Originally posted by tuck
Still, we always need to keep in mind the end goal of the program: To train future Olympians. Right or wrong; good or bad; wise or foolish; they are making steps towards that goal.

Ben Tucker



I agree with a good chunk of what you're saying in your post, but not this last sentence.

The HPP program, as currently implemented towards Junior Curlers, is not making steps towards the goal of creating future Olympians.

It is making steps towards ruining the desire of juniors under 21 to play the game competitively.

I bet that more of the current Junior HPP Group of 10 drops out of the program than participates in the 2022 Olympics.

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11-20-14 01:03PM
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americancurler
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Registered: Nov 2014
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quote:
Originally posted by CrlGrl
Here are a list junior women that applied to HPP plan;
Sarah Anderson (Broomall, Pa.)
Taylor Anderson (Broomall, Pa.)
Libby Brundage (Killingworth, Conn.)
Cory Christensen (Duluth, Minn.)
Leilani Dubberstein (Portage, Wis.)
Brittany Falk (Poynette, Wis.)
Grace Gabower (Milton, Wis.)
Jenna Haag (Milton, Wis.)
Mackenzie Lank (Lewiston, N.Y.)
Tina Persinger (Fairbanks, Alaska)

I think this is just the list of those that received the golden ticket to the Combine- Rumor has it there were other Juniors that applied but did not receive an invite to the Combine



I am a junior who applied to go to the combine, but was rejected. So you'd be correct there.

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11-20-14 02:42PM
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nom de broom
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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First, to follow up on IceMinion's reply to Gerry regarding time commitment and schooling vis-a-vis the USA and Canada:

Derek Brown is from Scotland, where he has coached elite curlers. Eve Muirhead is an elite curler. Eve turned down a couple of athletic scholarships (golf) to American universities in order to focus on curling. This is how much the lack of a university education will affect her ability to build a middle-class life in Scotland:

**crickets**

One of the things you will notice if you have a lot of friends in the UK, Ireland, and Europe generally is that the work culture is not obsessed with university degrees. To work in some professions -- finance in the City of London, law in Munich, medicine in Dublin, or to be a teacher or a nurse -- yes, sure. But the ability to support yourself, have a family, and buy a house without initials after your last name isn't limited to the skilled trades. From Derek's cultural POV, he's had no experience with an environment where you won't be hired to be the executive assistant to an executive vice president without a B.A. I don't think he fully understands what a major factor this is in junior elite curling.


quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
Youth curlers should not be being told "This is going to be your team, I don't care if you don't get along with this person, they're your skip, they are the best skip we have, deal with it", and they should definitely never be told "Okay, so we're going to compile an oversized team but in about 3 months one of you is going to be cut...oh, by the way, that cut will be too late for you to find another team to play with, and in the meantime, we're going to judge you on how much of your life you set aside to pursue our agenda".


While I am sympathetic to the third example you mention -- Gabower's situation -- replace "team" with "work group" and skip with "boss" and the idea that 18-21 year olds (which is the age group of most of the junior HPP players, I believe) should be protected from the rude meanies of adult working life -- the life that they will very shortly enter -- is why recruiting managers in my industry have mommy calling them up to ask why Special Snowflake Susie wasn't called back for a second interview.

Last edited by nom de broom on 11-20-14 at 02:44PM

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11-20-14 05:40PM
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dbsdbs
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Registered: Feb 2013
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quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill


I agree with a good chunk of what you're saying in your post, but not this last sentence.

The HPP program, as currently implemented towards Junior Curlers, is not making steps towards the goal of creating future Olympians.

It is making steps towards ruining the desire of juniors under 21 to play the game competitively.

I bet that more of the current Junior HPP Group of 10 drops out of the program than participates in the 2022 Olympics.



Tuck is usually on the mark but I have to agree with Alan on this one. Perhaps one can argue that the HPP plan is taking steps to improve USA chances of medaling in the next Olympics. But I have to believe that limiting opportunities today for more junior curlers, as the HPP junior program is doing, can only harm USA curling in the long run. We need more curlers in the funnel now to increase the talent level going forward.

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11-20-14 07:03PM
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tuck
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I hear everybody and appreciate their points of view. Still, I have to stand by my last sentence. "Right or wrong; good or bad; wise or foolish; they are making steps towards that goal."

I think the Junior High Performance Program is wrong, bad and foolish. Still, how can one deny that these 10 kids are making progress towards be future Olympians? They are playing good competition and doing very well. Coaching is available to them. They are being exposed to the Olympic culture of Colorado Springs Training Center and have access to good ice at Four Seasons.

To deny that these 10 kids aren't improving (and, therefore, advancing towards being future Olympians) seems to me that we just hate the system so much that we're denying facts and published results.

My problem is the price we are paying as too many are pushed aside.

Alan's assertion is that less than half of the current 10 curlers will be on the 2022. That's a pretty safe assertion on his part. Some (not me) would consider the program a success if 2 make the team. How do we measure the success of the program? I don't know. I do know that my measurement and those of the current decision-makers would be wildly different.

Speaking of the current decision-makers: If they remain in their positions, we'll trend more and more to selected teams. Then Alan's assertion becomes a less safe bet. They'll just pick their HPP graduates and trend away from the "win it on the ice" as that term gets defined in broader and broader ways.

Bottomline: To deny that these 10 are not progressing down a path that makes them better future Olympians is just a silly denial of quality wins.

Respectfully,
Ben Tucker

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11-20-14 07:39PM
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I agree with your assertion that this small group of players is definitely making strides. Having watched the Dropkin rink numerous times over the season, I wouldn't entirely disagree if anyone considered them the best men's team in the USA period.

However, there is a lot about what's happening that just can't be readily quantified. How many potential future junior curlers will walk away from the game far earlier because of the process? How many will look at it and think "Sheesh, this is just too much work, I'd really like to go to college"? Of those that do step away, how many had real potential to reach the elite levels? How many future national (and maybe world) champions will never come to fruition? That's one question we will never really be able to answer.

I've given it some thought, and not only do I agree that the HP program is shrinking the talent pool....I actually believe that's a desired result from the program's perspective. They do NOT want a team to win nationals (at any level) that's just a little bit better than the rest of the field. They want champions that are LEAGUES above everyone else, and one way to accomplish that goal is to concentrate the talent pool. Does it shrink growth of the sport? Absolutely. Growing the sport is not their mandate in any way. Building the best players possible is.

Simplicity: Competitive excellence and growth of the sport are two separate goals that don't really share many common aspects. However, where is the money at? Where is the notoriety at? That will tell you all you need to know.

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11-20-14 08:10PM
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dbsdbs
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Once again, Tuck, you are right. This small group from the HPP junior program may be progressing to be future Olympians. Certainly, their results so far this year are impressive. My concern, and again you said it better than I, is that too many other potential future Olympians are being pushed aside and made to feel like part of a second class of curlers, and the future of USA curling requires that we keep all of those kids interested and excited about the game. That same thing is happening with the men's and women's teams. I have heard way too many of what we used to call our "competitive curlers" complain that they are now a lower class of curlers and wonder why they should continue to compete with the decks stacked so heavily against them. This singular focus on getting Olympic medals MAY work in the very short term but I am very concerned about its long term impact.

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11-20-14 08:50PM
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The last few points certainly address the crux of the issue. Finding players dedicated enough to be interested in pursuing curling at a high level. We will lose very good competitive curlers to this process, but if they're not dedicated they will never reach the upper echelons of the sport anyways.

It takes both skill and dedication to be on teams like Niklas Edin, Thomas Ulsrud, etc and travel and compete on a full time basis. There are lots of very skilled players in the USA now, but for whatever reasons (not wrong), they choose a different (and balanced) approach to life.

To reach the elite levels of sport, you must dedicate your life to reach those goals. So when the discussion is about determining the success of the program, getting two players interested in pursuing it into adulthood is likely a positive outcome.

There's been many great players out of juniors who just gave up the game or played it in a limited role in Canada because they had other opportunities in life and made other choices.

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11-21-14 01:21PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Gerry
The last few points certainly address the crux of the issue. Finding players dedicated enough to be interested in pursuing curling at a high level. We will lose very good competitive curlers to this process, but if they're not dedicated they will never reach the upper echelons of the sport anyways.

It takes both skill and dedication to be on teams like Niklas Edin, Thomas Ulsrud, etc and travel and compete on a full time basis. There are lots of very skilled players in the USA now, but for whatever reasons (not wrong), they choose a different (and balanced) approach to life.

To reach the elite levels of sport, you must dedicate your life to reach those goals. So when the discussion is about determining the success of the program, getting two players interested in pursuing it into adulthood is likely a positive outcome.

There's been many great players out of juniors who just gave up the game or played it in a limited role in Canada because they had other opportunities in life and made other choices.



And all of these countries have regressed in numbers.

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11-21-14 02:00PM
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Gerry
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quote:
Originally posted by mgulseth


And all of these countries have regressed in numbers.



The game has changed since it's become part of the Olympics. The game has seen fewer teams competing at the elite level, but that's due to the level of commitment it now requires. Whether you like it or not, this is what is required to compete with the best in the world.

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11-21-14 04:03PM
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Not so much a game change. I played in 2 Olympics and three World Championships and I don't see it. What I do see is a big time money change with greed and the people at the top want to control every thing. As far as dedication...are you saying some of the greats of the past were not as dedicated. I call BS!!! In their prime they would do very well in todays game. Some would also do it with a flexible schedule. Not one made up by somebody who could care less. You will never be able to convince me that the my way or the highway attitude is the only way to win!!!!!!!

Last edited by brund on 11-21-14 at 04:06PM

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W: USA Curling Junior National Championships
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Draw: W6 -- Thu, Mar 28 -- 4:00pm CT
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Scheel  Watch Live Curling!
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